#123 Kerry Rowlands, CEO at Cancer Council SA on Leading with a Heart in Healthcare Artwork

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Creating Synergy Podcast

#123 Kerry Rowlands, CEO at Cancer Council SA on Leading with a Heart in Healthcare

May 16, 2024 • SynergyIQ

In this insightful episode, we sit down with Kerry Rowland, the visionary CEO of Cancer Council SA, to explore her journey through the multifaceted world of healthcare leadership.

With a career marked by empathy, innovation, and resilience, Kerry shares her profound experiences and the lessons she's learned along the way. From her early days influenced by a strong and independent mother to her pivotal roles in various organisations, Kerry's story is a testament to leading with courage and a heart.

Why You Can’t Miss This Episode:

Discover Kerry's Leadership Philosophy: Learn how Kerry's upbringing in a strong, independent family shaped her belief in doing everything with excellence and empathy.
Navigating Change with Confidence: Kerry reveals her strategies for guiding an organisation through transformation, emphasizing the importance of strong foundations and continuous adaptation.
Balancing Career and Family: Hear Kerry’s personal story of balancing a demanding career with family life, offering practical tips for maintaining harmony between work and home.
Empowering Women in the Workplace: Kerry shares her experiences and advice on overcoming gender biases and supporting women to thrive in traditionally male-dominated industries.
The Power of Community and Consumer Insights: Gain insight into how Cancer Council SA leverages community feedback to shape their services and enhance their mission of supporting cancer patients and their families.

Join us for a deep dive into Kerry Rowland’s world, where compassion meets leadership, and purpose drives success. Whether you’re an entrepreneur, a healthcare professional, or someone passionate about making a difference, this episode is for you!

TIMESTAMPS:

[03:24] - Introduction to Kerry Rowland

[04:24] - Influence of a Strong Role Model

[07:27] - Balancing Family and Career

[09:57] - Breaking Gender Stereotypes

[18:02] - Early Career Lessons at Kimberly Clark

[27:43] - Overcoming Career Challenges

[46:14] - Customer-Centered Design

[55:21] - Reflections on the Ripple Effect Program

[1:06:21] - Transition to Cancer Council SA

Tune In and Share!

Don't miss out on this enlightening conversation! Tune in and be sure to share this episode with your network and help us spread the word about the incredible work being done at Cancer Council SA. Listen and share today!

Where to find Kerry Rowlands

Books mentioned in the episode

Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow By: Gabrielle Zevin

Join the conversation on Synergy IQ on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram (@synergyiq).

Access SynergyIQ Website to get to know more about us.

Say hello to our host Daniel Franco on LinkedIn.

00:00:09:24 - 00:00:18:12
Daniel Franco
So welcome back to the Creating Synergy Podcast. Today on this show, we have the wonderful Kerry Rowlands. Welcome to the show.

00:00:18:14 - 00:00:20:04
Kerry Rowlands
Thank you very much for having me.

00:00:20:06 - 00:00:46:05
Daniel Franco
So you are now the the CEO of the Cancer Council of South Australia. That's right. And previously before that, the general manager of customer and community relations at SA water and also acted on in the CEO role multiple times over your career. Yes. You were a previous boss to me at one point. I was, which is why I'm probably more nervous than usual sitting here.

00:00:46:11 - 00:01:07:07
Daniel Franco
It's like I am going for a job interview again or something like that. But now, great to have you on the show. I'm really keen to sort of start back where, you know, when you when your life started as in essence. And so I'm really interested in what do we need to know about your earliest context to understand the person who's sitting here in front of us today?

00:01:07:09 - 00:01:27:19
Kerry Rowlands
Great question. So if we go right back, I think one of the key things that defined me both in my personal and professional off is that I grew up in a family with a single mum and my two sisters and also the youngest of three girls. I still went and saw my dad every fortnight and have a really strong relationship with him.

00:01:27:21 - 00:01:49:03
Kerry Rowlands
But my core family unit was led by a really strong independent mother, strong business person, and it taught me so much. And one of the things that I reflect on a lot about that is that there was no gender roles within my household. So I grew up with my mum just doing everything. So of course, that's what I strongly believe that I can do.

00:01:49:03 - 00:01:54:07
Kerry Rowlands
Yeah. Is everything okay? Absolutely. That's one of the really key defining things for me.

00:01:54:09 - 00:02:00:10
Daniel Franco
That's amazing. So let's just dive into your mother a little bit. What? What did she do? You say strong businesswoman. What was her background?

00:02:00:15 - 00:02:20:23
Kerry Rowlands
Also, business, commerce. She worked for the Chamber of Commerce. She worked for federal and state government. One of her key roles was that she took delegations of people from Australia over into Asia, in particular. Right. So you've context, context for them to export their product into Asia. So, yeah, really strong role model.

00:02:20:23 - 00:02:44:11
Daniel Franco
Absolutely. How old were you when your parents separated? Three, three years old. So I know no different. So you know, no different. That's right. Is there is there a memory, I guess, that you look back on like, outside of the the role modeling of your mother? And is there a memory that you look back on that that you think, actually, this was pivotal towards me and my character today?

00:02:44:12 - 00:03:15:13
Kerry Rowlands
Well, that's a tough question. If there was a moment or I think that I'll probably answer that on a personal level, and I don't think it was a particular moment, but it was the experience. So what's really important to me is that I have a really strong family unit, so both my husband and I came from families that had divorced parents and we had very happy upbringings, but we wanted to have a different experience for our family.

00:03:15:15 - 00:03:16:10
Daniel Franco
You know.

00:03:16:12 - 00:03:33:18
Kerry Rowlands
So we have a really close family unit that's more traditional in the sense that is a mother and father and two kids. But we still instill in them the really strong values around you can do whatever you want to do. So I don't know if there was a pivotal moment, but it's just more of a feeling.

00:03:33:19 - 00:03:39:19
Daniel Franco
Yeah, the you've got two kids. Yes, Girls, boys. One of each one of age. Very good. How old are they now?

00:03:39:21 - 00:03:41:04
Kerry Rowlands
21 and 19.

00:03:41:05 - 00:03:42:06
Daniel Franco
And what's their names?

00:03:42:08 - 00:03:45:14
Kerry Rowlands
You got a 21 year old and Jack 19.

00:03:45:16 - 00:04:07:23
Daniel Franco
That will be listening in to shout out to them, I guess, talking about the gender defined roles. How does that now play out in real life for you? What does that look like? You know, because it is I think you're right. There is something in that in sense of who you are today. What does that play out to you like even in your role as CEO within the Cancer Council?

00:04:07:23 - 00:04:29:09
Kerry Rowlands
I'm happy to answer it in both context and professional personally. So when I entered the workforce, I joined organizations that were male dominated, didn't really think about at the time and advanced through my career reasonably quickly. So I went into a lot of environments where I was the only female in the room, but I was quite often the youngest.

00:04:29:16 - 00:04:53:23
Kerry Rowlands
I probably thought more about being younger than I thought about being a female, and it wasn't until I became more of a leader in organizations that I could see that people, particularly young women that were working for me, had a level of reservation and their confidence was a little bit lower. And that's when I kind of recognized that not everyone feels the same as me.

00:04:53:23 - 00:04:56:09
Kerry Rowlands
I don't see myself as a female in the workplace, but I'm.

00:04:56:10 - 00:04:57:15
Daniel Franco
Just a human in the workplace.

00:04:57:15 - 00:05:20:01
Kerry Rowlands
Right on merit. Yeah, And but I certainly felt that other people needed to be given the confidence to not feel that gender bias in my private life. I and my husband share parenting, so I worked part time for ten years. That was a choice. But as my children came to the end of their schooling. Our life was really busy.

00:05:20:01 - 00:05:33:04
Kerry Rowlands
I've got a full time job. My husband's got a full on job and it was just so, so busy. And he wasn't really enjoying his work at that point in time, so we'd just quit. Lisa What do you mean? And I said, Well, we've got so much pressure in our life. Kids are at the end of the school.

00:05:33:04 - 00:05:49:23
Kerry Rowlands
There's so much going on there. Just take a couple of years off and, you know, do stuff at home. And he's like, okay. And it was amazing. And so not having these defined gender roles, you know, the House needs to have some painting done. All the lawns need to be mowed or, you know, dinner needs to be cooked.

00:05:50:00 - 00:05:58:03
Kerry Rowlands
Whoever's available does that. It's not defined gender roles within our home either, which is something that we really want to instill into our kids.

00:05:58:06 - 00:06:19:06
Daniel Franco
Yeah, I love that. I mean, I come from an Italian background, right? So you can imagine the after dinner what the table looks like because the females are in the kitchen and, and there's and you know, and the men sitting around the table still and I try to break the mold in the sense of getting up and helping because I just I don't want I actually don't want my children.

00:06:19:06 - 00:06:37:22
Daniel Franco
I've got two girls. I don't want them growing up thinking that that's their role in the kitchen. I've actually had some family dynamics play out in this scenario where I'm like, I'm not I'm not welcoming this well or my kids aren't welcome in this household, if that's how you're going to define. So I got a pretty strong stance on that.

00:06:37:22 - 00:06:59:13
Daniel Franco
So yeah, I think what you're doing is great. So kudos to you. It moving back into the sort of the business aspect of it, what what is a leading role in this space then? You know, obviously it was a bit different in the eighties and nineties and the early 2000s. But you know, we are in a world where people should be educated around the equality piece.

00:06:59:14 - 00:07:03:09
Daniel Franco
What does it look like in your perspective for ladies today?

00:07:03:13 - 00:07:07:00
Kerry Rowlands
Yeah, So unfortunately, some of that bias.

00:07:07:02 - 00:07:07:17
Daniel Franco
Without doubt.

00:07:07:22 - 00:07:14:03
Kerry Rowlands
That for me it's about what you walk past you willing to accept as individuals and as bystanders.

00:07:14:04 - 00:07:14:20
Daniel Franco
You know.

00:07:14:22 - 00:07:39:12
Kerry Rowlands
And I'm very much around if something's happening that you're not comfortable with, you actually need to say something. So I think that's really, really important. But I also think that we need to set up our businesses to support everybody. Now, that can be you can talk about females, you can talk about the traditional roles that females had with dropping the kids to school, although a lot of that seems to have balanced out over time.

00:07:39:14 - 00:08:02:04
Kerry Rowlands
But you can also look at it with responsibilities that people have for aging parents and the like. So how do we set up our workforces and our policies? Is the guide, our workforce that actually enable them to get the balance right between their their home life and their professional life. And I think that as leaders in organizations, we want absolute responsibility to, you know, policies, procedures and all of that.

00:08:02:04 - 00:08:05:08
Kerry Rowlands
You can get all of that put in place, but you've got to walk the walk.

00:08:05:08 - 00:08:05:18
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

00:08:05:19 - 00:08:18:24
Kerry Rowlands
And you got a supporter in practice. And that's what I think all leaders responsibility is, is to to give that platform to get the best outcome from your staff as well. It's all about driving staff engagement, incremental effort.

00:08:19:01 - 00:08:19:03
Daniel Franco
At.

00:08:19:06 - 00:08:20:14
Kerry Rowlands
Those things.

00:08:20:16 - 00:08:32:14
Daniel Franco
There's a lot of as you said, there is still that mentality still floats around. How do you walk the walk, though? How do you change the minds of those mentalities today?

00:08:32:16 - 00:08:54:13
Kerry Rowlands
So there's lots of different ways of doing it. But I think the most powerful one is leading by example. So you can you can have it written in paper and say, this is what we believe it might be in your strategy or in a policy you've actually got to take action against that rather than just saying, you know, let's let's think about it from a consumer perspective.

00:08:54:15 - 00:09:05:02
Kerry Rowlands
You know, customers are at the heart of everything we do. We want to support people that are in financial hardship and the lives. Well, what are you doing? Practice.

00:09:05:07 - 00:09:05:23
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

00:09:06:00 - 00:09:26:11
Kerry Rowlands
And how do you make sure that you challenge the policies and barriers that are in place to get the outcomes that you need to do? So a really bit of a cop out is to say, Well, our policy says these. Yeah, and we're not allowed to do that. Well, why? What needs to happen in society? What needs to happen with your staff?

00:09:26:13 - 00:09:35:16
Kerry Rowlands
Well, how do I make that happen? Because the guidelines might be wrong, policy might be wrong. I need to change that. And so it's actually having the courage to to push forward and do what's right.

00:09:35:22 - 00:09:53:13
Daniel Franco
Yeah. Live by your values and do it properly. Yeah, absolutely. Do what's fair and just excellent. So so going back to sort of your early days, what happens then? So you grow up growing up, young kid coming out of school. Yeah. Where do we go? What happens is a little bit more.

00:09:53:13 - 00:10:06:13
Kerry Rowlands
Background about day. So one of those kids that found most things academically quite easy, so good is good at problem solving, good numeracy, found language a little bit more difficult.

00:10:06:13 - 00:10:07:06
Daniel Franco
Yep.

00:10:07:08 - 00:10:14:01
Kerry Rowlands
Could generally wing it. Yeah, probably what it was like. So I got a test. Okay. I'm just going to rock up and do that test.

00:10:14:03 - 00:10:17:03
Daniel Franco
As long as I get a pass mark. That's all that matters pretty well, right?

00:10:17:04 - 00:10:24:05
Kerry Rowlands
I to I got to about year 11 and it became more complex and I still tried to.

00:10:24:07 - 00:10:27:12
Daniel Franco
Do that, which I think I would have done that. Yeah.

00:10:27:12 - 00:10:32:08
Kerry Rowlands
So a little bit tricky and probably got a little bit distracted with social life.

00:10:32:10 - 00:10:34:16
Daniel Franco
You know, life was pretty in the boys.

00:10:34:18 - 00:10:43:05
Kerry Rowlands
Well, going to have fun with my friends and schoolwork. Didn't really know how to study. Yeah, really know how to work really hard to get good outcomes.

00:10:43:05 - 00:10:43:18
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

00:10:43:20 - 00:10:49:12
Kerry Rowlands
Kosta three year 12. Jasper just didn't get any uni offers.

00:10:49:14 - 00:10:54:22
Daniel Franco
really? Yeah. So that was and I have the exact same scenario play out really interesting.

00:10:54:22 - 00:11:16:21
Kerry Rowlands
But you know, that's okay, what am I going to do now? So I applied to go to Taif and I did an associate diploma in accountancy found that was really easy. I don't want to do something that you find really easy. So I went and did accountancy and then got my first job as a cost accountant at a organized nation called National Paper View Pack.

00:11:16:23 - 00:11:18:15
Kerry Rowlands
Made my bread bags.

00:11:18:15 - 00:11:19:01
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

00:11:19:03 - 00:11:20:12
Kerry Rowlands
Yeah, things like that.

00:11:20:16 - 00:11:21:22
Daniel Franco
dip mold. Yes. Yeah.

00:11:21:24 - 00:11:41:14
Kerry Rowlands
Similar to that. Yeah. So I got myself a job as an accountant and yeah, it was pretty happy with that. But at a point in time, probably when I was around 23, I decided to apply to go to university. And at that point I went and did my Bachelor of Commerce at Flinders and was a mature student.

00:11:41:19 - 00:11:48:14
Daniel Franco
Okay, so what, what, what sparked that? Was the wanting more in your career or I think the ceiling of.

00:11:48:18 - 00:12:12:05
Kerry Rowlands
You couldn't do you see I couldn't do CPA, I wanted to get more of a better qualification. Missed out on the uni life. Yeah that was because when you're an adult going through uni it's different. But having said that, it was so incredibly powerful going through as a as an adult when you're working in the field because you've got all of the real life examples absolutely can draw on.

00:12:12:05 - 00:12:25:17
Kerry Rowlands
So I got a lot out of, out of my degree and then went on to do my CPA. And I remember finishing off my CPA when my daughter was one year old. So working full time, studying while.

00:12:25:19 - 00:12:26:13
Daniel Franco
Juggling so mean.

00:12:26:13 - 00:12:28:08
Kerry Rowlands
There's just a lot a lot going on.

00:12:28:08 - 00:12:48:10
Daniel Franco
There's something in that I did my MBA with the while I was working as well, and you're right, you just bring examples of your business in into it. I actually got sort of halfway through the MBA and then so actually I'm learning more in just running this business alone than what I am. So I actually I haven't finished it.

00:12:48:10 - 00:13:14:12
Daniel Franco
I've just got halfway through and yeah, because I just think the real life example. But I do remember at the time when I was doing the marketing stuff, doing this, the finance stuff, I was just bring in real life examples in and it was so much easier to learn. Would be hard for an 18 your own to to learn something when they're just stepping into this world for the first time because you don't get taught how to read a bank balance or a profit and loss statement when when you're in school, it's like, yeah, so, so what happens there?

00:13:14:12 - 00:13:21:21
Daniel Franco
So you then land a job at Kimberly-Clark after it's a big multinational? Yes.

00:13:21:21 - 00:13:45:17
Kerry Rowlands
I went there for a few years doing similar types roles. I really enjoyed that job because I was always the person that worked between the finance department and operations. Yeah, So I got to hang out with the field guys or the factory people a lot and they so insightful about what's going on. And my job was to work out how much material they were using and were the yields appropriate or not.

00:13:45:17 - 00:13:46:18
Daniel Franco
Yeah, yeah.

00:13:46:20 - 00:13:56:13
Kerry Rowlands
And yeah, there's so many really great experiences I had and I learned so much from the people that were running the machine. Yeah, and the like. So it was, it was a really wonderful experience.

00:13:56:16 - 00:14:11:06
Daniel Franco
What did you learn early on with the Kimberly-clark's? And I believe that you went into full pharmaceuticals and, and then baths is thereafter. What did you learn through those early years of your career that you think held you in good stead?

00:14:11:08 - 00:14:38:02
Kerry Rowlands
I think the what it taught me was the everybody across the organization has a role to play and have insights, and it's just wonderful to draw on those insights because it informs what you're doing. So working in isolation, you're not going to get the best outcomes that you're going to need and the relationships and sitting there in the finance department going, Well, I'm going to tell you what you can spend and what you can do.

00:14:38:04 - 00:14:56:21
Kerry Rowlands
You've actually got to build relationships across the organization to holistically get the best outcomes. So that taught me a lot. And I was very fortunate. The positions I had allowed me to do that because I was embedded in the business. So I wasn't a traditional accountant. As someone that did your tax and step accounts or anything like that.

00:14:56:21 - 00:15:28:03
Daniel Franco
So it's funny because we manage our. Q The company which I run part of our framework is Perspectives, which is seeking those perspectives and understanding those perspectives. What are people seeing? What are we hearing, What are they tasting, what I smelling, whatever it might be, because it's only then you can actually walk into change with walk into actually executing on anything because you're actually taking into those if you're if you're coming in at it, coupled with your one perspective in the likelihood of this sticking is just not going to work.

00:15:28:03 - 00:15:29:24
Daniel Franco
Right.

00:15:30:01 - 00:15:34:15
Kerry Rowlands
Yeah. Seek to understand from everybody's perspective and you going to get a much better outcome 100%.

00:15:34:17 - 00:16:01:02
Daniel Franco
And those perspectives are quite difficult sometimes to understand. If you we have an analogy which we would call the street corner analogy, right? And if you're in a if think about an intersection, a T section where there's a car accident in the middle of this T section Kerryr in one corner and I'm on the other corner looking at this car accident, we see the same car accident from two different perspectives.

00:16:01:02 - 00:16:21:08
Daniel Franco
And you saw the little black cat that ran across the road. And I saw this guy in the mobile phone slamming on his brakes and hitting the back of the car. We saw from two different perspectives. Both had different reasons to why the accident occurred. And none of us are wrong. And I think that's probably the most important thing, is that you might sit there and go, No, no, this is the way I see it.

00:16:21:08 - 00:16:28:10
Daniel Franco
And then they might come back at you and say, This is the way I see it, but no one's actually wrong in this scenario. And so understanding that's really critical.

00:16:28:15 - 00:16:38:08
Kerry Rowlands
And being open to the conversation and sometimes perspectives, you can have really robust, respectful conversations, correct? That's what you need to do. Yeah.

00:16:38:10 - 00:16:43:17
Daniel Franco
Just be human and try to understand. Like you said, it's the old Steve and Kobe seek to understand.

00:16:43:19 - 00:16:44:10
Kerry Rowlands
Definitely.

00:16:44:14 - 00:16:52:17
Daniel Franco
So what happens through the career so you're asked to get to both is I understand you met someone who. Can you tell me about that story?

00:16:52:18 - 00:17:07:17
Kerry Rowlands
Yeah, it's a really interesting story. So when I applied to work at Folding Pharmaceutical, I went through the recruitment process and I had a little bit of self-doubt. I remember going through and I was probably 24.

00:17:07:20 - 00:17:08:08
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

00:17:08:10 - 00:17:34:09
Kerry Rowlands
Had a little bit of self-doubt going through the recruitment process and didn't get the job. And I thought, okay, what can I learn out of that? Within a week I got asked to come back in because the big boss couldn't understand why I didn't progress through because my application was so strong. That gentleman's name is Peter Minto and he was one of the most supportive people through my career.

00:17:34:11 - 00:17:54:22
Kerry Rowlands
So I went into to meet Peter and I still remember the day it was folding under now in this beautiful building. And I sat down, we had a short exchange where I spoke and then he proceeded to speak about the organization for the next 40 minutes, and I didn't say a word.

00:17:54:24 - 00:18:00:07
Daniel Franco
Yeah, I'm man, this is the best year ever. Yeah, I got the job. Yeah.

00:18:00:09 - 00:18:10:08
Kerry Rowlands
So that was actually quite an awkward situation because when I started in the role, the people that I was working for didn't put me forward as the preferred candidate. Yeah, their boss had.

00:18:10:09 - 00:18:11:07
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

00:18:11:09 - 00:18:14:19
Kerry Rowlands
And so that was quite a difficult for a young person because.

00:18:14:21 - 00:18:16:11
Daniel Franco
Because you sat and listened, Right. Yeah.

00:18:16:13 - 00:18:35:00
Kerry Rowlands
Well that is also they didn't want me. Yeah. But I mean there so it was quite an awkward situation and within a few months the, my boss came and said, I just want to let you know that I think you're amazing in this role. And that was I made the wrong decision right in front. I'm so glad that Peter came in and did that.

00:18:35:01 - 00:18:41:03
Daniel Franco
Did you ever find out why they didn't put you to. I didn't want to go there. Yeah. I just leave it at the happy.

00:18:41:05 - 00:19:05:14
Kerry Rowlands
But Peter, he gave me opportunity, so he must have seen something in me. And there were opportunities that I worked really, really hard to be successful in. And there were times when I remember walking into meetings just feeling like an absolute imposter, You know? I'm walking in this group and primarily men really experienced in the sector, and I'm thinking, don't, don't answer a question.

00:19:05:16 - 00:19:24:03
Kerry Rowlands
You just are needed the time to build my confidence. But I did and I was really, really successful and my career advanced through folding. I ended up they got to taken over and as finance manager, by the time that happened and I was in a position where they were happy for me to stay in Adelaide and do the role.

00:19:24:03 - 00:19:42:21
Kerry Rowlands
But all of the operations would go to Melbourne and I found it really difficult to not have people that I was with. Yeah, so Peter Minto had left, he'd gone to Alfas and he said, Come work for me and be my, my finance manager. And I thought, what a great opportunity, because folding was a very large organization as a finance manager for one part of the business.

00:19:43:00 - 00:20:07:01
Kerry Rowlands
Yeah, I was going to be the finance manager for, for the whole business and what an amazing experience that was. And so I was a balthus so for actually was there for about eight months. And then I went off and had my daughter and came back. And when I came back it was a little bit different. So I made a decision at that point in time to look for something different and just put a call out to my network to say, I'm looking for three days a week.

00:20:07:05 - 00:20:24:24
Kerry Rowlands
This is what my skill set is. And I got a few different leads to follow up on. But again, Peter meant I said, I've got I've now to say water and I've got so many things that I need to do. I'd really love for you to come and do that part time. And, and so I went, That's how I ended up.

00:20:25:01 - 00:20:29:23
Kerry Rowlands
And once I water before my 18 years of time spent there.

00:20:30:00 - 00:20:57:12
Daniel Franco
Very good. Now there's so much to just drop back to your first meeting with Peter I think you know the Dale Carnegie How to win Friends and Influence People. There is literally a whole chapter in that book where it's saying like, and he uses this example. He goes, You can go to a, a you know, a party or an event or something like that and talk to someone for an hour, right where you then speak for 5 minutes and they speak for 55 minutes and they'll walk away thinking that's the best conversation that they've ever had.

00:20:57:12 - 00:21:16:21
Daniel Franco
And that's like, it's funny because that actually So the art of listening. Yes. And downloading people's information is actually a skill. I mean, I do it every time we get into this podcast. It is it is actually something that that work works and is of benefit. So yeah you got to is with the old saying you go to is in one mouth so you should.

00:21:16:23 - 00:21:33:04
Daniel Franco
Yeah. Use it to that proportion. You said then that and I don't know how much you want to dive into this so feel free to jump over it if you have to. But you said that bath. Is it changed? What what what was it What was it that just said? You said, now I can't work here anymore.

00:21:33:09 - 00:21:42:06
Kerry Rowlands
There were a couple of things. I probably one of the things that they were really struggling with was financial cash flow.

00:21:42:11 - 00:21:43:06
Daniel Franco
Okay.

00:21:43:08 - 00:21:53:06
Kerry Rowlands
And they soon after I left, they got bought out. So being the finance manager, I found a little bit uncomfortable in terms of trying to manage that really tight cash flow.

00:21:53:07 - 00:22:01:05
Daniel Franco
Yeah, because it's such an iconic brand, right? I can still, I think I reckon I got a couple of their products in my freezer at home. Well, it's a dangerous.

00:22:01:05 - 00:22:06:09
Kerry Rowlands
Place to work because you go into the lunchroom and there's a pie will full of pies.

00:22:06:09 - 00:22:06:23
Daniel Franco
And imagine a.

00:22:07:01 - 00:22:08:22
Kerry Rowlands
Cake display full of cakes.

00:22:08:22 - 00:22:10:02
Daniel Franco
I can imagine. So I.

00:22:10:02 - 00:22:11:01
Kerry Rowlands
Tried to, I tried to.

00:22:11:01 - 00:22:21:00
Daniel Franco
Say yeah, not good for the waistline. So Peter has an attempt to bring you over to, say, water and he's successful again. And you start in that role. In what capacity?

00:22:21:02 - 00:22:32:15
Kerry Rowlands
So I worked as a manager of commercial projects. Okay. So that would be from a a level position, probably a level four, So a manager level position in a large organization.

00:22:32:15 - 00:23:01:06
Daniel Franco
Frontline Manager. Yeah. And you work up your way to be where am I here. I've got I've got some statistics around the role in which you were working. You work up to be the general manager of customer community relations, which which is a huge role 24 seven customer care, 30,000 calls per month, 400,000 bills per month. And I say, what is such a critical place for your business for South Australia?

00:23:01:08 - 00:23:14:22
Daniel Franco
And as a result, you became known as a champion in customer centered design. So how do you get from here? Yeah, I'm keen to explore how you've gone through that process.

00:23:15:02 - 00:23:18:17
Kerry Rowlands
Yeah, it's a really good question and sometimes I reflect on it and think how did that?

00:23:18:18 - 00:23:20:13
Daniel Franco
Yeah, that went and that'll happen.

00:23:20:15 - 00:23:33:06
Kerry Rowlands
So let me try and run through that as succinct as I can. So there are a few things I spoke about Peter Minto being really pivotal in my career. There was also a gentleman by the name of Neil White who was one of the general managers.

00:23:33:06 - 00:23:34:18
Daniel Franco
And Neil Yeah.

00:23:34:20 - 00:23:48:16
Kerry Rowlands
He was, he was a fantastic mentor to me. So when I was doing one of my projects, one of my commercial projects for part of the business, it was part of the business that he ran and he came and said to me, Can you come and be my commercial manager?

00:23:48:17 - 00:23:49:12
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

00:23:49:14 - 00:24:11:03
Kerry Rowlands
And I said, Well, I can, but I'm trying to get pregnant at the moment. So that might be I might need to take some time off. And we agreed that I would wait until I had had my second child. Yeah. And when I came back from maternity leave after having Jack, Neil and I had another conversation, he said, I'd love for you to come and be my commercial manager three days away.

00:24:11:03 - 00:24:32:22
Kerry Rowlands
It's fine because I was really clever. That's all I can offer at the moment because that was a balance that I needed from a personal and professional perspective. And I started working as a commercial manager in the business fast forward a few years, took a strong interest in business development, so I was doing all of the business cases that supported all the proposals for business development.

00:24:32:24 - 00:24:57:05
Kerry Rowlands
And the gentleman that was going to be leaving, retiring, Neil, asked if I would be interested in shadowing him to be in a position to be successful in winning that role, which I was. And so I stepped into doing business development, which was great. So I took my skills that I had learned through my career of being the finance person in the business, doing all of the stakeholder to doing that externally.

00:24:57:09 - 00:25:12:21
Kerry Rowlands
And so again, I just spent my time seeking to understand what the customers wanted out of the arrangement. And then I'd lie in that with what we needed out of the arrangement, I'd see where there was agreement and where they wasn't. I'd work to come to resolution. It's pretty.

00:25:12:24 - 00:25:14:06
Daniel Franco
Basic sort of.

00:25:14:08 - 00:25:39:04
Kerry Rowlands
Formula. So I went into the business development. I do also remember that when I was in the commercial manager role, I remember having a conversation with Neil saying, At some point, do you think that you'd give me an opportunity to act as the general manager? And he kind of looked at me a bit, taken back and he said, Well, maybe, maybe we'll say and probably needed to get a few more runs on the board, probably the language that he would have used with me.

00:25:39:06 - 00:25:40:06
Daniel Franco
But you ask the question.

00:25:40:06 - 00:25:47:19
Kerry Rowlands
But I ask the question and he took it seriously. And there were a few things that I needed to develop in. But at a point in time he said, Can.

00:25:47:19 - 00:25:48:10
Daniel Franco
You.

00:25:48:12 - 00:25:59:04
Kerry Rowlands
Can you act for me while I go away? And notorious sea water. Bad things always happen when people go on late. Yeah, on a Friday afternoon. It always happens.

00:25:59:04 - 00:26:00:19
Daniel Franco
So Murphy's Law.

00:26:00:21 - 00:26:15:24
Kerry Rowlands
it's just so annoying. So I went into business development and started doing lots of the acting for Neil when he wasn't around. And then in 2013 there was a big shake.

00:26:15:24 - 00:26:17:03
Daniel Franco
Up.

00:26:17:05 - 00:26:37:03
Kerry Rowlands
As I water and there was some general managers that left the business and John rang him. The then chief executive, after that announcement had been made, came and saw me and asked me to step into the role in an acting capacity while they went through a recruitment process, which was an absolute privilege to have that responsibility be asked to do that.

00:26:37:05 - 00:26:44:04
Kerry Rowlands
But it was really bittersweet. I found it incredibly difficult to step into a role that Neil was in that he was no longer.

00:26:44:06 - 00:26:45:01
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

00:26:45:03 - 00:27:09:01
Kerry Rowlands
And I remember ringing him that night and, you know, saying, I'm sorry, this is how this has gone. This is what's happened. I've been asked to step into this role. And he said, Well, I couldn't think of a better person to do it. And you need to do everything that you can to win that role ongoing. And I'll do everything that I can to support you in doing that, which was just so incredibly generous of him.

00:27:09:03 - 00:27:26:21
Kerry Rowlands
And yes, I went through the recruitment process. I did have a really interesting conversation with my husband because I was still, even though I was doing the business development, I think I was point nine, I was still doing some of the pay cuts of the kids. And I said, this is an opportunity that's coming my way. It's got to be right for our family.

00:27:26:21 - 00:27:52:11
Kerry Rowlands
What do you think? And he said, You've worked so hard for it. Now's the time for you to step forward and I'll lean in more with the kids. And so we had this slight shift in roles within our home, and it enabled me to step in and do the general management role, which was leading the customer and community relations division, and that was the start of my general manager.

00:27:52:11 - 00:28:27:10
Kerry Rowlands
But it's a it's a really weird position to be in to progress through an organization the size of, say, water, from a manager to a senior manager to a general manager. It's really, really tricky. I don't share one one insight that I had was before I was a general manager. I wasn't always right. People would challenge me. I took on a general manager role and all of a sudden everything I said was right and everybody agreed with that and I had to call my time in and said last week I wasn't right all the time.

00:28:27:12 - 00:28:36:03
Kerry Rowlands
How come I'm right all the time now you need to not change the way that you interact. You need to call it when it needs to be cold.

00:28:36:03 - 00:28:36:17
Daniel Franco
Yeah, You've.

00:28:36:17 - 00:28:45:15
Kerry Rowlands
Got permission to do that. I kind of felt like I had to give them permission, which sounds really, really weird, but there's is kind of this hierarchy that comes into play.

00:28:45:15 - 00:28:47:22
Daniel Franco
Yeah, we don't want a conforming culture right now.

00:28:47:22 - 00:28:51:14
Kerry Rowlands
I would say that's not me at all. And so that's how I ended up leading.

00:28:51:14 - 00:28:52:12
Daniel Franco
A Yeah.

00:28:52:16 - 00:28:53:01
Kerry Rowlands
Customer.

00:28:53:01 - 00:29:17:03
Daniel Franco
Division. I think that's such an important insight. What you've just said then though, in regards to leadership and that belief that leaders are always right, you come back, comes back to perspectives. Well, this is my perspective and this is how I see it should be done. And I'm in the leadership role. Therefore, do as I say. And I like that that style of leadership just gets you nowhere.

00:29:17:05 - 00:29:36:15
Daniel Franco
And so I think, yeah, it is amazing that you can go that and, and the vulnerability that it takes to say, I'm not always right, Please can you challenge this like I want and that's kind of what I ask to the team here as well. So I actually want you to challenge me on this one because I'm just thinking that this might be the scenario, but I don't actually know.

00:29:36:17 - 00:29:58:20
Daniel Franco
So that vulnerabilities important. Well, not just cast back to New bringing you on in that management role at three days a week. I think there is a I'm struggling as I was doing sort of research for this guy knew this beforehand. Right. So I'm been thinking about how to ask this question without belittling anyone or anything like that.

00:29:58:22 - 00:30:25:14
Daniel Franco
But there is I am I do think it's important that we talk a little bit. There are people in this world and we mentioned earlier, still people in this world who have this gender and role, diversity and viewpoint on the world. And these people might argue that, you know, you you saying, no, no, I want to work three days a week, I want to raise a family, could impact your ability to professional advancement.

00:30:25:16 - 00:30:46:19
Daniel Franco
They could argue that there's lack of career commitment. My question like I said, I'm struggling to figure how to ask this, but I think you know where I'm going with it. How do you respond to the critics who hold that view right. How do you what would you say to those who believe that these choices actually perpetuate stereotypes in the workplace?

00:30:46:23 - 00:30:48:10
Daniel Franco
Don't you understand what I'm trying to ask here?

00:30:48:15 - 00:31:08:01
Kerry Rowlands
So let me share with you a comment that one person made to me that was in a very senior position. So I went into their office, their general manager level position to talk to them is when I was in the commercial manager position three days a week, and he said to me, Karie, do you have children? And I said, Yes, I've got ia4 year old and a two year old.

00:31:08:05 - 00:31:35:02
Kerry Rowlands
Well, what are you doing with them while you're here? Why aren't you at home with your children and I said what I'm saying, What do you mean? And he said, Well, my wife, she was home with our children when they needed her. And I just went, my children are very well rounded. I have amazing support through the childcare center and just completely discounted what his view was.

00:31:35:04 - 00:31:37:19
Daniel Franco
As if as if you weren't a good mother because you.

00:31:37:19 - 00:31:53:11
Kerry Rowlands
Yeah, Yeah. I'm sorry. I actually don't let people's views and I didn't let people's views affect me at all. I actually just discounted them because I thought that they were very narrow and I thought I don't have time in my have capacity and time to waste on that.

00:31:53:17 - 00:32:06:00
Daniel Franco
Right. Gratitude and maybe that's the best answer. Just disregard. But in a world where we want to see change, we want to see these viewpoints tarnished and yeah, so.

00:32:06:00 - 00:32:38:09
Kerry Rowlands
I've spent a lot of time helping women through their career in terms of that work life balance. And what I always say to them is the first thing that you need to do is work out what is right for you and your family. And it's different for everybody. For us, it worked out three days a week was perfect, but I had a girlfriend that when her child was two, she wanted to go back to work full time and the amount of criticism that she got was huge and said, We just got to actually dismiss that because that's not about you, that's about them.

00:32:38:11 - 00:32:57:03
Kerry Rowlands
So what suits your family, your work, and you just need to be really clear about that. This is what I'm willing to do and this is what I'm not willing to do. And this is why and I'm always I'm a big believer, work out what's right for you, but be really transparent about it.

00:32:57:05 - 00:33:24:00
Daniel Franco
Yes, great. And we've had on a previous podcast, she's the CEO of the Civil Contractors Federation, South Australia, and Rebecca Pickering, who went back to work seven days, I believe it was seven days after her. And because she and her husband made that choice, her husband at the time they separated, but the husband at the time made that choice, that that was what was best for their family And the amount of criticism that she got as you can imagine.

00:33:24:06 - 00:33:46:01
Daniel Franco
But, you know, unless, you know, context, it comes back to any situation, unless you know, context or someone's perspective, you it's really difficult to make a decision. You put yourself in other shoes. So thanks. Thank you for sharing that. How did you at the time? Because I really love that I'm a family first. Like my my family means everything.

00:33:46:01 - 00:34:07:17
Daniel Franco
And I always struggle with the balancing act of what would be, you know, being a great father and being there for my wife and my children. How did you create harmony between these two worlds? And I mean, have and even today, have you have you figured that out? I know your kids are a bit older now, but have you where did you land with that?

00:34:07:19 - 00:34:19:17
Kerry Rowlands
So there were a few things that I did. So right up front I worked out what I could do. It was three days and then I also spoke to my manager and spoke about school. Holidays are a bit of a nightmare.

00:34:19:19 - 00:34:21:16
Daniel Franco
Right? We're in them right now. Yeah.

00:34:21:18 - 00:34:30:23
Kerry Rowlands
And so when you got little kids, I didn't want my kids to go to Osh. Yeah, the whole of school holidays. So what I negotiated with my manager was that I would purchase leave.

00:34:31:02 - 00:34:31:18
Daniel Franco
Yep.

00:34:31:20 - 00:34:53:06
Kerry Rowlands
And so I had one week off. Every school holidays was planned a year in advance, one week off every school holidays, not take four weeks. At Christmas. We would work together and work out how we'd cover that off. So really planned no surprises. And I got to have the balance with the kids, but also have that professional stimulation, which is what I needed.

00:34:53:08 - 00:35:06:11
Kerry Rowlands
We also made a decision that we travel a lot with the kids and we do that from going away camping, as in Bush camping. Yeah, I range bikes on caravan, you know, go and.

00:35:06:12 - 00:35:07:06
Daniel Franco
That shows.

00:35:07:08 - 00:35:09:01
Kerry Rowlands
Well with solar power.

00:35:09:01 - 00:35:11:10
Daniel Franco
Yeah. Yeah. So so really really.

00:35:11:10 - 00:35:11:21
Kerry Rowlands
Back to.

00:35:11:21 - 00:35:12:22
Daniel Franco
Basics.

00:35:12:24 - 00:35:32:09
Kerry Rowlands
Through to going overseas for four weeks or five weeks with them we just alternate between different holidays going off to Asia for two weeks. So that was what was really important to us. We worked full time, but we would have really high quality holidays. We would teach the kids that you don't have to spend a lot of money to have great time.

00:35:32:11 - 00:35:36:15
Kerry Rowlands
But there are things that we want to experience around the world. So we'd do them all differently.

00:35:36:15 - 00:35:37:06
Daniel Franco
Yeah, right.

00:35:37:06 - 00:36:00:16
Kerry Rowlands
Every time. So and it meant that when we were on those holidays, we had the dedicated time. And I would also make sure from a work perspective that I handed over everything. And one of the thing that I'll share with you, particularly as I became more senior and the demands became a lot greater, and one of the portfolios that I had is I water.

00:36:00:16 - 00:36:33:21
Kerry Rowlands
I had all of the field operations from across the state. And so any major incident around water main breaks in the logs, if it was major, I was pretty much on a call. So there were times when I did have to lean in, but I had a really strong work ethic and that was that. During the week I'll do whatever needs to happen Friday o'clock, 5:00 through to Monday, 8:00, Unless there was an emergency, I wouldn't be working so that we can time was 100% dedicated to my family.

00:36:33:21 - 00:36:40:01
Kerry Rowlands
Yeah. As you know, when you come more senior in organizations, you went 24 seven. Yeah. The work never runs out.

00:36:40:07 - 00:36:40:16
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

00:36:40:20 - 00:36:49:12
Kerry Rowlands
So you've got to give yourself those really clear boundaries about how do you make sure that you've got that your personal life is given priority.

00:36:49:15 - 00:37:09:07
Daniel Franco
What about at night time family dinners? Did you did you set back? I mean, because so many of us logging back on and, you know, you can work from home these days and it's all it's just so more connected now than it ever has been. How do you how do you switch off at night time? Yeah.

00:37:09:09 - 00:37:13:21
Kerry Rowlands
So ever since they were able to eat normal food.

00:37:14:00 - 00:37:15:03
Daniel Franco
Yes, I'm solid.

00:37:15:06 - 00:37:18:10
Kerry Rowlands
So we have had dinner together every night.

00:37:18:12 - 00:37:19:08
Daniel Franco
Yeah, right.

00:37:19:10 - 00:37:36:09
Kerry Rowlands
So I tell you, on we sit around the dining room table, we all eat beautiful dinner together. We all like the same things, like my poor kids. And I remember my daughter when she was even in a highchair. She was having chicken curry and hot. Yeah, hot and just blow on it. And then he's had a mouthful and he's like.

00:37:36:11 - 00:37:40:10
Daniel Franco
Wow, that is spicy chili. Yeah, that's hot. Hot or just hot. Yeah.

00:37:40:14 - 00:37:48:09
Kerry Rowlands
But even now, my both my kids do live at home. Yeah. When they're not working because they've got part time jobs and we still have dinner together.

00:37:48:09 - 00:37:48:24
Daniel Franco
It was fabulous.

00:37:49:01 - 00:38:05:06
Kerry Rowlands
Most nights and sit around and we one of the things I would quite often say, I remember when they were little, we'd sit around the table and I'd say, What's the best thing that happened to you today so you could get out of this drama of, you know, this happened, this happened, and it made them think about, well, this happened, so let's have a positive.

00:38:05:08 - 00:38:06:21
Daniel Franco
The gratitude. Yeah.

00:38:06:24 - 00:38:10:20
Kerry Rowlands
So we've always and we still love today and yeah really cherish that time still.

00:38:10:22 - 00:38:32:08
Daniel Franco
Yeah. I ask a similar question which is what was one thing you learned today. Yeah. So during the day they're actually trying to think about what am I going to learn today? Yeah, which is crazy, you know, it's all about one step getting one step better every day. I want to talk to you about the I mean, I mentioned it earlier, how you've been described as this customer centered design champion.

00:38:32:10 - 00:38:52:03
Daniel Franco
And I mean, this something that sounds so obvious. And when we spoke last, you said to me that, you know, again, same thing, you seek to understand the perspectives of those and the community or your customer or whatever it might be, and then bring it back and then design a design the work design the, the, the work in which you do for them.

00:38:52:06 - 00:39:08:13
Daniel Franco
How come I mean, like I said, this seems so obvious to me. How come businesses fail so badly at it and they stick to what they know? They do things the way it's always been done and not seek to understand who which they're trying to serve as.

00:39:08:13 - 00:39:27:08
Kerry Rowlands
A very general response to that. People think that they expert and they know better. And what happens is time and time again, people are surprised with what people what the customer wants, how different it is to what the person that's got so much more knowledge thinks the customer wants.

00:39:27:09 - 00:39:30:11
Daniel Franco
Yeah, this is the logical option. This is yeah.

00:39:30:16 - 00:39:59:19
Kerry Rowlands
Yes, I it's my experience of being inside water and being tasked with changing the culture from engineering focus to customer focus. That was kind of my, my remit from taking on the job. You've got to have leadership from the top with that belief for a couple of reasons. Otherwise you end up just talking the talk, which was not walking the walk, but there's funding associated with doing consumer engagement.

00:39:59:21 - 00:40:19:15
Kerry Rowlands
So if you're doing a capital project and you need to go and talk to consumers, you've got to allocate money to go and talk to people. Customer Yeah, and people want to use that for infrastructure or other things, but it actually ends up costing you a lot more in the long run because you have to go and change things on it.

00:40:19:17 - 00:40:42:09
Kerry Rowlands
We were designing the new build as a water and so we got people to come in and do a focus group and we said to them, Bring your favorite bill. Show us what it is. Okay, now here's a pair of scissors and some sticky tape. You cut them all out and make up a bill that's got the stuff that you want to say on it and tell you it was completely different to what the team had come up with.

00:40:42:14 - 00:41:08:15
Daniel Franco
That's amazing. Who was holding onto their bills? Yeah, that's. That's the first thing that went through a few years ago now in paper. Yeah. Sorry. That's not the only thing I got out of that. Well, what was some I mean, that's. That's a great story. Well, was there any other experiences? I know, I know you've got probably thousands of them, but what was something that sticks in your mind where you thought to yourself actually that that's what good customer service looks like?

00:41:08:17 - 00:41:31:11
Kerry Rowlands
This is probably a couple of examples. I talk quite holistically and then I'll go to a specific example. We within the water industry, we're really changing that mindset. And so it's I water for their regulatory determination, decided to be it to be consumer informed for the first time. And so I was tasked with leading the consumer engagement. It was a massive piece of work.

00:41:31:13 - 00:41:41:23
Kerry Rowlands
It was really interesting because we went out to the broad consumers and, you know, when you've got a population of 1.7 million people that you're servicing, there's lots and lots of different perspectives.

00:41:41:23 - 00:41:42:16
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

00:41:42:18 - 00:41:59:21
Kerry Rowlands
So you go out and map what's important to your consumers you bring that back, you do some work on it and then you take it back out to the consumer groups. I might be three focus groups and you are specific questions. How long do you think it's reasonable to take for a crew to get out to repair a leaking meter?

00:41:59:21 - 00:42:17:01
Kerry Rowlands
How long do you think it's reasonable for a crew to come out to have something that's causing property damage, generalize things and ask lots of questions? Well, how much are you willing to pay for that? So you get into this. This is what I want, but there's a cost associated with it. So you do this willingness to pay analysis as well.

00:42:17:01 - 00:42:34:01
Kerry Rowlands
You take that back into your organization, you develop business cases, and then you go back out to the consumers again and say, this is what you told me. I've put it all together. This is what it looks like. Do you agree with it or not? So that was the first time in the water industry in Australia that that had been done.

00:42:34:03 - 00:43:10:19
Kerry Rowlands
And it was so incredibly powerful. So what it meant was our submission. So in effect, our four year budget that we put through to the regulator, it meant the projects were in there. We had the broad community's support to do. Yeah, if I think about it in the context of running a call center and a billing system and all of those sorts of things like to say water when we put in our customer relationship management system didn't have one previously, we co-designed that with frontline staff, so frontline staff would come and say what we would say to them.

00:43:10:19 - 00:43:35:15
Kerry Rowlands
What do you think of this screen? What do you want to see on this screen? How do you want this to work? And so you had these agents that are on the phone all day designing with the project team, what the screens are going to be looking like. So what that means is when you actually go to implement it, they're across it, they're accepting it, but they're also advocating their their change champion within their business group.

00:43:35:17 - 00:43:39:21
Kerry Rowlands
The means of the transition to go live is so much easier.

00:43:39:23 - 00:43:40:19
Daniel Franco
Much easier.

00:43:40:21 - 00:43:42:15
Kerry Rowlands
So, I mean, there just a couple of examples.

00:43:42:15 - 00:44:08:18
Daniel Franco
Yeah. Seeking to understand, you know I interested in more from I mean I've been a big part of our listener base is entrepreneurs, small business owners as well who you know, thinking about customer centered design and building a product or service around that when there's lack of cash and availability. Right. Like I guess I would a you could argue you could just go ask for the money to do it and you can build a business case and you could.

00:44:08:20 - 00:44:27:18
Daniel Franco
Whereas with small business entrepreneurship, cash availability is not there. Therefore it becomes I need to be more niche, I need to be more specific, and I'm not worried about those who sit outside of the mainstream of what I'm trying to deliver. So do you have any advice for those people in this?

00:44:27:20 - 00:44:36:13
Kerry Rowlands
I don't think it needs to cost a lot of money. I think it's just about engaging people and bringing them on the journey. So as you know, I work for a not for profit. Yeah.

00:44:36:19 - 00:44:37:11
Daniel Franco
Yes.

00:44:37:13 - 00:44:56:24
Kerry Rowlands
We're doing a survey at the moment. Yeah. Which we're looking at the unmet needs of people that are going through a cancer journey or a carer or somebody going through a cancer journey that's not costing as much money. We're sending a survey out and asking our contacts to send it out to their databases as well so that we can get enough information to then go and use that.

00:44:56:24 - 00:45:18:13
Kerry Rowlands
So what I would say is do fit for purpose for your organization. Yeah. And You can also reach in and tap into your resources that you have, your networks, see what other people are doing, see what information already exists that you can build on. But what I would strongly advocate against is not doing it at all. Like you have to do something.

00:45:18:15 - 00:45:26:22
Kerry Rowlands
Yeah, not do. Yeah, I think it's for me it's it just shows a bit of arrogance. If you if you don't go and talk to your consumers about what they want.

00:45:27:02 - 00:45:47:07
Daniel Franco
Yeah. Correct. And it, it is the start up mindset where it's very much around trial implement, get feedback, come back fix get feedback, come back fix which is to your point, which is so you and I will talk about a little bit changing in what you said there. And I'm interested to sort of dive into that topic a little bit further.

00:45:47:07 - 00:46:27:14
Daniel Franco
But you and I got to know each other a little bit more over what was a very, very big program change program for, say, water called the Ripple Effect, which we which we helped deliver in 2017. It was it was a huge program, had such amazing buy in from the the senior leadership team cohort like yourself and the CEO was that I think every we had 30 was 37 to day workshops across the whole of it I think is 2000 plus people across the whole of say water and the CEO was at every one of those sessions, but two because he had to fly back to France I think for a family funeral there was

00:46:27:14 - 00:46:53:16
Daniel Franco
a senior leadership representative, one or two of you and every single session, I mean, the commitment to leading through this was was fabulous. I'm really interested in your thoughts around it because engagement levels went up by 10% at the end of this. It was like a 12 month program. The place was a lot with optimism in, you know, challenging the status quo and challenging the way it was new vision that was new values like it was.

00:46:53:16 - 00:47:05:14
Daniel Franco
It was a fantastic program. What makes you think when you look back at that? I think they still talk about the fact that I what makes what did you learn from that that program in its own.

00:47:05:14 - 00:47:16:00
Kerry Rowlands
Right on the onset. I'm incredibly proud of that program and I'll ask you a question, if I might. Yeah. How did you feel during that time being an employee of say, Water?

00:47:16:04 - 00:47:38:17
Daniel Franco
Well, it was I mean, I was one of the delivering it right. And so I was there in front of everyone delivering it. And and the buzz was just because it was the the feeling of empowerment. We're actually allowed to have a voice here. And I'm sitting next to Kerry Rowlands, the the general manager who's like six up for me or five up for me.

00:47:38:17 - 00:48:11:01
Daniel Franco
And she's here in her jeans and a t shirt like a normal human person. She's a real person, right? And not to mention, you know, I mean, the environment we were in, which was at Adelaide Oval and like it was an amazing program. But yeah, as as an employee at the time I was delivering that program, you would had I remember this, I remember this guy came up to me, blue collar out, out in the middle of the sticks, wearing pipes, you know, above ground pipes all day long.

00:48:11:04 - 00:48:23:16
Daniel Franco
And he said to me, I've never felt like my voice was heard here at this company into this program. Yeah. And I think, like, those were the that feedback is what we were getting every time.

00:48:23:16 - 00:48:50:07
Kerry Rowlands
Exactly what I experienced as well. So I just felt this uplift of the workforce empowerment. But you hit the nail on the head. You actually care about me and you want to hear what I have to say. And there were people that came and spoke to me that they've never to a GM before in their life and they were quiet, you know, Is it okay?

00:48:50:07 - 00:48:51:14
Kerry Rowlands
I'm of course it's okay.

00:48:51:14 - 00:48:52:10
Daniel Franco
Yeah, what's.

00:48:52:10 - 00:49:11:16
Kerry Rowlands
Up? And they were sharing things. The you know, there was some things got shared with me consistently and I always look for themes when I'm talking to people that they had a voice and I was able to follow up on some things that weren't making their way out. The more you get the same well saying you get in an organization, the more filtered information is.

00:49:11:16 - 00:49:30:22
Kerry Rowlands
Yeah. And so I spent a lot of my career going out and talking to Frontline staff because I needed to build trust with them. I needed to show them that I care. And if there's something that they want to talk to me about, that's a platform for them to be able to talk to me about. And I'm not looking for individual grievances or anything like that.

00:49:30:24 - 00:50:05:03
Kerry Rowlands
What I'm looking for is patterns so that I can do my job better. But I can also take that voice into the executive table because I think it's so incredibly powerful. And that was a platform like Rebase lined up behavioral expectations, values. I gave people tools on how to work ways of working. So the program itself was fabulous in terms of what it gave people, but the connectivity that we got out of it and it was not only with our direct employees, but also with all our contractors.

00:50:05:05 - 00:50:08:17
Kerry Rowlands
And and I loved it. And I used to go to a lot of them myself. Walk down.

00:50:08:19 - 00:50:09:22
Daniel Franco
Yes.

00:50:09:24 - 00:50:17:08
Kerry Rowlands
Yeah. To sit in the back. A lot of them, I just sit in the back and listen because I was just so fascinated to hear what people's perspectives were from across the organization.

00:50:17:10 - 00:50:39:24
Daniel Franco
Yeah, I can. You were one of the most I mean, Simon was it was pretty much said every single one of them as head of people and culture. But you were I think you were second is second in line to that. And to be honest, like I said, that I mean, the I just I just remember the feeling within the business, even after it was just it was on the up.

00:50:40:00 - 00:51:05:16
Daniel Franco
It was actually we're getting listened to here. It was so important it went that well that actually Michelle and I went out and started our business off the back of it. And we spoke to Rock and said, Are you happy? And he's like, No conflict. It's all good. So it was a it was a really amazing thing. So with with so much change in the world, I mean, taking that as an example of what was a great change program, there's so much change in the world at the moment.

00:51:05:22 - 00:51:16:19
Daniel Franco
Businesses need to constantly adapt. What emphasis do you place now in in your role as CEO on on taking in leading your organization through change?

00:51:16:21 - 00:51:25:14
Kerry Rowlands
I think the NSA at this point in time has to be on a transition trans formation journey all the time.

00:51:25:16 - 00:51:27:22
Daniel Franco
It it's a constantly evolving that.

00:51:27:24 - 00:51:55:19
Kerry Rowlands
I don't think any of us are sitting still and just saying, let's just do business as usual. Let's just do the status quo, because there's competitive challenges for us in the not for profit world. There's financial sustainability, there's challenges around retaining employees. So and consumer expectations, they're changing. So I think that we're always need to evolve our businesses.

00:51:55:19 - 00:52:13:06
Kerry Rowlands
The one thing that I do and I did say water and I certainly did this when I came into the Cancer Council was to really define what's our future state, what's our baseline, where are we right now? I need to understand exactly where we are right now, and I need to work with the board to develop a desired future state.

00:52:13:08 - 00:52:36:23
Kerry Rowlands
And I needed in the first period of time to get all the foundations right within Cancer Council. Because I'm a big believer, if you don't have the foundations right, you can go and do things, but it's going to come crashing down. So you might need to spend a short period of time and you might think, this isn't going fast enough, but spend the time, get the foundations right, and then you need to work out how you can move with pace to take you to your future state.

00:52:37:00 - 00:52:39:16
Kerry Rowlands
So constantly transitioning.

00:52:39:21 - 00:52:40:21
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

00:52:40:23 - 00:52:42:08
Kerry Rowlands
So that that's my big belief.

00:52:42:08 - 00:53:12:02
Daniel Franco
That's, that's what we're employed for. Yeah, I agree. And I think there was there's a, there was a study done recently that was it was a study but nonetheless powerful were one. It was 1087 to be precise. Board members were interviewed after they had fired a CEO. Right. So it was a very specific point in time when they asked the question, why did you why did you fire that CEO?

00:53:12:04 - 00:53:39:20
Daniel Franco
And 31% like the number one answer that came back was the inability to manage through change was the number one answer. And so I think you're spot on in the saying that if if CEOs and leaders are not thinking about how do we change and transform and evolve and bring our people along for the ride and seek to understand their perspectives in this and understand what they're needing and what the community's needing, then they're going to get left behind?

00:53:39:22 - 00:54:12:00
Kerry Rowlands
I think the COVID taught us a lot, and I remember specifically when that happened, and I remember the sea water was quite fast in sending people to work from home. And we were very fortunate that we had the technology and infrastructure to be able to do that. I was leading a large digital transformation program of work, and in April we were meant to go live with a new bill, just 700,000 bills that were going to be sent out and in like, what do we do?

00:54:12:06 - 00:54:34:03
Kerry Rowlands
What's it? Okay, take a step back and I want you to do a risk assessment around what is potentially going to happen because we're working remotely. This is not. So what are the risks, the new risk that opposed because of this? And then once you've done that, I want you to look at how you can mitigate those risks and then come back and have a conversation with me.

00:54:34:03 - 00:54:46:03
Kerry Rowlands
Once we've got that information, we can make a decision if we're going go live or not. So I want to do that piece of work and they came back and they said, This is what it is. We feel that we can mitigate all the risks. We want to go live. Absolutely. Let's go.

00:54:46:03 - 00:54:49:14
Daniel Franco
Live. Perfect. So you've got to.

00:54:49:16 - 00:55:10:20
Kerry Rowlands
In those sorts of situations, you can't retract and do nothing. That's when the courage needs to come forward and you work out, well, how can I make it work? What are the risks? I can't just be, you know, rogue and just go and do things that are going to be detrimental. But how can I make it work and be really considered but keep pivoting working, leaning forward.

00:55:10:22 - 00:55:11:16
Kerry Rowlands
That's our role.

00:55:11:19 - 00:55:33:10
Daniel Franco
Beautiful. And to your point, Clovis taught us a lot about change and we've put a lot of research into this space within synergy, I should say, whereby Harvard taught us, and to your point in sending everyone home from Microsoft teams, you know, before that working from home was, you know, only a few people could do it or certain scenarios.

00:55:33:10 - 00:55:51:04
Daniel Franco
And then all of a sudden the world's working from home. And it worked because we were able make sense of it. Right. And I think that's the critical piece. And this is where a lot of our research got into the out of sense making when going through change in COVID, when you send people home to work, there is Microsoft teams, there is technology to enable you.

00:55:51:04 - 00:56:07:20
Daniel Franco
People will take it on because they're able to make sense of it because it's keeping me safe and other people safer. We're not getting sick. What happened, though, was that organizations went, great, we can just push change out onto an organization and they can accept and it can move forward. And but that only happened with Microsoft teams.

00:56:07:20 - 00:56:27:23
Daniel Franco
Everything else they pushed there and after was like, well, hang on, this changes the way that I work, this changes this, and I couldn't make sense of it. Therefore it fell and products would sit on the shelf and not get used and people would be an app being change, fatigue would kick in. All these sort of things followed because we learned some bad habits in the middle of COVID as well.

00:56:28:00 - 00:56:50:10
Daniel Franco
So it's about what we're trying to do is sort of reframe that right now and go, hang on, let's go back. It was it's never stopped being about our people. It's always about our people. And how can we help change the way they see this and how can we help them move forward as opposed to let's just push what's what we think is best for business onto the onto the organization.

00:56:50:12 - 00:57:14:03
Daniel Franco
So anyway, I've had more to say about that. Now let's let's jump into the world of the Cancer Council. In 2021, you got the opportunity to join as the CEO, which is your first ever full time CEO gig. So curious, has it been jumping into the fire pit? It's a it's a it's a tough load being a CEO.

00:57:14:05 - 00:57:15:04
Kerry Rowlands
Yes and no.

00:57:15:06 - 00:57:18:14
Daniel Franco
I love it. Yes, I think we got to be made for it. Right.

00:57:18:16 - 00:57:36:07
Kerry Rowlands
Well, it's Ken's Coulson's amazing organization. What we stand for and what we do every day is an absolute privilege to lead. When I was looking at leaving, say, water, I wanted to go somewhere that I could continue making a big difference for the community of South Australia.

00:57:36:07 - 00:57:38:11
Daniel Franco
Both. Both purposeful businesses.

00:57:38:13 - 00:58:12:14
Kerry Rowlands
Yeah, really. I had never worked in not for profit, been on not for profit board, so seen it from a different perspective. It's a tough gig in terms of financial sustainability. So Cancer Council doesn't receive any government funding to run our operations. The beautiful community of South Australia to enable us to do the work that we do. There were a couple of things that look, the other thing that I was really looking for and when I went into the organization was the governance structure that sits over the top because you're only as good as what you're empowered to do.

00:58:12:16 - 00:58:32:11
Kerry Rowlands
And so that was really, really important to me. I saw that the chairs, the Honorable Karlene Maywald, who used to be the Water Minister, so I'd had a level of involvement with her previously and always held her in really high regard from a cultural perspective in the way that she interacts and engages with people.

00:58:32:11 - 00:58:33:05
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

00:58:33:07 - 00:58:42:16
Kerry Rowlands
So I was like tick. And then I had a look at the rest of the board and it's a volunteer board and just outstanding in terms of the capabilities.

00:58:42:16 - 00:58:45:22
Daniel Franco
So it was people wanting to give back too. Yeah.

00:58:45:24 - 00:58:49:23
Kerry Rowlands
We're all, we're all touched by cancer. Each of us have our own unique experience.

00:58:49:23 - 00:58:50:19
Daniel Franco
Yes.

00:58:50:21 - 00:59:20:19
Kerry Rowlands
But you go into from a an organization like, say, water that has a lot of structure and management systems, for want of a better phrase, red tape. Is that an organization that didn't and so I had to spend probably the first six months of my time there really establishing the baselines, you know, what's the governance structure? How do I make sure that the water, you know, just refreshing everything, making sure that I had the right capabilities in the organization.

00:59:20:19 - 00:59:37:00
Kerry Rowlands
So we had some change happen at the most senior levels. And I kind of I looked at it like a bit of a bell curve when I came in and put some more structure around things, how people went. Yeah, that's great. And a few people went, Wow, I don't want to be part of this. And that's okay.

00:59:37:01 - 00:59:42:00
Daniel Franco
Which is good. Yeah. So is there an adult? And they're allowed to make a choice whether they want to be there or not. This is the.

00:59:42:00 - 00:59:56:16
Kerry Rowlands
Way that it's going to correct this. What we're going to do and the other thing that's quite difficult within a not for profit, people will say to me, I want 100% of my donation to go to mission. And I say, okay, well, let's look at it in a different perspective. I will leverage your dollar to get $4.

00:59:56:19 - 00:59:57:08
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

00:59:57:10 - 01:00:01:16
Kerry Rowlands
So I can't run a business without structure that sits underneath it.

01:00:01:16 - 01:00:02:09
Daniel Franco
Correct.

01:00:02:11 - 01:00:12:12
Kerry Rowlands
So people need to understand that. So what? The way that I look at it is we're for purpose organization. We're here to deliver against our strategic objectives. This is what we're going to deliver.

01:00:12:12 - 01:00:13:05
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

01:00:13:07 - 01:00:33:13
Kerry Rowlands
So it's been it's been very different. It's also part of a federation. So I don't know if you've ever worked across a federation before. That is really interesting because you have eight chief executives all running organization that are branded the same and you have some rules of engagement in effect, that see over the top. So that's complex. Yeah, So that has been really interesting.

01:00:33:18 - 01:00:36:02
Daniel Franco
And each individual borders that one. Yeah.

01:00:36:04 - 01:00:56:21
Kerry Rowlands
Yeah. Individual boards. And then you have a chief executive forum and you have a chairs forum. Okay, So, so that's where the influencing and the stakeholder management comes into play. So it's, it's so important to have some work and influence at that. So that gives me the challenge as well. I'm enjoying.

01:00:56:21 - 01:01:02:21
Daniel Franco
That. Yeah, it sounds like you and I mean, what have you learned about yourself since?

01:01:02:23 - 01:01:28:22
Kerry Rowlands
it's, it's interesting because when I left this quarter, I was probably a bit tired, Like I was getting a lot of the really complex projects to run and I was just like, I just need a little bit of space. And so what I've learned about myself was probably carrying a lot. I'm a bit lighter in this organization and I've also learned that I've had to, and I did this very quickly, adapt my leadership style to the environment that I am in.

01:01:28:23 - 01:01:29:17
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

01:01:29:19 - 01:01:50:23
Kerry Rowlands
So people might say you're a bit softer in this environment than what you were when you say water. And I say, well, my expectations and what I'm asking for the same, I'm just doing it. My style is just a little bit different because it needs to be a little bit different in this environment. So I've just learned to adapt to the environment that I'm in.

01:01:51:00 - 01:02:10:16
Daniel Franco
Is that because it is in the not for profit space and people are they're more out of wanting to help community more. I mean, I mean, they say water is it's hard not to understand that you're helping the community and keeping the community safe. And, you know, by providing clean and safe drinking water, not only that, but removing disease from their house with the wastewater.

01:02:10:16 - 01:02:15:22
Daniel Franco
But in regards to I mean, cancer, like you said, it touches everyone is much more personable.

01:02:16:01 - 01:02:20:01
Kerry Rowlands
Yeah. So I think that your composition of your workforce is different.

01:02:20:01 - 01:02:20:19
Daniel Franco
And.

01:02:20:21 - 01:02:25:04
Kerry Rowlands
So within, say, water, lots of engineers, engineers, lots of.

01:02:25:08 - 01:02:26:24
Daniel Franco
More capital delivery.

01:02:26:24 - 01:02:44:02
Kerry Rowlands
Capital delivery. So it's more how do I, how do I say this it's more logic thinking? Yeah. Whereas within Cancer Council you've got a lot of public health experts, people that really understand what you do over here increases your risk of cancer, it reduces a.

01:02:44:04 - 01:02:45:07
Daniel Franco
More humanistic thinking.

01:02:45:07 - 01:03:05:12
Kerry Rowlands
And yeah, so and it's, it's, it's just a different style of thinking that happens within the organization. That means that I've just got to adjust my style a little bit. You know, I'm still not certainly moving away from the core of who I am and around my expectation. That's just a slot, a slight pivot, and I think you've got to be adaptable to the environment that you're in.

01:03:05:15 - 01:03:46:06
Daniel Franco
Yeah. How much time? I think I speak to a lot of CEOs here on this podcast and through work. And how much time do you spend reflecting and, you know, you said something earlier which stuck in my mind, which is you never run out of work. And you, when you were talking in context and you've into family and setting some boundaries there, but it got me thinking in regards to do you, do you reflect, you spend time sitting, thinking, reflecting on how to be a better leader, on how to lead through change and how to execute on the strategy, whatever it might be.

01:03:46:08 - 01:04:20:07
Kerry Rowlands
I try to. So I'm a big believer of creating. I talk about it, creating space to innovate. So how do you create thinking time for myself, for my leaders, So one way that I do that is that I alternate my executive meetings, the agenda from fortnight to fortnight. So one fortnight we talk about operational issues, some of the stuff that's going on that we need to address, and then the other fortnight we only have strategic topics that come on to the agenda and they might be 45 minute.

01:04:20:13 - 01:04:47:04
Kerry Rowlands
So we've allocated to talk about something and my expectation is that everybody around the table has a, a view and an opinion. They may not be the specialist in that space, but they can contribute. And quite often when I have my strategy sessions with my execs, I ask them to lead and facilitate for an area that is not their discipline or portfolio so that they're forced to to think about.

01:04:47:04 - 01:04:52:14
Kerry Rowlands
And that doesn't leave it all to the person that has it because, yes, they were missing something.

01:04:52:14 - 01:04:53:08
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

01:04:53:10 - 01:04:56:22
Kerry Rowlands
So I would love to find more time generally, it's probably 3:00 in the.

01:04:56:22 - 01:04:59:24
Daniel Franco
Morning that I wake up and I go, That would work.

01:04:59:24 - 01:05:03:07
Kerry Rowlands
Yeah, Yeah. I think we probably all need a little bit more time to do that.

01:05:03:08 - 01:05:21:04
Daniel Franco
Yeah. Reflection so important for that time. So what does success you mean couple of years in the role now? What does success look like for you in this role? I mean and and you know my next question on the air, what is some of the great work that you are looking to do within Cancer Council in the next couple of years?

01:05:21:06 - 01:05:30:04
Kerry Rowlands
So where we were at the time, we've got a level baseline, right? We've just 18 months ago moved into our new building on Green Hill Road.

01:05:30:04 - 01:05:30:15
Daniel Franco
It's a beautiful.

01:05:30:15 - 01:05:37:02
Kerry Rowlands
Building and so we support anybody that's going through cancer, but particularly in that space, we have 120 rooms of accommodation.

01:05:37:04 - 01:06:03:07
Daniel Franco
Yeah, I sat on that. I walked in. I remember I remember I said this to you when I walked in. It was quite confronting in the sense of how many sick people there were people going through that. I remember one, one chap walking around with the drip thing and had like half of his face missing or most of his cheek missing which so on that alone is quite traumatic for some of your staff as well to be seeing me.

01:06:03:07 - 01:06:06:04
Daniel Franco
So I don't know, it's a mental health thing or.

01:06:06:06 - 01:06:18:01
Kerry Rowlands
So just on that. So previously we had two sites that had accommodation and then we had a corporate head office in a separate location. We're all in the same building.

01:06:18:01 - 01:06:20:16
Daniel Franco
Yeah. So which is great because university.

01:06:20:16 - 01:06:25:12
Kerry Rowlands
Yeah, the good and bad is the, the good. Every day. We walk into work, we know why we're here.

01:06:25:13 - 01:06:26:22
Daniel Franco
Yeah. 100%.

01:06:26:24 - 01:06:47:02
Kerry Rowlands
We talk about change. We've spoken about change a lot today in the lead up to us moving into that one sort, we have a change management program in place. Part of that was around talking to our staff about what they may say, feel experience going into the new building, what they should do about it. So we're very considered about that and we have avenues for people.

01:06:47:04 - 01:07:04:07
Kerry Rowlands
Unfortunately, we have people pass away in our building and our staff might be the people that find them and the like. So we have a very good support process around. So the building keeps us really true to what what we're there for.

01:07:04:07 - 01:07:04:23
Daniel Franco
Absolutely.

01:07:04:23 - 01:07:06:02
Kerry Rowlands
Which was sorry. Incredibly, you.

01:07:06:02 - 01:07:10:02
Daniel Franco
Can get that sense when you walk in. Yeah, Sorry I cut you off, so I.

01:07:10:02 - 01:07:10:10
Kerry Rowlands
Forgot the.

01:07:10:10 - 01:07:18:03
Daniel Franco
Question. So what will success look like for you and what is the Cancer Council doing? Like, what are you looking to do in the next couple of years?

01:07:18:05 - 01:07:30:12
Kerry Rowlands
So we've had a building, beautiful building. We're also we've had a lot of success around advocating for removing single use vapes, I guess. So one of my.

01:07:30:14 - 01:07:31:14
Daniel Franco
It's a big bugbear of your.

01:07:31:14 - 01:07:51:04
Kerry Rowlands
Yes, a big bugbear of mine, and in particular my predecessors and people over the last 30 years have done amazing work in getting traditional smoking down to the lowest levels they've ever been here in Australia and then vaping over here, vaping comes and big tobacco targeting children and I find that disgusting.

01:07:51:10 - 01:08:10:20
Daniel Franco
Yeah, I actually read some. I knew you were going to talk about this today. And a recent report, the Cancer Council found that more than 8% of Australian secondary school students surveyed had smoked cigarets in the previous year. I mean more more than 15% of them had vaped. Right, which is it's scary.

01:08:11:00 - 01:08:42:16
Kerry Rowlands
So we know that it's a really big issue for younger teens in particular, they're targeting with the flavors. They say that they're not containing nicotine, but the majority of them are the nicotine concentrations are about five times that of a traditional cigaret. And we know that one in three people that vape will transition over to a traditional cigaret so that all this amazing work over 30 years the smoking rate has gone from 2% to 8% for 15 to 20 year olds.

01:08:42:16 - 01:08:57:17
Kerry Rowlands
I think it is in the last year. So it's happening. We've got kids being presented a day with poison in their lungs and stuff, so it's just it's terrible. So we've been doing a lot of work at a state and federal level to advocate for change in legislation and regulation.

01:08:57:18 - 01:08:59:14
Daniel Franco
So how are they getting their hands on these?

01:08:59:16 - 01:09:06:00
Kerry Rowlands
Well, previously they could well Snapchat Instagram anywhere through their friends and the.

01:09:06:00 - 01:09:08:16
Daniel Franco
Likes, and you can just buy it online and.

01:09:08:18 - 01:09:09:07
Kerry Rowlands
You just get them.

01:09:09:11 - 01:09:10:07
Daniel Franco
There was no regulation.

01:09:10:14 - 01:09:29:13
Kerry Rowlands
Of convenience previously. There's there's regulation, but it wasn't being done. Okay. So how do you tell if invites got nicotine in it or not? If it's just sitting there and it's used to be legal to sell them in a campaign, it's not to underwrite. It's it just happened. It's so incredibly frustrating. So and the schools you mentioned dealing with that at schools.

01:09:29:15 - 01:09:36:09
Daniel Franco
I have friends that are schoolteachers and they say you walk past the bathrooms and you can smell the light and.

01:09:36:11 - 01:09:59:22
Kerry Rowlands
And then the kids are going to have nicotine withdrawal. So how are we going to support these kids once they can't use them? So that's that's a big and we've made so much progress and really, really proud of the work that we've done in that space in terms of going forward. There's a couple of things. At the Federation level, we've got a significant investment from the federal government across the eight entities to enhance our cancer navigation.

01:09:59:22 - 01:10:18:19
Kerry Rowlands
So that's why we've got oncology nurses on the end of the fine. So I'm leading that piece of work on behalf of the Federation, which is just a fabulous opportunity. So I'm really looking forward to getting our utilization rates up and getting more consistent. And then we're looking at how do we make sure that all of the needs across the state are being met.

01:10:18:23 - 01:10:37:17
Kerry Rowlands
We've just done a survey around unmet needs and it's showing us that out north is where the greatest need is. A little bit out south, but out north. So we're just undertaking some feasibility studies around what is it that we can do to to lean into that space and help more people. That's what we're all about.

01:10:37:19 - 01:11:00:22
Daniel Franco
Helping people, which is great. And I mean, the world's a pretty crazy place at the moment and cost of living is going up. I would dare say that is impacted. The Cancer Council in the way of donations from the public. Yeah. So is there a way in which we can engage? I mean, is there a way which we can use this platform to engage leaders, corporate leaders?

01:11:00:24 - 01:11:11:01
Daniel Franco
How can they be more socially responsible? I mean, I understand the world is in this space, but corporate world might be addictive, might be leaning a little bit more.

01:11:11:03 - 01:11:37:17
Kerry Rowlands
Yeah, so I agree. So we have seen across the board around a 10% reduction in donations. That's across the sector in from about July last year to July last year and particularly around regular giving. So people just can't afford to pay their mortgage, feed their families. So charities have suffered as a consequence of that as well. So we we spoke about this before around our role of pivoting and leaning in.

01:11:37:17 - 01:11:59:04
Kerry Rowlands
So one of the things that we're really doing at Cancer Council is really trying to knock on the doors of corporates, getting people to lean in and what's their social responsibility and you think about it from an employer's perspective, their employee value proposition. They want to work for an organization that looks after the environment that does their social good, and now's the time.

01:11:59:04 - 01:12:22:17
Kerry Rowlands
We need it now more than ever for the corporates to to lean in and see where they can make a difference because everybody needs a hand. The not for profit sector is going to need a hand over the next period of time until this cost of living really sorts itself out. But if there's certainly people listening to the podcast that think that they've got an opportunity to to lean in a bit further, certainly reach out to us.

01:12:22:20 - 01:12:28:13
Daniel Franco
Yeah, I'm going to call it out. Please do, I think because what happens if they don't like what happened? Like what happens if.

01:12:28:15 - 01:12:43:02
Kerry Rowlands
The worst of it would be that we need to cut back services. And I don't think that anybody wants to be in a situation where where we're pulling back on what we're doing. What we want to be doing is is doing more, working out where the gaps are and where we can in lean in more.

01:12:43:06 - 01:13:03:11
Daniel Franco
Yeah, and you said it earlier. I mean, everyone's touched by cancer at some point and you don't know that you need these services until you need these services, right? So it's like how do you any almost pay it forward in a sense. Yeah, I don't know. It's just silly, right? I'm not saying that everyone's going to get cancer, but whether it might be for your friends or your family or someone is going to need this help at some point.

01:13:03:11 - 01:13:10:12
Kerry Rowlands
What we what we really focusing on is across three areas. And if you don't mind, I'll just.

01:13:10:14 - 01:13:11:03
Daniel Franco
Go for it.

01:13:11:05 - 01:13:35:09
Kerry Rowlands
So prevention, we want to empower people to make good choices. We want to advocate for change, so tobacco and vaping and the like, but we want people to go and have their screenings done. So there's bowel, breast, cervical screenings, go and have them done. But equally as important, know yourself, do yourself checks. And if something changes or you're not feeling right, go and get checked out.

01:13:35:09 - 01:14:03:00
Kerry Rowlands
So there's a really strong prevention. One in three cancers are preventable and that might be through screenings, but it's also our lifestyle choices Exercise, fit, watch what you're eating. You know, obesity causes lots of different cancers. So prevention is great. You need to do that and people need to focus on that research. The advances that have happened in research over the last how many years, say 30 years, have been incredible.

01:14:03:00 - 01:14:14:17
Kerry Rowlands
The advances in the last three years have been incredible. But if I pull out a statistic, the chance of surviving cancer today is around 70%, 30 years ago was 50%.

01:14:14:19 - 01:14:15:11
Daniel Franco
Yeah, well.

01:14:15:13 - 01:14:41:05
Kerry Rowlands
And that's due to the advancements in research. But the other thing that we're really focusing on, it's not only about surviving your cancer, but how do you make sure that we call it survivorship? What does your life look like after cancer? So let's take a child for example, that gets flooded with chemo across all of their cells. There's things, let's say, young girl, she might not be able to have children.

01:14:41:07 - 01:14:42:06
Daniel Franco
Yeah, okay.

01:14:42:08 - 01:15:13:21
Kerry Rowlands
The investment that we're doing into research around targeted therapies, that means that they're actually targeting the cancer cells. Only leaving all the good cells. Yeah. Let's just target the cancer cells. It means that the impact that has on them after is so much lower, so they have a greater quality of life post their cancer. And the research and the research is here in South Australia are just absolutely amazing and the outcomes are so different to what they were 2 to 3 or 430 years ago.

01:15:13:23 - 01:15:22:19
Kerry Rowlands
So we've got to keep doing that and then caring for people that have cancer, which is what we spoke about before through all of the services that we offer.

01:15:22:21 - 01:15:28:24
Daniel Franco
Amazing. I mean, you had a scare recently, too, didn't you? I think, which is a powerful story. Are you open to sharing this?

01:15:28:24 - 01:15:48:04
Kerry Rowlands
So I noticed a mark on my leg and when I went and had my skin check, I said, Can you just check this mark out? And it didn't show any of the characteristics of anything sinister. And so we measured it and we said that we would just keep an eye on it. When I went to my GP, I thought, I'll just check with him as well.

01:15:48:08 - 01:16:09:21
Kerry Rowlands
And I said, What do you think of these? And he goes, It doesn't have any of the characteristics, It's fine. Went back to my skin specialist for my next routine check still on my leg and he goes, Still doesn't have any of the characteristics. I'm actually happy to monitor it. And about two weeks after that I was sitting in my office and I distinctly remember sitting there and it just I could just feel it and I just couldn't take my eyes off of that.

01:16:09:21 - 01:16:22:10
Kerry Rowlands
I was looking at it again. It was different. The main thing was it was a different color to all my other freckles. It was it was tiny, tiny, tiny. And I rang, I thought, you know what? I'm going to actually take the time and I'm going to ring.

01:16:22:14 - 01:16:27:15
Daniel Franco
So was this while you're working against cancer? Yeah. So your senses heightened as well, Right?

01:16:27:18 - 01:16:40:00
Kerry Rowlands
And so I thought, well, I'm going to ring. And I made an appointment. I went back to see him three weeks after I'd seen him, and he said, Well, what are you doing here? Is it can you just take it off? I just I just don't this doesn't feel right. And he said, sure, absolutely. We'll take it off my send off of pathology.

01:16:40:02 - 01:16:56:15
Kerry Rowlands
And he rang me on the Saturday and I was getting ready to go to a day on the train with some girlfriends and I was rushing to go out and he said, it's such and such here. I just need to let you know that that's a melanoma on your leg. And he said it didn't show any of the characteristics.

01:16:56:17 - 01:17:18:06
Kerry Rowlands
But what my learning out of this is, is that you felt something and I got to listen water to that because you felt something, because you'd asked me about this a couple of times, about I need you to come back on Monday and. We're going to take the margin. So from this tiny little freckle, I've got this, you know, really big scar on my leg with I had to take all of the margin out around and thankfully, they got all of it.

01:17:18:06 - 01:17:21:06
Kerry Rowlands
And, you know, I'm really lucky that I persisted.

01:17:21:09 - 01:17:48:02
Daniel Franco
Yeah, which is great. Yeah. So I think it's an important lesson. I mean, I'm going through a family situation at the moment. My father almost with stage four melanoma, so he was one of those people that I should be right. And and I kind of call that the ostrich effect in a way. You know, people this happens in business and in life that when we don't want to know the answers to something, we just stick our head in the sand and we're scared of what the outcome can be.

01:17:48:06 - 01:17:53:07
Daniel Franco
Yet, like the outcome is going to happen anyway, even though it just doesn't make sense.

01:17:53:07 - 01:17:56:13
Kerry Rowlands
But the big strong message is the earlier that you pick it out.

01:17:56:13 - 01:18:03:09
Daniel Franco
Absolutely. Just do it. You might waste a little bit of time, but least you're alive. You know what I mean?

01:18:03:12 - 01:18:21:18
Kerry Rowlands
People are scared so well, at any rate, while I don't know, it's not it's not real. It's not happening. But the problem is, the longer that you take to go and seek to see if something is going on remains more advanced than the cancer can be, because a lot of cancers can be cured.

01:18:21:21 - 01:18:53:16
Daniel Franco
Yeah, absolutely. We had and you know quite well Andrew, Bill's the CEO of this. I've been on show and he he caught his I think he had prostate that's he had lost the word for saying he had prostate cancer and he just thankfully, you know, was what's what's interesting is that his father died at a quite a young age from it from from issues and which Andrew then became with health and then went and got a yearly checkup or a six monthly checkup or whatever it was.

01:18:53:21 - 01:19:16:11
Daniel Franco
And it was his learnings from his father that actually saved his life in this in the token that he was getting these regular checkups and his PSA levels went up and then they said, actually, let's check that further. And then I got it really early. Right. So just the regular checkups are super important. I think we put a call out to everyone last time when he was on the show, like to go and get checked.

01:19:16:11 - 01:19:23:17
Daniel Franco
And I can now go every six months as well. And I guess I'll stress that again. Just keep like that. Yeah.

01:19:23:19 - 01:19:30:17
Kerry Rowlands
So yeah, and Andrew's stories, interesting because that was through an employee wellness program.

01:19:30:18 - 01:19:34:16
Daniel Franco
Yeah, it was off. Yeah. So it saved his life.

01:19:34:20 - 01:19:45:00
Kerry Rowlands
And you know, he's very generous in sharing his story around his experience to try and make men talk about it. And, as you said, get checked.

01:19:45:03 - 01:20:19:02
Daniel Franco
Yeah. Let's not make it taboo. It doesn't need to be excellent. Now, I'm conscious of time. We've been talking for quite some time, which is? Which has been great. I guess if last question on leadership. I think it's a world in which you're passionate about for we kick into some closing thoughts and quickfire questions. And if you were to look back at your career and you compile all the lessons that you've learned around leadership over the years and you know, you sit back and reflect and you said that you have adapted to new you, new roles and all the above.

01:20:19:05 - 01:20:24:03
Daniel Franco
What would be one or two of the core lessons that you've learned along the way?

01:20:24:07 - 01:20:48:15
Kerry Rowlands
Take people on the journey with you. Be open, be transparent, value other people's perspectives, actively listen, seek to understand you're going to get a better outcome if you take on board what other people's views are than trying to do it alone. And you're going to get greater buying and ownership when you get to the end. That's probably the key one that I've learned.

01:20:48:17 - 01:21:02:23
Daniel Franco
Beautiful, wonderful. And if you could encapsulate your entire journey to date with a single lesson or message, what would that be? SAS says Figure it out later. Is that that's the Richard Branson how you.

01:21:03:00 - 01:21:18:03
Kerry Rowlands
Even when you're scared, say, yes, lady, don't lie now because you don't know where it's going to take you. You don't know what you're going to learn and you don't know where it's going to take you. I know. So many people that said, I'm going to go down this path. I mean, I'm a I'm a trained accountant, right.

01:21:18:05 - 01:21:38:08
Kerry Rowlands
And in leading customer divisions, doing digital transformation, doing change, doing, and now CEO to say yes, because your path doesn't have to be defined from day one. Yeah, you can go in so many different directions and don't don't worry if you don't know everything and it's okay to be a little bit scared because you generally know more than what you think you know.

01:21:38:10 - 01:21:46:11
Daniel Franco
Yeah, I've a general rule on that, which is if I'm feeling comfortable, it means I'm not challenging myself enough. Right. Like it's. You want.

01:21:46:11 - 01:21:49:18
Kerry Rowlands
That. Yeah. The butterfly feel. Yeah. I feel a bit anxious.

01:21:49:18 - 01:22:12:07
Daniel Franco
Yeah. It's the stepping into ambiguity where real growth and learning but trust yourself. So yeah, on top of that. Very good. Right. We're going to jump into some quickfire questions to round off some just quick ones. We've sometimes we go through them quickly, sometimes we dive into them because I get really intrigued by some of the answers. What be great is here, we're always, you know, the core value of synergy or Q is is wisdom.

01:22:12:07 - 01:22:14:21
Daniel Franco
So what are you reading right now?

01:22:14:23 - 01:22:29:07
Kerry Rowlands
Okay, so I've got I'm part of a book club. I ate with my girlfriends and a few of them I went to high school with, if you can believe that. So we meet once a month. We're reading tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow by Gabrielle Zevin.

01:22:29:10 - 01:22:30:04
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

01:22:30:06 - 01:22:31:01
Kerry Rowlands
Which is amazing.

01:22:31:03 - 01:22:31:11
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

01:22:31:11 - 01:22:34:00
Kerry Rowlands
Amazing twists. And turns and unexpected.

01:22:34:02 - 01:22:51:24
Daniel Franco
Beautiful. Is there any book podcast, TEDx talk, YouTube video, whatever might be from a learning perspective. So nonfiction self-development perspective that has stood out to you over the years or or that you've recommended? More often than not, not.

01:22:51:24 - 01:23:24:21
Kerry Rowlands
One in particular, probably. I go and I don't generally read self-development books because I try and keep my reading to my downtime relax, but I do quite enjoy reading articles and listening to TED talks about particular topics, so I will generally go in and do it on a particular topic, so it's not one that jumps to mind. I'm normally doing it topic specific and then I'll jump around a little because I like to hear a diverse range of perspectives.

01:23:24:21 - 01:23:26:18
Kerry Rowlands
Yeah, and then I bring it all together myself.

01:23:26:18 - 01:23:39:24
Daniel Franco
Yeah. And then you come up with your own judgment out of it. Perfect. That's the way you should learn, right? Yeah. You just take what someone says and do it, and you do what works best for you and your business. What's one lesson that's taking you the longest to learn?

01:23:40:02 - 01:23:41:04
Kerry Rowlands
That I'm not always right.

01:23:41:04 - 01:23:50:04
Daniel Franco
Yeah. I don't reckon we'll ever learn that. I know. I try really hard. If you get out of coffee with one current or historical figure, who would that be?

01:23:50:06 - 01:24:15:19
Kerry Rowlands
share two. If I may go from. I had the privilege of having coffee with Marjorie Jackson Nelson this week, and she is one of the most fascinating women that I've met. She's 92. Yeah. And her life experiences, I'm just blown away. Yeah, but she was talking to me this week about her interactions with the Queen and she was just laughing and talking about how down to earth and the sense of humor that the queen had.

01:24:15:19 - 01:24:23:14
Kerry Rowlands
And I think we saw little glimpses of that every now and then. But I would love to have a chat with her and see if I can crack her and.

01:24:23:16 - 01:24:23:22
Daniel Franco
See.

01:24:23:22 - 01:24:30:11
Kerry Rowlands
What her sense of humor is about, because she lived a life in the limelight, which is tough.

01:24:30:13 - 01:24:36:18
Daniel Franco
A long life in the limelight. Yeah. Wasn't it very good? Well, some of the best advice that you've ever received.

01:24:36:20 - 01:24:46:15
Kerry Rowlands
The best advice that I've ever received is trust yourself. Yeah. Yeah. And you can do whatever you put your mind to. And I think that comes right back to what we started talking about was the my momma. Yes.

01:24:46:20 - 01:24:48:05
Daniel Franco
You know, there was no boundaries.

01:24:48:11 - 01:24:49:20
Kerry Rowlands
No boundaries. Just yourself. You can do it.

01:24:49:24 - 01:24:57:02
Daniel Franco
Yeah. Because there's no other choice. You have to do it. Yeah. So what's one habit that holds you back the most?

01:24:57:04 - 01:25:15:03
Kerry Rowlands
Habit that holds me back? Probably from a time perspective. I'm the organizer. So at work, you know, leading a large organization. But in my friend group. In my family group, yeah. We're going to do this. So all organizer and I just kind of get a bit stuck at time. So I've really, I've tried to step back out of that.

01:25:15:03 - 01:25:18:13
Kerry Rowlands
Yeah. So I have it was just taking control, but other people can do that.

01:25:18:13 - 01:25:21:17
Daniel Franco
Yeah, absolutely. I can do a good job. Yeah.

01:25:21:19 - 01:25:22:16
Kerry Rowlands
I really enjoy it.

01:25:22:16 - 01:25:34:21
Daniel Franco
Yeah. And again, it's just sometimes the ambiguity of stepping into what someone else is organized is actually quite more refreshing. Yeah. Than you trying to control everything and hope everything goes. Goes okay.

01:25:34:23 - 01:25:39:03
Kerry Rowlands
Pressure? Yeah. You know what happens if this goes wrong? Now I'm just like, Yeah, you know, you be right.

01:25:39:03 - 01:25:45:21
Daniel Franco
I'm just going to enjoy my one. C What's your biggest pet peeve? Like what pisses you off the most?

01:25:46:00 - 01:25:52:01
Kerry Rowlands
Undermining and nontransparent behavior? bring it to the surface. Have the conversation.

01:25:52:06 - 01:25:52:19
Daniel Franco
Yeah.

01:25:52:21 - 01:25:53:23
Kerry Rowlands
I can't stand it.

01:25:54:00 - 01:25:56:01
Daniel Franco
Yeah, it's toxic.

01:25:56:03 - 01:25:57:11
Kerry Rowlands
I don't know. I don't.

01:25:57:13 - 01:26:01:08
Daniel Franco
You know, tolerate it. You know, there's one thing I remember about using a.

01:26:01:11 - 01:26:02:01
Kerry Rowlands
Local it.

01:26:02:01 - 01:26:18:11
Daniel Franco
Out It's a good surface. Yeah it characters it is a huge thing that if you could have one person that could do one of your chores for the rest of your days, what would it be? What year would it be? I've got to if I can't, you go for.

01:26:18:13 - 01:26:20:01
Kerry Rowlands
My cleaning lady. I mean.

01:26:20:03 - 01:26:25:12
Daniel Franco
I love them both. Yeah. Yeah. So who wants the iron? Who wants to? I know.

01:26:25:15 - 01:26:26:01
Kerry Rowlands
Nobody.

01:26:26:07 - 01:26:40:10
Daniel Franco
Done that. It's ridiculous. I Boy, I'm glad I shouldn't say this. People are going to vote against me, but some of this one's not actually. But some of the shirts though, where I buy the non iron ones and you hang them out on a coat hanger and they let you have the item is fabulous.

01:26:40:10 - 01:26:47:01
Kerry Rowlands
I have an amazing lady that comes to my house on a monday morning, picks up an a basket and drops it back Tuesday morning.

01:26:47:01 - 01:26:47:15
Daniel Franco
Yeah, brilliant.

01:26:47:15 - 01:26:49:15
Kerry Rowlands
She's one of my favorite people. Yeah.

01:26:49:17 - 01:27:05:15
Daniel Franco
I have my mother in law. My, my, my mother in law loves ironing and so she comes back to pick up the key, help us with picking up the kids from school, and she'll come home to do our ironing. Just I know it's like what a human what's one where they absolutely.

01:27:05:17 - 01:27:08:06
Kerry Rowlands
We can't do that. Can't come. No you can't. Yeah.

01:27:08:09 - 01:27:09:20
Daniel Franco
There's no I mean we can.

01:27:09:22 - 01:27:11:13
Kerry Rowlands
We can. We just got to work at.

01:27:11:15 - 01:27:18:21
Daniel Franco
Yeah. As one of the lessons that my parents taught me growing up there was one thing that they drummed into my head more than anything else is there's no such word as count.

01:27:19:02 - 01:27:31:23
Kerry Rowlands
So I band at one of the steering committees that I led. I band the word no. Yeah, they were not allowed to come in and say, no, they live here, crazy lady.

01:27:31:23 - 01:27:32:11
Daniel Franco
And.

01:27:32:13 - 01:27:40:02
Kerry Rowlands
And then they changed the whole mindset. So the project went from not progressing to progressing because.

01:27:40:04 - 01:27:54:23
Daniel Franco
I heard a really good quote once, which was like, it was a story, it was someone was a leader. And he said, came in and I had this idea and and then one of the replies, I go, I can give you ten reasons why that won't work. It's like, Well, all you need is one reason why it won't work.

01:27:54:23 - 01:28:10:04
Daniel Franco
And that's enough. Like, I don't need the ten, I need one. But can you figure out how we can make it work? Right? Like that's, that's the. That's the important. That's the important. We don't sit here and just throw shit at me like this is what we need to do. What's the first thing that you would do if you became invisible?

01:28:10:09 - 01:28:28:05
Daniel Franco
It's a bit of a creepy question for me. I'd probably just annoy people. Yeah, just poking fun at the things around. So freaking out kind of gives you a little bit of. Yeah. My character is. Yeah, yeah. It goes back to you. Really is. Yeah. What's the most useless talent that you have.

01:28:28:08 - 01:28:29:08
Kerry Rowlands
Or are you ready for.

01:28:29:08 - 01:28:29:12
Daniel Franco
It?

01:28:29:12 - 01:28:32:06
Kerry Rowlands
Okay, the top of my finger can move.

01:28:32:08 - 01:28:53:19
Daniel Franco
By itself On what? Completely useless talent that's alien. Like, tell us. This is my favorite question. The whole podcast. What's your best mom slash dad cheat joke? Are you ready for it? I am ready. I've been ready since we started. You told me you had a good one for you. just a good one. You need to bring your expectations stable, but a good one means a shoot.

01:28:53:19 - 01:28:56:05
Daniel Franco
Right? Right. Okay. You ready for it? Go.

01:28:56:09 - 01:28:59:20
Kerry Rowlands
What do you call a magician who has lost his magic?

01:28:59:23 - 01:29:24:18
Daniel Franco
What do you call a magician? He's lost his magic and a magician. You're very good, kids. I'm sorry. Well done. Excellent Thank you so much for your time today. Kari. It's been amazing having you on as a little bit of a trip down memory lane for me in some aspects as well. So I really appreciate that. Thank you for everything that you and the team at Cancer Council are doing in South Australia and Australia wide.

01:29:24:23 - 01:29:37:08
Daniel Franco
Your cause is, is is paramount to the health of South Australians. For my understanding, it's like 30 South Australians. A month is a year, a year and a month, a day, a day a day. 3030.

01:29:37:12 - 01:29:39:18
Kerry Rowlands
30 South Australians every day.

01:29:39:19 - 01:29:40:04
Daniel Franco
Every day.

01:29:40:06 - 01:29:40:23
Kerry Rowlands
With cancer.

01:29:41:00 - 01:30:02:05
Daniel Franco
That that is a day that is scary. And then you can get your time set by X percent on an Australian wide and worldwide so we need organizations like yours to, to help with the research and, and you know, not to mention the screening and early intervention and everything else that you do. So I'm going to call that again to the corporates.

01:30:02:05 - 01:30:11:13
Daniel Franco
If there is an opportunity to help out a little bit, then please, please reach out is super and super, super important. So yes, just wanted to say thanks again.

01:30:11:15 - 01:30:14:02
Kerry Rowlands
Thanks for having a really enjoyed my morning. Really appreciate.

01:30:14:02 - 01:30:36:24
Daniel Franco
It. Beautiful. That's it from us. Everyone will will catch you next time. Thanks for listening to the podcast so you can check out the show notes if there was anything of interest to you and find out more about us at Synergy IQ dot com. So do you. I am going to ask though if you did like the podcast, it would absolutely mean the world to me if you could subscribe, write and review and if you didn't like it, that's alright too.

01:30:37:05 - 01:30:40:19
Daniel Franco
There's no need to do anything. Thank you guys. All the best.

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Daniel Franco

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