Creating Synergy Podcast

#35 – Jamie Getgood, CEO of Getgood Consulting, on the Closure of Holden Australia and People-focused Leadership

June 02, 2021 SynergyIQ
Creating Synergy Podcast
#35 – Jamie Getgood, CEO of Getgood Consulting, on the Closure of Holden Australia and People-focused Leadership
Show Notes Transcript

Jamie Getgood is the Founder & CEO of Getgood Consulting and an Ambassador of The People Shift. Jamie specialises in Senior HR Leadership, employee redundancy and workforce transition, organisation restructure and rebuilding company culture. He bagged the Australian Leader of the Year award in 2017, as well as multiple accolades & nominations from lead leadership bodies, after contributing to the workforce transition in GM Holden.

Following Holden’s closure, Jamie became an international key speaker specialising in Industrial Relations, Leadership and Employee Engagement and currently manages his own business called Getgood Consulting.

In this episode, Jamie shares his career journey in GM Holden. He also shares key messages, such as the value of building relationships with employees, how people-focused leadership can radically change the organisation's culture, how important is to "Treat people with dignity and respect" even in the hardest of times and lastly and how "We drastically impact our employees' lives", so is the time to be more human, more compassionate and more empathetic.

If you enjoy this episode, please share it with your friends and colleagues, and check us out on synergyiq.com.au.  

Where to find Jamie Getgood 

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Books mentioned on this episode: 

  • Drive - Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us - By Daniel H. Pink
  • The Advantage - Why Organizational Health Trumps Everything Else in Business - By Patrick M Lencioni, Geoff Ables
  • Multipliers, Revised And Updated - How The Best Leaders Make Everyone Smarter - 
    By Liz Wiseman
Synergy IQ:

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Daniel Franco:

is synergises and welcome back to another episode of The creating synergy podcast. My name is Daniel Franco and today we have the great man Jamie get good on the show. So Jamie is the founder and CEO of get good consulting and the ambassador of the people shift. Jamie specializes in senior HR leadership, employee redundancy and workforce transition organization restructure and rebuilding company culture in 2007, anti bag the Australian of the Year Award as well as multiple accolades and nominations from the leadership bodies after contributing to the workforce transition in GM Holden. Following Holden's closure, Jamie became an international speaker, specializing in industrial relations, leadership and employee engagement. In this episode, Jaime shares his career journey to the Jim Holden, and ultimately the closure of Holden. We shared key messages such as the value of building relationships with employees, people focused leadership, and radical changes to the organization's culture. Jaime believes that we drastically impact our employees lives as leaders with decisions we make. So now is the time to be more human, more compassionate, and more empathetic. I know you'll love this episode as much as I did. And if you liked the episode, be sure to hit subscribe and check us out at Synergy. iq.com.au. So welcome back to the creating synergy podcast. My name is Daniel Franco, your host and today we have the great man Jamie getgood,

Jamie Getgood:

great men.

Daniel Franco:

Okay, otherwise known as the velvet sledge. You guys. Can we start off with that the velvet sledgehammer or the smiling assassin?

Jamie Getgood:

Yes, Marley assassin. Yeah, you've done your homework and dug up some of these names I didn't want out, but that's fine. Look, the velvet Sledge Hammer was actually a nickname that one of my HR guys gave me a hold on. So it's not necessarily a term that the whole world use. Thankfully, that's out there. Yeah, it's out there. And part of the reason he gave me that was we were involved in a few difficult situations. And my background, I was involved in the closure of holding. In fact, I lead the closure program for manufacturing in Australia. And we had some very difficult conversations. We had, obviously some redundancy conversations that had to be had, we had some industrial relations matters. And there was a couple of examples where I was with this particular HR person. And he said to me, after he goes, I'm going to kill you the velvet Sledgehammer because you have this way to smack them hard and kick him out and do all this stuff. But it was so gentle and kind and you you really took care of his feelings and so forth. So I mean, breached. So every HR meeting from there, he said, Call me vote sledgehammer. Yeah.

Daniel Franco:

So it's a it is a skill set. Right? Yeah. Putting yourself in the other person's shoes whilst delivering. Yeah, tough messages.

Jamie Getgood:

Absolutely. I think it's, it's not I don't want to call it an art form. I think it's just taking that human approach to things and realizing that they have a family, they have kids, they have a life outside of work. And if we can't, I think the least thing we can do is treat people with dignity and respect. So no matter the outcome, they feel like that they were heard they were valued. And I've done some tricky stuff. You can still do it well.

Daniel Franco:

Yeah, it's it's communication is key, isn't it? If you are very clear with your message, and it comes from a point of view of look, this is what's best for the business. This is what's this is what's happening. It's kind of out of our control, we understand the difficult position that it leaves you. Yeah. You know, you're always going to get some kickback. But it's better than not providing any communication whatsoever, isn't it? Because that's when the complaints arise. And

Jamie Getgood:

yeah, and there's some horror stories out there of companies who have done redundancies by text message and really, yeah, yeah, it's it's happens out there a lot. And I'm in this world right now. So and in companies that will give very little comp communication or notice they basically just say, look, you're finishing up, you're in London. He's just off See you later. So communication for me is key. I always take the view that if my son or daughter was to come home and say, Hey, have been made redundant that they were given every opportunity to be cared for. And I think I try and take a personal view on how would I feel held my kids feel? I think with that mindset, you approach it differently.

Daniel Franco:

You do? Absolutely. The getting to your career. And how you got to the Holden's role. Let's, let's cast our minds back a little. Yeah. Where did you start? How did you get into this world?

Jamie Getgood:

To get into this world? That's a that's a deeper question.

Daniel Franco:

Well, that's a question I should ask here. Oh, man. But no. How did you get into the world of HR? And

Jamie Getgood:

yeah, I believe it or not, I didn't actually start in HR. I, growing up through school wanted to be an engineer. Well, don't hold that against

Daniel Franco:

me. No. I know, some very, very, very intelligent engineers. Yeah.

Jamie Getgood:

Yeah, look, and that was my path. So I applied for apprenticeships, got myself a Fearon Turner apprenticeship. And interesting enough, and you know, the back end, I didn't actually get the Holden apprenticeship which I applied for. So it wasn't good enough hold back in those days. But I ended up getting an apprenticeship with what was known as email appliances back then, or some people not a symptom. Some people would not as Electrolux and started my world as a mechanical tradesperson then worked in maintenance. And once I'm awards, and through the awards that I won, like a prison of the year sort of things and gold ago, what got a gold medal for the WorldSkills Competition was like a trade Olympics. And email at the time said, Hey, we, we think you'd be a great person to take over our apprentice Training Center. So that was sort of a great opportunity when I finished my trade to do something. related. Yeah, but it got me involved in the training world, and got me involved in leading, you know, small teams and training apprentices. And it was really good exposure, a little, I guess, a small exposure to what the HR will look like. And alleged likes came in and bought out the business. And they decided that they didn't want to apprentice Training Center anymore. So the director of HR approached me and said, Hey, Jamie, look, your role is going to be made redundant. I know, you want to be an engineer? Do you really want to be one? So he challenged me a bit. And I said, Yeah, I'm really keen. And he goes, Well, I've got a different idea. I reckon you've got the perfect attitude, behavior, personality, be a HR person. And I laughed at him. And he goes, No, no, I'm serious. I'm willing to help support you with your degree, I'm willing to give you one on one mentoring, like you will be by my side for the first 12 months. We really think you'd be a great HR person. So that's how my HR career started. I thought long and hard about it until you know what I really enjoyed this training opportunity and this ability to deal with mixed with people and I got an amazing opportunity to work with this guy who I think at the time was, for me, one of the greatest HR guys in the state. So was his name. His name was Jerry quirk, he was a very unique HR person to float around, or he retired. He's retired. And what I loved about Jerry was he was very knowledgeable in the HR space, but his core attribute was all about people in relationship and, and whilst he could be tough, don't get me wrong. He taught me everything about having posture in the right times. And, you know, how do you hold yourself? How do you speak? When do you, you know, put on that game face and show that you're you've got to be tough, but at the same time, be very relational and his background, he was an ex priest. Okay, there you go. And that brought in all these elements that I look back in my career going, I can see that in him. And I also have a faith and that sort of has sparked me and going, Okay, well, maybe I need to portray who I am in that side of things as well in my workplace. I feel like that's been a big part of the reason I am who I am.

Daniel Franco:

It's an amazing how one person can completely transform your life. Absolutely.

Jamie Getgood:

And Jerry, you know, interesting, I almost quit on my first day. Oh, really? Because Jerry was this amazing, kind hearted guy, but we went into a an extremely difficult IR matter with a six foot six guy, huge guy, and Jerry went in very hard, which I wasn't expecting. And this guy I thought was gonna, it's not as one. So I'm sitting there going, if this is what he was, like, I don't know if I'm cutting off. Yeah. But

Daniel Franco:

what was what was it? Was it the sort of the confrontational element he didn't like, or?

Jamie Getgood:

Yeah, so this particular example, this guy I was about to be terminated for aggression, abuse, sexual harassment. And he looked like he was going to rip their heads off. Yeah. So it was that, like, it wasn't so much the issue of conflict, I actually am okay, day to day with conflict. But this particular gentleman on day one of HR was scary. Um, uh, you know, what was I probably 21 or 22 at the time. And confronted with that,

Daniel Franco:

it's amazing. And going back to Jaron, you know, the effect that he's had on you, and almost sort of pointed you in a different direction, the the ongoing effect that he's having, right, just that one decision, or the decision to see that expertise or quality in your should say, Yeah, has now affected so many other lives as well. Yeah. And for the better. Yes, you, you know, the velvets like, yes. But it could have been worse for those people. Right, you have the ability to, to deliver some messages in a way that is much more humane? Yeah.

Jamie Getgood:

It's interesting. One of the things he taught me early on, and I can't just, I want to give all the credit to Jerry, although I do no credit. I've had other mentors with the same approach, which I think mentoring is really important. We can touch on that if you like, yeah. But still, a lot of these mentors have really said, we have an opportunity to change someone's life with every decision that we make. And that's sort of been a core as to who I think I am that every single decision how am I impacting you? How am I? How am I going to impact not only your thought pattern right now, but how you react respond to your kids later tonight because of the news that you've just heard. So I really have taken that through my career going every moment is an opportunity to bless support, encourage someone, even in difficult times, or a moment to absolutely smash them to the ground and potentially send them down a treasured trajectory that we don't want them to go down. Yeah. Okay. So mentoring, for me has been part of that having the right people in my campaign, it's not always work related mentors, having the right people in my camp who can guide me who can confront me at the right moments going, Jamie, I actually think you're heading down the wrong path. And I've got a couple of people that do that with me right now. In my personal life, even, and having people that you trust who you can talk to who can point you down certain paths and sometimes just be an ear. Yeah. So mentoring, sorry, important. And so that's the the lasting impact Jerry's had on me

Daniel Franco:

going into the mentoring thing, the had someone come up to me probably a couple of weeks ago, and they said, Hey, Dan, do you remember this? You said this to me a couple of years ago. And it really sort of transformed my life, I went down a different path, I actually started reading some more books and stop watching Netflix so much, and all that sort of stuff. And it was like it was a pivotal point in my life, this conversation, I remember exactly where we were and, and I don't have any recollection at all. So what that kind of points out to me is that you really need to if you are in the have the luxury of potentially providing some mentoring to someone else, you really need to be careful with the words that you use on a daily basis. Being check, hold your ego in check. And because you're potentially steering people's lives in other directions, yeah,

Jamie Getgood:

absolutely. I think we have to be accountable for everything that we do. And I mean, I currently am now a mentor for a few other people. And there's some senior HR people that I'm not necessarily trying to direct their life, but I'm an ear for them. And I'm someone that can vent to and I can speak words of wisdom into them rather than words that are going to discourage them. And I think that's, that's important. Every word is important to that individual. And I've got one in particular who's gone through quite a difficult time emotionally, and I don't have to tell them about, you know, the, the finite detail behind how to do HR strategy. You know, I'm actually going, how you, right, what support can I do? Do you want to talk about that. And in some cases, in this particular case, she's she's been just glowing because I just, I needed that venting point and I can't do it my partner and it can be difficult. We partner sometimes. I can't do it. My CEO and I can't do it my HR team because I hold I hold a certain position. So for her, it's been valuable.

Daniel Franco:

Yeah, absolutely. It's the level of empathy that you can show. Yeah, absolutely. Put the listening is on.

Jamie Getgood:

Absolutely. And that's for me. I'm a big advocate of people focus leadership. And I think we need to have that lens in everything that we do. Don't get me wrong, there are some people that keep people focused leadership to the nth degree, and they don't discipline and performance managing, they can go too far. And that's mostly, you still need return on investment, you still need results, but still doing it with a humane manner?

Daniel Franco:

Can you dive into people? Both? Because what is leadership without people?

Jamie Getgood:

Yeah, it's funny, you say that you're right. It's not leadership. But I mean, I've had the luxury with my current role to go to a lot of organizations and I see people, or leaders, sorry, who are all about the end result. And whilst they know they've got people that will get them there, they don't empower them, they don't bring them on the journey. They don't get them aligned with the values or the direction of the business, or they just have set deadlines without empathy or care. So I'm gonna manage micromanage. Absolutely. So there is a difference between leading to an outcome and leading people to an outcome. Yeah. And I think that's what people forget is leadership really, is it's, you still got to get the outcomes, otherwise, we don't have a business to support anyone. But how do you bring people on that journey? And, look, there's so many different models and techniques, but the one that always sticks with me is a book by Dan Pink, called Drive. Right? And he talks about mastery, he talks about purpose and autonomy, and love, you can pull out 100 other words, but if we just focus on those three, how do you help people get their mastery and grow? So they feel like that they are developing as a person? How do we give them purpose? How do you how do you show them the purpose of the the organization and the values and the direction but also how their role impacts the organization? And I think sometimes we're really good at talking about values, but not how an individual makes a difference. And then autonomy, you know, don't micromanage. Give them some scope, give them some power, empower them, engage them.

Daniel Franco:

Yeah, the micromanagement, one is always one that sort of throws me off. I'm too lazy to cook couldn't think of anything worse than having to do my own job, as well as checking in on someone else's, it just seems so counterproductive. Yeah, I really liked your values comment, though. When working with people, we tend to help them understand that this is the values of the business, right? This is where the business needs to go. And this is what we can hold our people internally in this business account to. But what are your own personal values? They don't necessarily need to be the exact same 90, you know, so it's about working towards the vision and the value of the business. Where do we want to go? Where does this business when I go within your own? Yeah, set of values, right, as well. And as long as there obviously, are integrity and all the above but that that's it's a it's it's an area where I don't actually know. We believe that too many people focus on it. There's like the word values get thrown around yet left, right and center. But to be people actually know what they mean. Yeah,

Jamie Getgood:

I would say often they don't. And I think it goes even further than that. When I've been in organizations, and to be honest, when I first had a hold on, there were a few leaders that were like this, where they would go, Oh, we've got these employees really bad. You know, he's a troublemaker. And I'd often go, Do you truly believe that he wakes up in the morning, turns his alarm clock off and goes, I'm going to be a prep today? I don't believe that I believe people get out of bed going, I want to give my best I want to do my best. The reason they don't is because maybe they've been burnt by a supervisor or by an environment or an outcome built up poor habits. Absolutely. Or it could be as simple as they don't see that their role is important in the organization. So I'm just here putting apart my car. Yeah, no, you're not. You're potentially saving someone's life today, because that part is crucial. So bringing people in that journey, helping them understand their role in the organization and the business huge and

Daniel Franco:

the greater good for the community. Absolutely. Yeah, it's interesting. I had a mentor of mine, tell me or say to me once, and it was one of those. It's almost like those life changing lightbulb moments where he said, Dan, do you believe that everyone's doing their best with what they've got? And if they are, then how can you judge them or be angry at them? And we'll be frustrated with him. If you know that they're giving it their best with what they've got, right. And the with what they got is the most important part of that. I believe there are some people that just at different levels, they have different levels of thinking they're not in the right mindset, they got other stuff going on at the particular time, which is holding them back from from a certain way of thinking or a different perspective. So it and what that I think that comment allowed me to do was almost put the coach's hat on Yeah, right. He's like, Oh, how can I help this person if they're thinking in this way? So I think it's a really important point you make?

Jamie Getgood:

Yeah, look, for me, people are not going to give 100% If they don't feel like the 100% actually does anything for them or the business? Great. So how do we get them on that journey? You know, if it's your environment, it's the people around you that your leadership that, you know, you go everyday to work going are going to face that again, you know, straightaway, you see the shoulder shrug. They're not giving 100% They're probably given 70%, because they're not happy with something in their environment. Yeah.

Daniel Franco:

What's the Gallup poll is that 85% of people leave because of poor leadership or lack of understanding?

Jamie Getgood:

Absolutely. So that's where, you know, and there's a lot of buzzwords out there, and some of my grades, and some I don't. But you know, that's why psychological safety is important, right? That's why being vulnerable, having humility, these human traits, is really what gets people from that 70% effort to 100%. Because all of a sudden, I'm valued. I can be vulnerable with my boss, because he's built psychological safety. So these are the factors that make a difference. But again, we just think let's set some measures and goals and targets and let them go. Or let's micromanage them.

Daniel Franco:

It's funny, you say that, because you can hold a workshop with it saying 2030 people in the room you go, what makes a good leader? Give me the words, give me those words. And a lot of them say vulnerability, compassion, empathy, all these words come out. They're all behavioral words, not one of them will say, he's really great at engineering. She's really great at auto picking a lot. Like he doesn't Yeah, doesn't ever work that way. It's, it's always about absolute character traits.

Jamie Getgood:

But think about it. What do we train our leaders, we don't train them in vulnerability and humility, and all those human traits. It's actually something that we now do as a business. But it's one of the success, secret sources that we put into the whole model. We started training our leaders in this space. And that's why Holden became such a success. The culture was incredible. But you go to a leadership school, they teach you about performance management and strategy and things like that. And forget the whole whole human element. Yeah.

Daniel Franco:

Yeah. But 50% of your, your actual job is

Jamie Getgood:

behavior. It's probably 70. Yeah,

Daniel Franco:

you're right. So going back to your time, your first HR gig, yes. You grew from, from that position?

Jamie Getgood:

Yes. So I stayed at Electrolux in the HR role for about five years, had some really incredible experiences. Good and bad. I think I did something like six or seven DBAs, in that time, put involved in a landmark IR decision, closed a couple of facilities. So I'm sorry that that started early in my career, but had some incredible experiences under this same mentor. And I think if I had just a day to day HR role, where I was not doing a lot of these unique situations without the mentoring as well. I wouldn't be the HR person I am today. So I got confronted with some tough stuff early on in my career. And to be honest, on the redundancy side, which I do a lot of in transaction or transitional redundancy these days. There was a couple of moments that shaped my whole career and how I viewed redundancy. Can you go into that? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So, one, there was one particular plant we were closing. And we had to make people redundant and I called this particular lady in the office. To be honest, our support wasn't very good. We you know, we had a call it a makeshift outplacement model, which wasn't really supporting them well, and she came in I made her redundant I followed the script that I had, which was not very people focused. And she just literally dropped to her knees and almost laid on the carpet in front of me bawling. And it's something that sort of stuck with me and it's been in my heart ever since that, you know, she was a middle aged woman, single parent, two or three kids at home. Because of her service and the circumstances she wasn't really getting much of her done. See it all. And that hit me going, I'm actually completely potentially sending this woman into a really bad trade, trade injury. And what have I done about it? And what have we done about it as a company, and it really shook me to emotionally as well. And it's, again, I'm talking scary, decided almost 20 years ago, and it still impacts me that vision of her crying on the floor. And it made me through my career, I've had to do lots of currencies and programs, and closures and mergers and acquisitions, and so forth. And every time I go through this process, that memory pops in my head, I'm going, we had to do this differently. And that's how we approached the whole model. When we closed. We said, Let's not do your standard approach, let's do some things different, let's give people every opportunity to have a voice but also have the support they need. So it really shaped my career that first six years,

Daniel Franco:

it's my mind's going in, often in a direction that catches your eye. And it's probably not one that many HR IR people thinking about. You know, with with the rise of domestic violence, like the it's especially Yeah, it's pandemics been going on the the list of of people has gone through the roof, it's risen up risen by 2000 people, something in Australia over the pandemic is something crazy like that. Don't quote me on that statistic, but it's something seriously crazy. The if not done with a velvet glove, right? Hey, it can send someone home in a fit of rage. You know, even if done correctly, can still do that. I understand that. But but done with that, you know, with that velvet glove, it definitely it definitely can change the outlook of what the family might receive when that person gets home.

Jamie Getgood:

Absolutely. And it's funny, again, when I'm looking at a transition program and redundancy program, we're often now talking about the family unit, not just the employee. Because it's not a it's not an employee decision. It's a family decision. And I don't care what anyone says that positive or negatively is going to go home and impact the kids and the, you know, the partner and whoever else is involved. So why wouldn't we support the family? You know, and that could mean counseling for the partner that can mean counseling for the kids.

Daniel Franco:

So there's a greater duty of care. Here's Yeah. And

Jamie Getgood:

you know what, yes, it's not legally required. But I guarantee you, that is going to send a positive shockwave through your business. We often forget about the people left in the organization. When we do redundancy. They are watching and going icily how you treat Joe Bloggs, when he left, I must just be a number. Whereas if you take this additional approach, they actually and we saw this at home, we they actually responded and their performance went up after it uncIe pro

Daniel Franco:

because a lot of these people are their friends, right? Absolutely no mates, you are all working together. You've just taken one of my good friends and smack them over the head.

Jamie Getgood:

But then there's this thing called survivor guilt where they are now feel feeling guilty because Joe Bloggs has gone through this Yeah. Maybe that should have been me.

Daniel Franco:

What Why did they deserve that?

Jamie Getgood:

So again, taking a different approach not only protects the individuals, it also protects your brand. Guess what? We had people leaving home dying? Homeowner incredible. I can't believe how they took care of me through this process. And

Daniel Franco:

its home was closing, right? Yep. And it's some would say you didn't really need to take that approach because it was closing down if you worried about the brand.

Jamie Getgood:

Yeah, we didn't have to. But interesting. In our last four years, we gave four years notice. In our last four years, ourselves and brand metrics improved. We had people coming into dealership saying, well, we've heard about what you've been doing with your workforce. I truly believe it had a positive impact on our business. And yes, we could have done what a lot of companies do and just close the doors. And I'm talking mainly on the manufacturing side. But you know, the shockwaves that this has had in this state in particular. I mean, I've I'm working on a project now and I've got x Holden workers who stood up in front of the rest of the people in this program and said, Hey, I went through the whole story. And this is what we're bringing to this program. Now. They didn't have to say word, the positive advocates.

Daniel Franco:

You know, it's brilliant.

Jamie Getgood:

So the legacy still continuing I just I literally experienced that. There's Wait,

Daniel Franco:

how long were you employed at Holden's before the decision was made to close? About three

Jamie Getgood:

years. So we had, we went on a journey prior to announcing closure of trying to improve our leadership and our culture. And so my first year, three years was all about culture. And we turned it we were a bottom chord, we were performing in a bottom quartile level. And within a space of two or three years, we turned it to be a top quartile business. So we didn't close based on performance. It was all economic manufacturing, yet manufacturing cars. Yeah,

Daniel Franco:

Australia is very expensive. From the labor point of view. You

Jamie Getgood:

know, it's not just labor, it was high Australian dollar. It was a tariff system. It was logistics, we're in the corner of the world in Australia. So just building a car here versus Asia costs 1000s of dollars per car. Yeah, just because of parts logistics. Yeah. Yeah, getting everything over here as well. So there's a whole heap of factors. So it wasn't our people. It wasn't necessarily labor costs, or unions, which unfortunately, people like to say, it was purely economic.

Daniel Franco:

And what was your role? At that time?

Jamie Getgood:

I was director of HR. So

Daniel Franco:

CEO comes to you and says, Jamie, well, you will, it was very public. So it was very public. That kept Jamie, we were closing the doors. I need you to sort this out. Yep. What went through your head at that point?

Jamie Getgood:

Look, there was lots of things that went through my head, some positive, not some not so positive. I think for me, because we had just been on this leadership journey in this culture journey. If I if we had had this decision five years earlier, I think the general leadership approach would have been, let's just give three months notice, let's close the doors. And that's what a lot of companies do. I didn't even have to comment, our leadership team, without me even saying the word we're going, we have to do the right thing by our people. Let's give them as much notice as we can, let's be transparent, let's tell them every step along the way. Let's tell them we're going to set up a transition program. So what I'm really proud that I had an impact on their approach to people. And they're the ones coming to me saying let's do the right thing. What

Daniel Franco:

did you do to get them to that point? Was it just you or was it?

Jamie Getgood:

I can't take all the credit. It's obviously

Daniel Franco:

their willingness to be involved in and learn themselves. Right. But what from a cultural program point of view? What did you was your work on?

Jamie Getgood:

Yeah. So there was I think it was a combination of I had an executive director of manufacturing who had come on the journey and got this vision as well. He wasn't always there. So but we, through this journey, he agreed that we needed to change he supported from, I guess, clouds point of view, the leaders and getting them on side, I had a mentor, another mentor again, actually, when it he was my direct manager. He looked after Australia, New Zealand. And he was incredible. So I had his support. But our focus to to pull it back was, as I said before, how do we how do we focus on the human element of leadership? Because we're an engineering, automotive business. We're all about metrics. We're all about numbers of cars going out the door, we're all about return on investment and hitting every possible metric we could. So quality cost, they were the number one driver. We flipped it on the head back in about 2011 going no, no, I'm metric is now going to be about engagement. And metrics going to be about how do we bring people on this journey and retrain them on the values of our direction and, and why we do things. So that that meant we had to train our ladies and how to do this. So we trained them in, to be honest, I call it being human one on one. We train them in the human elements of leadership, which is the power of a handshake and why you should smile and

Daniel Franco:

saying hello in the morning. Yeah, absolutely.

Jamie Getgood:

We actually, one of the things I suggested in the very first couple of stages was I want every leader to have 30 minutes in their diary that's blocked out every day. And that is purely to walk the floor. Get to know your people. I don't I don't want you talking about work. I want you to know their dog's names, their wife's names, their kids names with a footy team, they support their favorite food, just

Daniel Franco:

talk what was the what was a feedback from that?

Jamie Getgood:

Initially, because this was early in the stage, some of our leaders were hesitant, and were a little resistant.

Daniel Franco:

And I think those who without comes as a focus,

Jamie Getgood:

absolutely. And they were going I don't have time for this and I you know, you don't know what how much effort that's going to take. And so this is the sort of stuff that we were getting in the early stages, three, four or five months down the track. because it was a mandatory thing, we didn't actually make it a choice. I had a couple of key leaders, executives come to me saying, You know what this stuff works. I was walking through the plant today. And you know, Joe Bloggs from this line said this, and he's telling you about what happened with his partner. And he's coming to work every day now. And every time I see him, he's he's telling me about this improvement issue that we didn't know how to fix. He's now now we fixed it, because I can talk to him.

Daniel Franco:

This stuff works amazing what trust does. Yeah.

Jamie Getgood:

So we saw a difference. And I think it was really good to see the leaders buy into this. And go, Wow, just by taking this people focused approach. Not only am I having great relationships, and a good conversation, when I'm out there, My people are responding and our metrics went up, absenteeism dropped, our safety metrics dropped, a quality went up.

Daniel Franco:

Do you have is? Have you got good data on that? Yeah, it's an interesting one. I do is it's one that way as a company always fun. It's the intangible stuff. So you if you've got some metrics to be good,

Jamie Getgood:

I do. I've got Absolutely, in fact, I share it a lot when I will go around and do my speaking events. But

Daniel Franco:

so what are some of those metrics?

Jamie Getgood:

So to give you an example, right, like one off the top of my head absenteeism back in 2009, was about 9%, absenteeism. By by in our final year, full year of manufacturing, I think we're at 3.5%. year where we had quality, we went from a bottom quartile business quality to the number one car plant in the world. Right, we won for five years in a row, most significantly improved plant from a cost point of view.

Daniel Franco:

In your you're suggesting that this is 100%, because of the people focus attitude that you guys had, or is there other?

Jamie Getgood:

I think I would say 80% of that. People, I don't think and this is what I was trying to say at the start, you still need a balanced approach to people focus.

Daniel Franco:

Yeah, that's right. It's all part of one big ecosystem, isn't it? Yeah. Well, you're managing?

Jamie Getgood:

Absolutely, yeah. So we retrain people and gave them empowerment, so they could leave their own little business, their own little units. So there were elements of making sure the systems instructions worked well, with a people lens. So it still had a people focused approach to everything we did. But it had a different lens.

Daniel Franco:

How did you manage the rollout that was a top down or

Jamie Getgood:

Yeah, it look, it was top down, we started with our exec team and said, This is how we want to lead this is how we want to be remembered. This is our legacy. And we did do some mandatory things, you know, like, the 30 minutes, you got to push the button, we learned how to build cars. So I, we had given ourselves a part of the line that we would all learn. And, you know, I learned how to do plastic bumper bars on cars, and I was terrible at it. So there's probably a few cars you don't want to buy, put yourself

Daniel Franco:

in a situation where you can speak the same language and you can understand you walk in the same shoes. It was

Jamie Getgood:

priceless. The shop floor guys were going, what are you doing out here? Right? And then once you get through a bit of the banter and everything else you start seeing from their eyes. Why have you put up with this problem for so long are we raised but nothing gets done, right? So we bring the team ladies involved and supervise, we bring them on the journey. We learned so much you

Daniel Franco:

no longer become a suit, you become someone that they can trust. And absolutely yeah,

Jamie Getgood:

we did other things. We had a program called diagonal slice, which was all about talking to people from a cross sectional group every single day. We told them everything they want to know about the business. We know no more secrets, we told them everything. And it scared the life out of our PR team. But to be honest, it's all part of trust, if you can be transparent with your people, and we made some clear decision points where we were going, Hey, guys, we're going to trust you be, you know, with some information, but we need to be able to trust your back. Don't go and share some stuff with the media. No one did it. So that transparency is important. Great. So it was this transparency piece that made a difference with that particularly so there's a dozen things we did to try and change our leadership.

Daniel Franco:

How do you going like back into sort of the redundancies stuff, and then when you were closing Holden's down, you would have had a few tough conversations. How do you handle yourself mentally through those times?

Jamie Getgood:

Yeah, look. It's funny because I didn't actually talk about it a lot with anyone when I was going through it. I think I felt a weight on my shoulders at times. And there were moments where I probably wasn't coping so well but I just rocked up to work. Read it and just, you know, made it look like I was in control. And I've got this and I'm okay. And I don't need help. And not that that I actually was a bravado about it. I just didn't tell anyone. So I probably didn't take care of myself as much as I should have. What I think happened, though, because I had brought my team on the journey, and we were talking about them and how we were going to support them. There's a few people in my team that would often be I guess, my, I guess, my support, and I don't think they even realized at the time, but they were, you know, often asked me, How are you, Jamie, what's going on you we're working on a lot. And I look back now they actually brought me through this journey. More than they probably realize, so. And I look back, whilst I was trying to be brave. And there were a couple of again, mentors that I had that I remember talking to, whilst I didn't share all the things I was going through. Again, I had, I told you before, I've got a faith and I had a pastor that I would talk to on a regular basis. And again, I don't think he realized the impact he had on me at that point in time. But it was someone I could just, you know, talk to and probably let go of a little bit even I held more in my sleeve. So self care is important. And I've learned on my own personal journey that we actually need to do more in this space.

Daniel Franco:

Absolutely. I think it's one of those. It's a tough area, right? You're, especially if you're an empath, or you're one of those people who take on others issues and problems. I am one of those people. That's why it's an interesting question for me, because if I'm telling people I am thinking about their own life, I am thinking about this school, the children's schooling and what that looks like from their from an education point of view and what this means for their ability to put food on the table, I have to pay the mortgage all the above? How did you manage all those emotions with so many people? Is it something that the more and more you do it the you know, like? I'll give you an example, a friend of one of my best mates is a neurosurgeon, right? And, unfortunately, has seen a lot of death in his life because of some severe injuries. He is now at a point where there's almost the glaze over what is the difference between life and death? So you build a you build this sort of muscle to be able to cope with it? Is that what you?

Jamie Getgood:

I think there's an element of that. I think you're around a lot. So you do just build that strength. But I think at the same time, it doesn't take away the feelings that you have. And I mean, I still, I think I think I'm conscious of it now where I probably wasn't back then. And so I'm actually more of an advocate of being open and self care. And because I actually have seen the floor in effect of me not doing that. And yeah, you know, I probably not probably I wasn't there enough for my kids through that point in time. And you know, and I went through some personal circumstances as a result of all of that, and the flown effect is great. So I think I'm now going okay, yes, in the workplace, I've learned muscle. But then when I stepped out of that door, that's probably where I needed the support that I wasn't giving myself.

Daniel Franco:

So do you think that could you say that your circumstances at Holdens affected your personal life?

Jamie Getgood:

I think it did. I think it did. And, you know, I don't want to be too critical because i There were things I could have personally done with that, regardless of Holden and the circumstance that would have alleviated that. So, you know, one thing I've learned is, you know, self care is one thing but self leadership's another we have to take over affliction. Yeah, absolutely. So we have to be able to look within ourselves and go, Okay, am I actually looking after myself? Am I doing the right things for me and my family? And I think, in doing that self reflection, I also as a leader, and looking differently to my own people going, are they doing that for themselves? And and how can I support them in doing that for themselves? So I think I'm now a better leader, unfortunately, because of the difficult thing situation I've been through.

Daniel Franco:

We've built some calluses over time.

Jamie Getgood:

Absolutely. And, and it's funny because people have said, well, would you would you go through that again, knowing some of the you know, those those that know some of my personal circumstances? And I said I absolutely would, because I am the man I am today because of the scars and the calluses and those circumstances and whilst there's things I would like have to change and get back. It's the difficult times that make you grow sometimes more than the good times.

Daniel Franco:

When you have time for regret, really?

Jamie Getgood:

Why and, you know, move on. You know, I'm very much an optimist. I always believe, you know, there is a positive direction in life and everything will work out for the better. But, yeah, don't view the negative things as something that's going to hold you down and see it as a growth opportunity and jump on it. grow from it, move on and smile the next day.

Daniel Franco:

Yeah. Well, it's an it is an interesting point. And I got from a educational point of view on depression, anxiety, I'm nowhere near where I need to be. But I know that depression comes from thinking about the past. And anxiety comes from thinking about the future, right? So if we can be in the present moment, and not that that will solve all the problems, but it's just, you know, just getting through each day as a start and stops goal setting and planning and doing all the strategizing can can definitely be helped improve those areas. And want to go back into the conversation, some of the conversations that you've had not so much the conversation, but how did you prepare for these conversations? Was there a method that you use to have the someone walks in the room? And did you have a structure towards your conversation? Or was it just off the cuff and each individual was different?

Jamie Getgood:

We were very prepared. In fact, we I've now been able to develop those resources and hone them and tweak them to make them something that people other people can use, you have to be prepared. I think if you go into a conversation, without preparation, one, you're going to say the wrong thing, no doubt.

Daniel Franco:

So when you say prepared his research on each individually speaking to like, their home life and everything like that, or and in their background,

Jamie Getgood:

or I don't want to say that we you know, had a documentary or a dictionary, or what's the right term, a file and everyone in your personal life, because that's, that's not appropriate, either. But we did do some homework, you know, simple things. For example, we had we knew, in some circumstances that Mary had a partner who was working in another plant, right? Just having that knowledge allowed us to treat a redundancy differently. And we did actually do that. So we actually built a process where, because we cared about both parties going, okay, unfortunately, this person's been made redundant. Let's actually have a conversation at the same time with their partner. And then as soon as the conversation is finished, we mirrored them up, we got them some counseling support, we offered a joint couple support as well as an individual support. Yes.

Daniel Franco:

Again, sending him home and then thinking when they're going to get the chat.

Jamie Getgood:

Yeah, well, we could have sent the guy that's made redundant home, because he was not coping and leaves this person working. And what does that do? Guess what? They're going to be on the phone? Yeah. And then you're not being humane because you didn't treat me with respect. You didn't treat them with respect, and now you've upset them and their workmates because everyone talks. Let's be real. Absolutely. So I don't want to say we had a file for everyone. But it was understanding our people well enough to be able to handle their personal circumstances. And sometimes it's not even about an individual approach. It's let's do the humane things like we developed walk plans for every individual walk plan. Yeah, thanks, man. Right? Have you you've probably heard of the walk of shame. You made redundant, you walk past your teammates, with your bag of things. And then it's shameful. You'd like it actually impacts people in their mind in their emotional state of that than losing the job lately, because we all have a level of pride. And so don't do the walk of shame. So we actually if I knew I was going to make Joe Bloggs redundant. Where does he work? What is the nearest and safest exit of course, and develop a literally a plan, we had a map and mapped out where we would walk them to avoid as many people as we could the least amount of people. And in some cases, it literally meant we would walk them out an exit door right next to them. Put them in a car and drive them to that location. Because we didn't want them to have a walk of shame. Yeah. Like, again. So there's this preparation and planning piece. And yes, did it cost more time, effort and money? Absolutely. But it was minimal compared to the impact that had to

Daniel Franco:

do. So you walk people out that day to do it and walk them out?

Jamie Getgood:

No, no, it wasn't quite like that. I mean, we as I said before we go four years notice and number of people knew their date and time. Yeah, okay. However, there was one particular group that we were doing a voluntary system and we couldn't get enough volunteers. We had a fairly sharp reduction. And again, we'd communicate this over The month. So there was one particular moment where we did have to do a Fortran c component. Now, that didn't mean people had to finish on the day. But at a minimum, they were going to go home that day. Yeah. Because you can't necessarily give people when they're when they're crying. And now most people took the option and said, You know what I am? Actually, I'd love to finish today. We welcome that. So again, it was trying to be respectful for every possible scenario.

Daniel Franco:

So jumping back into those conversations, is there a methodology that you followed from a conversational point of view? Like you go, you know, behavior impact, all these sorts of things? Is there? One that you follow?

Jamie Getgood:

Yes, again, we we've sort of developed that entire integrated, that's part of your part of part of our product, and what we do, but there has to be a methodology. And it includes how are you training your leaders? So there's a training component for your leaders as well? Because not only do we want to step out the process and think about people and give them scripts, so they know what to say how to say, have they got the room ready little things are their tissues? And, you know, is the EAP support available? And, and, you know, what, what conversation we're having in transition, we had a flag system on the door. So we had a colored system, so we knew what conversation we're having, and what time and but going back to the leader training, how do we train them? So they know how to handle people's emotions? Right? Because in a change or transition curve, everyone's gonna respond differently. You will have some that will cry in the room have some get angry. So yeah, shot,

Daniel Franco:

you go in with the right intent. Yeah. And someone says something in your ego kicks in and all

Jamie Getgood:

of us. Absolutely. I've had someone trying throw chair at me. Right. And that was because I was telling him he wasn't being you don't know how people are going to handle that situation. So the training piece for our leaders were crucial. How do you handle someone that's displaying these emotions? And anger is a hard one, not everyone's going to get up and get aggressive? Anger can show in different form. So how do you train your ladies in the signs? If you're seeing the signs, what do you do? And how do you step people through that process despite the emotion that they're in? So there has to be a process that steps out? It's a

Daniel Franco:

long, ongoing process, especially when you're working with leaders at all different levels and walks of life? Absolutely. bases? Yeah, it's a it's a big program. Yeah. So it's a crazy, easy, crazy world. Yep. I like you. And I've spoken offline many times. And you've seen some strange things in your Wow. What? What, with you, with you sort of large background in this world? Can you tell us some of the crazier things that you've seen?

Jamie Getgood:

Oh, I don't know where to start? Because there's so many I could choose. I have seen maybe I'll use the term sex, drugs and rock'n'roll because you reckon I've seen everything in that and more. Right. We've We've crossed that off? Yeah. I mean, I have had to in the industrial relations space deal with people were having sex on site. I've had to deal with people who are either dealing doing, or another thing with drugs. Yeah, right. I've had situations where we had a group of people who had made a makeshift bed in the ceiling. And they were taking turns sleeping. Right. What while they're on the job while they're on the job? Yeah. So there's been lots of Industrial Relations matters that we've had to deal with through my career. So we've had we had a particular gentleman who was we found out getting protection money off his team. Right. So he was making people pay him a certain amount every week to keep them safe from

Daniel Franco:

him. From him. Yeah. So again, so give me money, or I'll beat the living

Jamie Getgood:

pretty, pretty much. And no one would come forward. So we had to go through a very long process of coming up with a plan to protect our people, because people were only willing only got one or two be willing to make a statement. If I could guarantee their safety. Yeah, right. Then when you go through a termination process, and I've given them my word, I would not release their information, which makes it very hard

Daniel Franco:

when mission but when this place, this place gets involved and stuff like that, or

Jamie Getgood:

it potentially Yes, depends on the circumstances. But yes, they were involved. But we we also didn't wait too long for the police because we had to terminate this guy could call straightaway. Yeah. So we say yes, police were involved, but it was it was a tricky situation.

Daniel Franco:

So, got the smiling assessment. Have you ever, you know, we've all seen the interview a bit of Antonio Banderas about Yeah.

Jamie Getgood:

Oh, yeah, I'm taking that as opposed.

Daniel Franco:

Okay, good. The era no one really likes an assassin. And you know, you might have a target on your chest. Have you ever felt in danger? From some of the conversations and positions you've been in? Yeah, I

Jamie Getgood:

have. Again, I've always taken the view that if I do the approach Well, with that, I don't want to use this 10 bit velvet velvet Sledgehammer approach. I'm going to alleviate a lot of those issues. There's only a couple of times maybe more than a couple. But there's only a couple of times where I felt that this could go really bad. That gentleman I just mentioned about the protection money was one of them. And he made some threats and police were involved. And that was one moment where I was a little nervous. But

Daniel Franco:

I was just thinking someone like that we almost volley home one night,

Jamie Getgood:

there was a there were definite threats. I knew there was a lot of bluffing. And because the police were involved, there was some, I guess, a sense of security, then I had, that it wasn't going to happen that way. But I'm not gonna hide the fact, you know, when you deal with a tough matter like that, because we had, I'll go back into it because we had stepped out the process and put certain things in place to protect us, myself and the people. I was comfortable that we had done a good process. Yeah. So it's about being smart. So yes, you got to be delicate. Yes, you've got to do it in the right way. But you still need to put protections in place.

Daniel Franco:

Yeah, absolutely. But do you ever feel like, you know, your two young children? 4444. Kids? Yeah, four kids? Do you ever feel like I'm ready to cut out for this year? I'm not cut out for this danger potentially coming into my family? If you know, so it took a turn for the worst.

Jamie Getgood:

If I'm honestly, I can't say this happens every day. It does. Yeah. Well, you're right. We're talking about, as I said, 20 odd year career maybe two or three times. And the only one I truly felt like it could flow on further was this guy, one particular example. I've had people make threats and so forth. But a lot of it's in the heat of the moment, you know that they're not going to do anything they come down. And again, because we put certain measures in place, it's fine. So I can't say it's been one where I've gone home watching who's driving me behind me? Not at all. In fact, I think it's the opposite. I've, if I look back at the closure example where hold, I mean, we had some tough decisions, we had to obviously close a whole industry, in fact, not just home. I fed some of our more difficult employees who have come up and hugged me in shopping centers because of the support that we gave them. Yeah. That's great. So again, if we take the right approach, we the people focus it actually you'll surprise you people generally don't go that way. They'll actually respect you for it.

Daniel Franco:

Yeah, most people just want to be cared about. You see, closed down Holden's right, yep. Walking out on our last day, what that feel like.

Jamie Getgood:

It's interesting, because we were really conscious. We didn't want it to be awake. Right? This is not a funeral. This is not a death. So part of the transition program we had built and that's why for us was actually for us the right timeframe. We were all about building that pride with our workforce. We were all about saying that they were important and we cared for them. And when we finished it was a celebration. It was truly a celebration. And we had this amazing morning with the last car coming off and we celebrate with food and drinks and celebration. And then we took everyone to the Adelaide Oval. And we had we surprise them with Jimmy Barnes and Jimmy Barnes did a little mini concert for our workforce and we had a ball you'd be

Daniel Franco:

spewing if you go to redundancy before that date, yeah,

Jamie Getgood:

that's probably true. But for me, for me, it was those little things that made a difference. And so it was this really odd feeling that we were all happy and you know, in a really good space on our final day. Was it said absolutely. Was it feel like that you're closing a door and you don't know always what doors are about to open up? Absolutely. But, again, I've spoken to a lot of our people through this journey. And they said, You know what? Yeah, it was sad. But thank you for celebrating us. And we had national media attention. And in fact, not just national. I mean, I've had people around the world comment about what we did, and how we supported them. And people recognize that support. So it wasn't awake. It was a celebration. Was it said yes to some of us miss our home and family? Because it was like a family? Yes. But because of the opportunities, people are ecstatic, going, you know, what, I again, I'm on a another transition program at the moment, and one of our ex holding guys is now going through a similar process with this company. And he's going, Jamie, this has been incredible journey. I'm so thankful today of what Holden did for my life. Right? Yes, I miss it. But I've got all these opportunities I never would have had without home. And this is four years on, and he's still glowing, glowing about how we took care.

Daniel Franco:

When you walked out last time, and last day of the job, no longer getting paid to close that. Yep. Where were you in your head? Then? What was your next thought? What were you planning on doing next or two? You're already? Yeah. So again, that process

Jamie Getgood:

again, because we had taken a very strategic and deliberate approach to build transition plans for everyone. So there wouldn't be too many, if anyone within the whole world who hadn't already got some idea of their future, because we had been banging that drum for four years saying, What's your plan? How can we help you? What's your plan? How can help you? So for me, I already had a transition plan. Did I know exactly how it was going to pan out? No, I'd always decided to get into the consulting world and start my own business. And that's where I get good at scheduled consulting. Yes. That's how that started. And I did that for a reason. And this is what not everyone's aware of. I really wanted to give back. So I, in the community space, I actually took on a job two days a week with my church and supported them for a period of time. And that's why I ended up wanting to consult because I really want to do that two days a week. And getting a full time HR senior HR jobs really hard. Yeah. So I thought I'll come consult for a while. And I loved it. I'm still here.

Daniel Franco:

It's so in amongst all that you. You and I've spoken about and it's on my bucket list. Okay. Takota, the Kokoda

Jamie Getgood:

trail.

Daniel Franco:

So you was that? Straight after Holdens that you went and decided to do that or

Jamie Getgood:

now it's actually before home? Okay. Oh, before I joined hold, Oh, easy.

Daniel Franco:

All right. Either way. Yeah. What was some of the learnings and tell us about that experience? Because it's one that I know many Australians want to do? Yeah. It's an

Jamie Getgood:

incredible experience. Look, the Kokoda trail was significant in my life for a number of reasons. First of all, I mean, let's go to what it's all about, to go to Papua New Guinea and walk that trail where our Anzacs are digging diggers, you know, walked that trail with weapons with all their provisions and fought off the Japanese in the war. It made me respect our military. It made me respect our veterans a lot more. Until you I walked that trail. I knew it was going to be hard on you was not good. And I knew what our soldiers go through. But to walk that trail and I had high tech I had super lightweight bang and sleeping bag and I carried my gear. Yeah, I had good gear and it was 17 kilos. Right? Everything I was carrying their gun weights, everything healer. So it just completely changed the way I viewed our amazing military people. That's the first thing Secondly, it taught me a lot about myself. It was honestly, five or six of the hardest days of my life. You know, a lot of people you normally do intense Yeah. Tends the norm. We did it super quick. We were doing

Daniel Franco:

bravado. No,

Jamie Getgood:

it was we were actually walking with some people we knew there okay. And they were actually walking from Moresby to pop and data they were walking home. So they not a day. Definitely not. But they they wanted to get home so they were willing to walk 1012 hour days because for them it was going home and they want to see their families and everything. Yeah, we walk with them, which meant we were doing the same. And what I learned about myself in the Kokoda trail is my ability to push through things and I think in hindsight, I think I got A bit of mental toughness from that experience that I've now taken on into the Holden journey into everything else. There's one particular area, I think it's in the Magufuli ranges. And it's the, the mount of seven false peaks might be nine false peaks. And what happens is, it's hard. It's thick mud, you're carrying a backpack, I was already sick as well, I hadn't got a stomach issue. And I'm walking up talking to myself literally talking to myself going, I can't do this, I hate this, I don't want to be here, my, I'm in pain, my legs are in so much pain. I'm feeling sick. And I just need to deal with that. What that means I'm weak because I'm sick. And I realized how actually mentally tough I was, and how I could push through. Because what happens is you get to a point, you see a peak, and you're going on there, this is awesome. I'm gonna have a break at the top of this peak. And then you get to that peak and it goes up again, you go to seven times. So this mental toughness that you need to have through that journey. It it really, again, it felt like a month that day. And it just felt like constant pain. But I really learnt to push through things and, and, you know, talk about being positive and reaffirming, hey, you can do this, you've got this. So I ended up changing my mindset halfway through that journey going. I can't tell him me, tell myself, I can't do this. Because it's actually making this a really horrible journey. So I actually started enjoying the journey. I started going, I can do this. Wow, that's actually a really nice tree. Look at that view. So I changed my perspective. So when, what have I learned from that, when I was going through the whole journey, I learned to look, stop, respect this time that you're in. And, you know, I can still learn from that today. But I think having a positive outlook is going you know what, I can do this? Yes, I hurt right now. But one more step. And I'm going to be at that peak. Yeah,

Daniel Franco:

absolutely. It's, it's it, you're right, it is a matter of perspective. And the positive affirmations that you tell yourself. And there's a there's a book, I think I've quoted it on this on this podcast before it's called a road less traveled. Scott pick, and the literally the first three lines of the of the book say, life is hard. And the quicker that we realize that life is hard, the easier life becomes right. And so, to me, that's just a matter of changing perspective, as we go into life, assuming what has always happened to me, why does you know why, why, why, why why instead of look, actually, there was other there was something that I heard and it was, instead of saying, I've got to do this, you change the word got to get, I get to do this, right. And it completely just transforms the way you think about things. So everything is an opportunity. Everything should shouldn't be taken for granted. It's an opportunity to learn and grow. Well,

Jamie Getgood:

I've got an upper hand because my last name is get

Daniel Franco:

good. That's right. I often chuckle about that, because you're going into businesses. And it's about getting them from good to great. So you're telling him to get

Jamie Getgood:

businesses I've been in the have a lower base.

Daniel Franco:

Now very good. That sounds like an amazing journey. It's definitely on my bucket list. Yeah, it's gonna try to find people to go with but

Jamie Getgood:

I don't again, but I would like to do 10 days and enjoy.

Daniel Franco:

Yeah, the, if you're out there, you want to, you don't want to kill yourself, you want to at least do the six to eight hour days. So the 12 hour days,

Jamie Getgood:

it's a beautiful experience is beaut like, you're going through this waterfalls, this room is a jungle. It's just an incredible experience. I love that.

Daniel Franco:

So tell us a little bit about get good consulting and the people shift as well. You've opened the people shift.

Jamie Getgood:

Yes. So. So get good consulting. We're a general HR consultancy business. We probably focus on three main areas. The the obvious which I've built a reputation across the country. In fact, I was able to speak in Europe last year or the year before because the COVID is all around that employee transition, that redundancy experience. So we do a lot of our work is actually helping companies do this well. And the people shift brand, which will sort of bring in now was actually the brainchild of my partner was actually her baby, she created it. But what we've done is we've taken the learnings of how to do redundancy well From the 20 odd years, we've got, we've co authored with a couple of other people, you know, Sally Renshaw, who was one of my guys and Holden, and civils experiences, and we will

Daniel Franco:

serve as your partner. Yes.

Jamie Getgood:

And we've created a redundancy program that steps you through everything you need to do. But it gives we give you tools, we give you templates, we give you all the things you need to do redundancy, but it's got two people focus. So it steps you through how to do it. So you don't actually have to create a brand new process. And, and it's funny because I've been in some big organizations that have a process, but every time they go to a redundancy, they're going, Ah, where's that document again? Where's this? And then they start again? Yeah, yeah. So we have a platform now, for to be honest, for a couple of 1000 bucks, that you can get everything you need to do it. Online platform online platform. So it's incredible. So that's, that's the people shift. And that's what that does. But the people shift is also about helping people come on that people focus journey. It just so happens, the fancy tools, the first tool, we're going to build other tools. But then if I go back to Google consulting, employee transition, we help people and companies with difficult transition programs, and we help them take a people focused approach in that, in that area. The second part of Google consulting is all around helping companies improve their engagement in their culture. And often, I'll come in and consult and give you ideas and tips and methods about how to do that. And then the third part is we do have a leadership development type approach. So we do run some courses. I do a lot of coaching. I coach in particular, I've got a few senior HR people now that I am a bit of a mentor. So it depends on the approach that they work. In some cases, I'm in here and other cases, I'm going through their strategic plan and giving them guidance around how they could do that. Yeah. So there is this mentoring coaching L. Alicia development piece.

Daniel Franco:

Yeah, good work. We do it like, as you know, we do. Yeah, very similar work. So and it's very rewarding. Working with leaders especially.

Jamie Getgood:

Absolutely, I think I think you can lead is actually have a fairly big role to play in the culture of the organization. And, and I think sometimes we forget that we're leading, we think we're managers. We treat everything like a project. And if we just step back, you know, look at the replay that clarify the role that you play and the aspects of your role, and how much is leadership? And how much is management? If you actually sit back and do that exercise, you realize that your leadership side actually makes a big difference in the management?

Daniel Franco:

Absolutely. Well, people are, we're all adults, right? So people are quite capable of keeping themselves accountable, accountable. From a delivery perspective, it's our job as leaders to remove the ball out of the way. Sorry.

Jamie Getgood:

It's a true,

Daniel Franco:

you would have seen in your time, some very good examples of humanity. Yeah. And some very poor examples. Have you ever lost your faith in humanity for some of the things that you've seen?

Jamie Getgood:

I can't I've ever lost my faith in humanity, because for every bad example of saying 10 good examples. Okay. So I truly believe that some people lead or are the way they are normally because of the experiences that they've had themselves. And that's not just in leadership, you know, I've seen and I'll be slightly controversial. I mean, I had a union shop steward, who I was talking to at home, who came up to me one day and said, Jamie, I want to apologize for being a prep. He said, the main reason I got into the union is because I was mistreated by my supervisor, I, this happened and that happened. And because of that, I decided to make life hell for everyone. And you've now stopped, you've listened to me, you've, you've actually taken seriously all the challenges that I've had. And whilst I haven't always like the direction, it's gone. I understand why you do what you do. Yeah. And it made me realize that leaders are the same that some of the poor leaders, I mean, I had one particular senior leader in my early days of Holden, who called me every possible swear word under the sun, because I simply asked about how we were leading. But if I look back at how he was grown through his career, that's how he was taught. Yeah. So it's been really about bringing people on that journey and helping them understand the leadership and what it means to everyone around them, not just themselves.

Daniel Franco:

You're 100% right. What do you believe? The future of leadership looks like posts in this post pandemic world? As a few struggling ones out there at the moment, yeah, look, I

Jamie Getgood:

think you're right. The pandemic has heightened a couple of things, you know, I don't want to go into some sort of theory around the fourth industrial revolution or anything like that. But the reality is the world is going to change and COVID has escalated some of that, you know, virtual working and remote working is something that's obviously changed the way we work. And whilst I think there's some real positives in that flexibility can have positives, I think there's also a challenge for us as leaders that we don't lose that human element. And I think that's one of the risks that we face that we can go too far the other way, and let everyone work at home. And don't get me wrong. I'm a supporter. Don't make people misinterpreting me. But there has to be this human connection. You don't build relationships purely on a phone, or a screen. Now there are you can do things that will help that. And this is where I think leadership needs to evolve. We need to and I've started doing this teaching people about digital body language. Right? How people respond on the screen. What does that emoji actually mean? What are what are the language we're using in our emails mean? Right? So you could put in an email, good job. Now, if that's all you put the person reading and I go, Is he being sarcastic? Yeah. Or is he being serious?

Daniel Franco:

You can't you kind of assess tone over, correct. I mean,

Jamie Getgood:

we know that, you know, nonverbal cues, body language and facial expressions makes up 40 over four times the impact then the word you actually say?

Daniel Franco:

Yeah, absolutely. So it's funny even say that I had someone the other day said to me, just by someone not having their zoom camera on. They took offense to it. Yeah, this is if they don't what they don't want to see me or look at me.

Jamie Getgood:

Yeah. And, you know, we can sometimes be tuitions.

Daniel Franco:

Oh, yeah. That's right. Yeah. 100%, but everyone's coming from their own base, right. So absolutely, under their own perceptions.

Jamie Getgood:

But at the same time, I tend to agree that we need that personal interaction. And if all you can do is a zoom, call and see someone's face, then that's, for me, it's still important. I still think that even in this flexible world, as leaders, we need to build avenues opportunities, scenarios where there is still connection. So I'm not saying you can have virtual remote workforce, I'm saying you need to build in that face to face interaction somehow. Yeah, I agree. And there's a human element that I think in this fourth industrial revolution that we want to call it. As AI enhances, as the Internet of Things changes, as blockchain becomes more valuable, those people and raw human skills are going to be more and more important. And I actually think the HR world has an opportunity here to help people on this journey, because we've only seen the start of it with the pandemic. If you read some of the research on the Internet of Things, and all these changes that are coming, it's going to get more challenging, more challenging. So we have to have those core human skills or relational skills. That's going to be what gets us success in the future. So of course, there's gonna be things like digital literacy and

Daniel Franco:

adaptability, all this other stuff. But you're right, it's how do we actually get the people to move forward with this?

Jamie Getgood:

Absolutely. And that's why companies like yours and mine are important. And I think if you're not listening to a company like this, you actually need to because the human element is crucial.

Daniel Franco:

Yeah. Great. And when he to help, and provide and support? Well, I'm here to tell no course. Yeah, I agree. Right. So where we'll pass the markets, whatnot a little. We'll, we'll start wrapping up. I have some quick fire question, I guess. And these these never turned quick fire that long, because

Jamie Getgood:

I'll do my best if someone is very,

Daniel Franco:

very philosophical. So we can we can deep dive but we're very big readers here. At synergy, IQ and creating synergy. What are you reading right now?

Jamie Getgood:

I'll never forget the name of the book, Patrick Lencioni. Yeah. I think it's good. I'm forgetting the title, I want to say advantage or

Daniel Franco:

the motive not knowing, you know, the five and the five dysfunctions of a team

Jamie Getgood:

and I, I want to say advantage, but I could be wrong. So that's the current one, but the one that I always turn back to right now Great. Next question, what's one which would be multiplies by Liz Wiseman? Okay, great book. It really is about how as a leader, we can multiply the potential of our people by treating them like people. You know, it's

Daniel Franco:

a great book and other podcasts you listen to, apart from this one, no, this one has to be on everyone's subscribed now as to be on everyone's lips. But what's one that you would listen to?

Jamie Getgood:

So interesting, actually, so, because you are starting your own two, I am starting my own. There's a couple out there. So not not so much HR related. There's a guy called Ronald Miller, how it's more marketing related, but he has a really good view on people. So it's a mix between marketing but also with a people type lens. There's a guy called Craig Groeschel, who does one. Yeah. He's based in the States. Again, that's more Christian focused leadership, to be honest, he doesn't talk about Christian leadership. He talks about leadership. Yeah, he's got some amazing traits. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, there's probably the two that come to mind.

Daniel Franco:

Nice. Who do you admire? Or look up to?

Jamie Getgood:

Current or yesterday?

Daniel Franco:

Whoever, what something what, who was someone that's inspired you?

Jamie Getgood:

It's not an easy answer for me. And there's a dismay Gil's philosophical and deep, but I think I admire Jesus in the sense that I really respond to the way and Whether people believe in him or not, and everything else. The way he led was very much a servant leadership. He was firm, he could handle conflict. But he was always fair and a lot of wisdom. And he really showed people how to lead their life. In a more modern day era, there's a number of people I've got, I mean, I've got, again, a couple of my mentors, like Jerry Quirk. And I see when added to that stand in mind, but if I was to look in the public arena, I also don't always follow everything he does. Some of the clips I've seen of Simon Sinek, and some of those sort of voices. I love the fact that he's challenging that thought process on people leadership. And, you know, again, you can have different views on some of these topics. But we need people like him who have a voice who can challenge the way we lead. You can talk about Brene Brown and her work, and a data lead and things like that. I know you guys do via that as well. Some of that work is incredible. So there's lots of people I look at maya, but it's hard to pin it to one person.

Daniel Franco:

Yeah, it's a very open ended question. Yeah. What's some of the best advice that you've received?

Jamie Getgood:

Some of the best advice I've received? Look, I think. I think it's purely around. And I'm not going to get the phrase, right. Because I can't remember exactly how it was put to me. But it was, it was really highlighting that there will always be a better path tomorrow. And maybe that's not how it was said, I'll go down that path, that we believe we are a speck in this timeline of what we know on this earth. And every moment that we make every decision that we make, every step that we take, not only has an impact on our timeline, but other people's timelines. And I think if as a individual, we take every step, trying to make a difference in someone's life and other people's life, I think we are actually going to have a fulfilled life ourselves. So, you know, as bad as the past may have been Forget the past, except that the negativity has empowered you to be the person that you are, and then use the position and influence that you have today to make a difference in someone else's life.

Daniel Franco:

Perfect. I love it. If you had access to a time machine yet one trip, so upper back, where would you go forward? In time or back in time?

Jamie Getgood:

I wouldn't go forward because I think we create our future every single day and every moment. Look, I've made some mistakes in my personal life and in work life. I think if I could go back in time and not do some of my personal mistakes. And maybe, you know it's a tough question. actually

Daniel Franco:

is a tough one. Because I'm going to challenge you on that. You said I've got no regrets. Yeah, no,

Jamie Getgood:

no, no, definitely not. I think, you know, if I went back in time, even through my whole journey, and somewhere right in the middle of the closure program, I would do a couple of things, I would have probably spent more time with my kids. Because that has had a flow on effect from a personal situation, I would probably will take care of myself more. And last part of me saying no, leave that alone, because it's made you who you are. And now it's given me an ability to help others because I've been through it. So part of me is going I don't know if I want to change that. Because the scars give me credibility and vulnerability to help others. So it's probably my kids, to be honest, I probably through that whole journey, gave my heart, soul and time purely to the people holding don't get me wrong. I'm grateful for it, because I've made a difference. But it did impact my family.

Daniel Franco:

You had one superhero power pool? What would it be?

Jamie Getgood:

This is actually a question we asked on our podcast, I've actually got an answer to this. Excellent. Right. For me, it would the be the ability to truly understand people's I was gonna say personal circumstances, that's not the right word, I want to say but understand what makes them tick. What motivates them? What, what allows them to be the best they can be? So if I had like, a personal radar, where I could go, Okay, you actually would like that. And that's going to give you the maximum potential. And I'm not even talking about getting business results, the maximum potential to be you. Because I know if you can be you, you're going to be better at work.

Daniel Franco:

So having this have like their blueprints?

Jamie Getgood:

Yeah, see the blue? Absolutely. That personal? You know, maybe it's like, X ray is, yeah, but you can see what inspires and motivates.

Daniel Franco:

It's no matter of influence, because I could work the other way. You could.

Jamie Getgood:

I'd like to think I have all my powers for good.

Daniel Franco:

Yeah. Yeah. There is a book actually called the 48 Laws of Power, okay, by Robert Greene. And it's earmarked as one of the most evil books they call it one of the more evil books because it literally tells you 48 different ways that

Jamie Getgood:

Hussein can use it the manipulation Well, yeah, but but he

Daniel Franco:

he's, he's aspect on it is, I've written this so you understand how people can use it against you. Yeah. Right. So it's always there's always a spin.

Jamie Getgood:

And there's always a kryptonite for

Daniel Franco:

really an end. Being a father for you. Sure. We got a good dad joke in the back pocket.

Jamie Getgood:

Just try to think is it appropriate? Yeah. Here's the one that popped in my head was

Daniel Franco:

we're all adults here. So

Jamie Getgood:

what was it it was something like Why was the beach embarrassed? Why? Because the seaweed. It's that's the first popped in my head.

Daniel Franco:

It's supposed to be bad. It's funny right? Now, brilliant. Thank you very much, Jamie, it has been an absolute pleasure having you on the show. We were in deep in some parts, which was great. I feel like those who listened they would have actually read a lot about you and even some of the approaches and the way you go about it. So it's very enlightening to know there's someone out there like you who has this human human approach. Thank you. Which is why a big part of the reason why we wanted to get you on Yeah, thank you. Where can people find you?

Jamie Getgood:

Look, easiest places probably at get good. Comdata you. I'm heavily on LinkedIn. And most people will know that. So LinkedIn is probably the easiest and best way. Yep.

Daniel Franco:

And you're happy for people. Absolutely.

Jamie Getgood:

I welcome.

Daniel Franco:

Beautiful. Thanks for your time today. Show me it's been a pleasure. Thank you, Daniel. Thanks, guys.

Synergy IQ:

Thank you once again for joining us here at creating synergy. It's been great spending this time with you. Please jump on to the synergy IQ Facebook and LinkedIn page where the discussion continues after the show. Join our mailing list so you'll know what's happening next at Synergy iq.com.au. And of course, don't forget to subscribe to this podcast. And if you really enjoyed it, please share it with your friends.