Sara Siami is the Head of People & Culture at SWEAT, developing and leading the people strategy across the organisation. Having been there from very early in the companies Journey, Sara has contributed immensely to the success of Sweat, helping it grow to be one of the world’s largest communities of women in the fitness arena.
Sweat is an innovative technology company in the health and fitness sector, founded in South Australia by Tobi Pearce and one of the world's most influential fitness persons, Kayla Itsines. Sweat connects a community of women with the world’s best trainers, technologies, content and products that helps enable them to lead their best life.
Always having a passion for human behaviour, Sara actually majored in Criminology, legal studies and sociology, before she went onto her graduate diploma in Human resource management. Previous to Sweat, Sara provided business partnering solutions to Coca-Cola Amatil in South Australia and Northern Territory and provided organisational development and workforce relations solutions at TAFE SA.
In this episode, Daniel and Sara talked about Sara's Journey to the role she finds herself in today to leading the people aspect of one of the most successful startups to come out of South Australia and how they managed through the times of rapid growth. They discussed the ups and downs of the HR world, from trying to find quality talent, to managing teams that are working from home.
If you enjoy this episode, please share it with your friends and colleagues, and check us out on synergyiq.com.au.
Where to find Sara Siami
Join the conversation on Synergy IQ LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram (@synergyiq) and please support other leaders by liking, subscribing and sharing this podcast.
Access SynergyIQ Website to get to know more about us.
Say hello to our host Daniel on LinkedIn.
Books mentioned on this episode:
Sara Siami is the Head of People & Culture at SWEAT, developing and leading the people strategy across the organisation. Having been there from very early in the companies Journey, Sara has contributed immensely to the success of Sweat, helping it grow to be one of the world’s largest communities of women in the fitness arena.
Sweat is an innovative technology company in the health and fitness sector, founded in South Australia by Tobi Pearce and one of the world's most influential fitness persons, Kayla Itsines. Sweat connects a community of women with the world’s best trainers, technologies, content and products that helps enable them to lead their best life.
Always having a passion for human behaviour, Sara actually majored in Criminology, legal studies and sociology, before she went onto her graduate diploma in Human resource management. Previous to Sweat, Sara provided business partnering solutions to Coca-Cola Amatil in South Australia and Northern Territory and provided organisational development and workforce relations solutions at TAFE SA.
In this episode, Daniel and Sara talked about Sara's Journey to the role she finds herself in today to leading the people aspect of one of the most successful startups to come out of South Australia and how they managed through the times of rapid growth. They discussed the ups and downs of the HR world, from trying to find quality talent, to managing teams that are working from home.
If you enjoy this episode, please share it with your friends and colleagues, and check us out on synergyiq.com.au.
Where to find Sara Siami
Join the conversation on Synergy IQ LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram (@synergyiq) and please support other leaders by liking, subscribing and sharing this podcast.
Access SynergyIQ Website to get to know more about us.
Say hello to our host Daniel on LinkedIn.
Books mentioned on this episode:
Welcome to Creating synergy where we explore what it takes to transform. We are powered by Synergy IQ. Our mission is to help leaders create world class businesses where people are safe, valued, inspired and fulfilled. We can only do this with our amazing community. So thank you for listening.
Daniel Franco:Hi, this energizes and welcome back to another episode of The creating synergy podcast. My name is Daniel Franco and today we have the wonderful Sara Siami. On the show. Sara is head of people and culture at sweat, developing and leading the people strategy across the organization. For those of you who don't know Sweat is an innovative technology company in the health and fitness sector. founded here in South Australia by Toby Pierce, and one of the world's most influential fitness persons. Kayla had seen us scenesse Sweat connects a community of women with the world's best trainers, technologies, content and products that helps enable them to lead their best life. Having been there from very early in the company's journey, Sara has contributed immensely to the success of sweat, helping it grow to be one of the world's largest communities of women in the fitness arena. Always having a passion for human behavior. Sara actually majored in criminology, Legal Studies and Sociology, before she went on to a graduate diploma in human resource management. Previously to sweat Sara provided business partnering solutions to Coca Cola Amatil in South Australia and Northern Territory, and provided organizational development and workforce relations solutions at TAFE. Sa. In today's podcast, we talked about Sarah's journey to the role that she finds herself today to leading the people aspect of one of the most successful startups to come out of South Australia and how they managed through the times of rapid growth. We discussed the ups and downs of the HR world from trying to find quality talent to managing teams that are all working from home. It was an absolutely amazing chat with so many pearls of wisdom coming from it, and I'm absolutely positive that you will enjoy. If you liked the episode, be sure to hit subscribe and check us out at Synergy. iq.com da u cheese. So welcome back to the creating synergy podcast today. We have the lovely Sara Siami on the show. Thank you for joining us today.
Sara Siami:Thank you good to be here.
Daniel Franco:Sara you are the head of people and culture at Sweat, correct. Sweat is a global leading fitness app. Yeah, for females. How how has the journey been so far?
Sara Siami:It is that's a that's a huge question to answer.
Daniel Franco:We'll start actually, we'll start before we unpack that we'll start previously, you've mentioned to me a few interesting facts about yourself. Yeah. One that I thought was quite funny thought I'll bring it up, which was that your half Scottish half Iranian born in England, raised in the UK decided to move to Australia. Can you tell me a little bit about that journey from from when you grew up to moving to Australia, and then how you ended up in the head of people and culture? Well,
Sara Siami:yeah, it's a bit of an odd story. So Scottish mum, as you said, Dad was studying in Scotland. So from around studying in Scotland, they met kind of moved to the UK moved back to around when my mum was pregnant with my sister. And then the revolution started, which was really interesting time. So that was in what 1979. And so basically, you know, at that time, what politically really unstable. So my mum decided to leave kind of pregnant. And it was a really kind of risky situation. And that stopped flights and all this kind of stuff. So she essentially kind of fled. And then my dad was able to follow her shortly after, it was quite sad because they had to just leave their house couldn't say goodbye to family, like literally just had to pack up in the middle of the night and escape the country. So where do they escape? So they ended up in England, so kind of round mom's family, which was good. And then I'm not really sure how we ended up in Australia but early 90s I think they decided they just wanted a better life and probably more warmth and sunshine and for those better opportunities in Australia. So moved over here the family. So how old were you when you came? So I would have been about seven? Okay, so you shouldn't have any accent at all? Well, I tried really hard to get rid of it. When I started school over here. I used to get bullied for it. Yes. And so I tried really hard to get rid of the accent as quickly as possible. So
Daniel Franco:amazing. Yeah, Michelle, my business partner is has had the same problem come to school from a young age. In fact, my my parents same thing. Yeah. From Italy. Same thing bullied because of the way you spoke. Yeah, kids can be pretty cruel
Sara Siami:It was so confusing. I'm like, but you're part of the Commonwealth.
Daniel Franco:seven year olds think that way.
Sara Siami:Yeah. Yeah. So they essentially grew up in Adelaide, and then School University and then headed over to Melbourne for a year, and lived over there and then finished off uni in Melbourne, and then came back to Adelaide.
Daniel Franco:So you studied criminology and sociology, correct? Yeah. Tell us a little bit more about the interesting.
Sara Siami:I think when I started uni, I was 17. So I guess looking at preferences at age, like 16, 16 and a half or thereabout, and not really having any clue like as a 16 year old? How are you meant to know? Like, what direction what path to take? It's just yeah, a lot of pressure. My sister is five and a half years older than me. And she kind of just said, Look, why don't you just enroll in a bachelor of arts you can, you know, learn about an array of topics, and then kind of pick something that suits you more. And I just ended up doing more sociology and criminology probably just from watching too many crime shows and watching crime stuff.
Daniel Franco:And there's an element. I mean, if you look at to where you are today, yeah, working with people, right. So there's an element of that people aspect in what you're doing, and what you
Sara Siami:study employees and criminals.
Daniel Franco:understanding human behavior, especially from a sociology. Yeah,
Sara Siami:yeah, definitely. Um, yeah, so always interested in kind of like, analyzing people and yeah, definitely had employees that have gone to prison over my time. But um, that's another problem.
Daniel Franco:Gets I'll get a question later on about something like that. So, okay. It's very good. Well, it's about the unusual stuff that you
Sara Siami:say. Yeah. Um, yeah. And then so I finished my bachelor of arts the last year in Melbourne, because I think life was just a bit too easy. I was studying at Flinders and working in everything was just going smoothly. And I was like, Well, this is too easy. Why not make my life really difficult. So packed up in? Yeah, finished last year cross institutionally at Monash University. Okay. So first time moving out of home was interstate. And that was a huge shock to the system. Yeah, it was really great, great experience, and then just decided to come back to load as soon as bit too cold. And I'd been working two jobs in Melbourne to try and, you know, fund my uni and living expenses. So it wasn't really the most fun time. And in hindsight, I probably hadn't really thought about that very much. But nevertheless, great experience, and then realize that a Bachelor of Arts is kind of just the starting point in education. Was it really going to help me get a decent job? So I went back and studied a Graduate Diploma of human resource management at UTSA. So while I was working full time,
Daniel Franco:yeah. So what sparked that interest in you from Yeah, thinking, well, actually want to get into HR here?
Sara Siami:Yeah. Again, this is probably really bad to admit, but no real [inaudible audio]. Again, I had like a, a friend, who's a bit of a mentor to me, like a little bit older than me. And, again, they were studying HR at UTSA. And kind of said, look, I think you'd be great in this career. Like you've got, you know, X, Y, Zed kind of qualities, you should check it out. And I think because I just respected this person and had no other great ideas. I was like, alright, let's just go and explore what that looks
Daniel Franco:absolutely awful. It's good that you listened, because? Pretty good career today. Yeah. So you went. So where were you when you were studying? And when agenda ended up at Coca Cola at some point,
Sara Siami:correct? Yeah. So I kind of started my HR career at down at ATI, which is like blue collar constructions. I was in the roads division. And that was super interesting as like a 20 to 23 year old woman going into road construction with color industry. Yeah, like amazing, people learn a lot. And then I was there for geez, five and a half years, I think. And I thought, you know, it's probably just time to move on and get some other experience still loved working there. But just wanted more experience. Move on to Coca Cola Amatil. I was there for two and a half years, again, learn a lot. So both companies really big, like head office, space and state. So it's kind of just implementing, like strategies and execution. But you know, after some time at Coke didn't really feel like it was aligned to my valleys and wanted to head off and go somewhere else. I thought that, you know, maybe getting a bit of public experience would be really good. So I ended up at TAFE, which was aligned to kind of my learning Valley and had about two, two or so years there. wasn't looking to leave at all was kind of enjoying it to a point, a lot slower paced than coke and quite frustrating in many aspects in government. Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, some amazing educators there. And some amazing students that just want to learn, but it's like the two don't always kind of marry up, which is really, like frustrating and a bit disappointing at times. But anyway, again, was kind of learning out there. And then the role of Sweat popped up. And I wasn't working at all, but I had about three people separately, kind of send me the rug. So I was studying to be a personal trainer at the same time.
Daniel Franco:Interesting, interesting. Yeah, as well.
Sara Siami:Just interested. So if I go back a step, like my values are around like curiosity, adventure, learning, health, wellbeing. And you'll you'll probably kind of like see that theme like hence the year studying to be PT on the side, like continuously just learning, studying whatever I can, and that kind of curiosity and wellbeing piece. So I think people don't know me. Well. We're like, wow, this is dream dream job for you like this is it? You have to go for it? So I kind of reluctantly did to be honest. Went for interview number one, which are almost canceled. Really? Yeah. Because again, I was just like, Nah, it's not the right time. Like, what am I like seeking to achieve, I guess, but decided, again, my curiosity kind of got the better of me. I was like, well, if anything, I'll make some like, you know, really interesting individuals, just by going to the interview, and I might learn something great about a South Australian business. So went to the interview. And then I was just like, wow, this is this is a pretty special opportunities in the interview. So it was Toby. Toby PS. Yep. CEO, co founder of sweat. I'm the operations manager at the time. Yeah, so I think it was at that point that I kind of realized, hang on a minute, I should probably actually pursue this. More seriously. Yeah. Well, how
Daniel Franco:big was the company then?
Sara Siami:So when I started, I think there was 34 employees. And then we've grown that to over over 120. A bit less now. But yeah, over 120 At one point, and we've opened a second office in the state as well. So it's a significantly different company. So when I started, so we have a state, did you? So we opened in Melbourne, in November 2019. Yeah. And then closed it for so we opened it for three months and then closed it for about 11 months. So it's just reopened. Yeah, just had our official reopening party about a month ago.
Daniel Franco:Yeah, what a disaster. Anyway, that's a whole nother subject with a pandemic, saying you've come in as a HR manager and then worked in your into the head of people. Gotcha. Yeah. Great, great opportunity.
Sara Siami:Yeah, definitely. I think, um, you know, when I started, you know, Toby was like, a 25 year old, I think, just 25. keyed in many aspects like it. I mean, that with complete respect, like 25 is super young. Yes. So young. Like self made millionaire, complete genius, but not surrounded with the right people to actually execute the genius going on in his brain. So when it went, I went in, there wasn't really a leadership team. At all, there wasn't just like the level of experience in the company in the organization. That's, you know, changed significantly. The leadership team we have now like I've recruited and on boarded, every single one of them. 11 of them so completely different. Yes, skill level and capabilities. But it's been such a good journey to kind of get where we are today. Yeah.
Daniel Franco:So I have to confess, I've got a little bit of a man crush on Toby.
Sara Siami:Who doesn't. That's why I'm here.
Daniel Franco:We'll get him on Oh, hopefully. But I reckon if I had him on, we'd speak about books for the whole time. And Eric in the woods, sweat, we get mentioned once. I'm a big reader, and I actually follow him in he talks about books that he's read, and I think we've just yet had a lot of the same, the same opinions towards some certain things. So what you're really interested in, but what I am interested in is, you said that you're one of your values was learning and growth, you know, and and that aspect. He's big learner. He's, he's a big radar, and he's all into that philosophy. Does he? Does he expect them? Do you bring that learning aspect into sweat? Is that a big part of the core values of sweat?
Sara Siami:Yeah, definitely. So I mean, he doesn't bring it in, I guess formally, but it is just part of our coaches. So we have a sweat library. Okay. Yeah. And we always kind of in our weekly internal comms will have book recommendations or podcast recommendations. And I think just the nature of our business, you have to continuously be learning. So a from a member perspective, like what are our members wanting because they're continuously evolving. So we have that kind of learning culture there. But just as well, in terms of, you know, new competitors coming up every day, new ways of doing things like the digital landscape just continuously evolves. So there's no, there's no opportunity to kind of stand still and be at the top of your game. Yeah. And I think yet, like one of Toby's top strengths is learning as well. So yeah, he's he's always bringing new books and kind of dropping new frameworks or this and that, and then, you know, we'll scurry off and try to understand what he's actually talking about. Yeah. Yeah.
Daniel Franco:It can be disruptive. I think I'm probably the same in some aspect or write some new piece of information. And this is the way we should be doing. Yeah. Have that expectation that everyone just knows what I'm talking about, even though they earlier I had no idea. But yeah. So I'm just you you've bought, then it. So you've worked with Tony, you've come in? And then how did you then move into the head of HR? did? Was there an opportunity? Did someone leave? And you got the nod?
Sara Siami:No, not at all. So it was more just, I guess, establishing the leadership team and different levels within the organization, and just leveling people up. So there's a pain say, manager, that's what now? Yep. So essentially, I just, I guess, was reclassified almost or, you know, brought in line with the rest of the team that we've been building. And, and kind of went from there. So.
Daniel Franco:Yeah, brilliant. So you, I mean, you've you're, you're one of the first HR people hired the first, the first year? And how have you coped with the exponential growth? That sweat say, not only in Australia, but as global isn't? Like it's one of the number one fitness apps in the world? How? How just Can you unpack that? For me? I know, it's a big question. But how have you gone from the perspective of managing and leading the people through this transition of extreme growth?
Sara Siami:Yeah, that's a it is a big question. I think for starters, like having the right team in people and culture is super important. So you know, hiring people that are really agile, that lay their egos at the door, that are willing to, you know, work outside their, like, traditional kind of scope is super important. And we do that with all the employees that we hire. So we go through a really, really vigorous kind of approach or process, I should say, in terms of who are the people that we want, what types of skills they have, what kind of attributes they have, are they going to be okay with ambiguity? Are they going to flourish in ambiguity? Like, how are they going to respond to change because that is really critical. So, you know, we'll have people that you know, come for an interview, and they say that they're, you know, find was fast paced. Yep, like change. But you can read from people's body language like, are they leaning in? When they say that? Are they actually sitting back in their chair? Are they moving their like glass of water in front of them, like having a defensive body language, like, we assess these kinds of things, so we can really actually determine how will you fit and that's not I guess, the sole purpose that we're doing that is to make sure they're successful, because that's what we want. Like we want people to come in. And we want the shortest amount of time between their onboarding and then adding value to the organization. And then feeling like they're winning, like shortening that journey is really important for us. But I think as well, like open communication, so we communicate a lot like a significant amount.
Daniel Franco:So what's what's what's that look like? Yeah, significant amount, once a week, twice a week, every day.
Sara Siami:So we so organizationally, we have weekly communications that go out, then we have like an instant messaging tool that we that we use as well. So if a key kind of exciting, calm, like we've got, you know, if we have a launch, for example, will, you know, the CEO will put comes out on there and get teams excited and celebrate wins and that kind of thing. Then we have a monthly we call it a sweat connector. It's like a town hall. So we will get together once a month. And you know, we'll celebrate service awards, any kind of, you know, retrospective key things, key items that we've been doing. We then have, like quarterly team bonding, all managers. So we have a weekly leadership team meeting as well. And then all managers are expected to have weekly team meetings with their teams, and you're expected to have monthly one on one. So there is no kind of like there's no loop missed. Correct. And then we also have neighborhood stand ups every week as well. So there is no way to kind of escape communication. Yeah. And is
Daniel Franco:there an agenda on every single one of these items, or is it just to get up in?
Sara Siami:Yeah, not we have an agenda like some in some of the forums. It's relatively loose. But there's always is always an agenda. Because we always want to make sure that we're getting across the key messaging and bringing people on, like, whatever journey that might be. So we do have standard kind of agenda items. But then it's also important to allow for a bit of flu, like fluidness, I guess, to make sure that we're actually focusing on what's important for people at that time. Yeah. And sort of direct communication, and just yeah, the transparency in comms as well. So we try and be as transparent as we can, which in some organizations isn't necessarily the way that people communicate.
Daniel Franco:And it's the best way Oh, 100 makes people feel really comfortable. Where you going? And what you're doing. Yeah, and what they're actually here for the purpose, the vision. So what is the purpose of sweat? I mean, I look, I think, fundamentally, you can look at it and you go, we're trying to change people's lives, trying to help them feel better, and actually concentrate on their health. But where does what is? What is done like, for sweat? Like, where what are you planning on growing to? Yeah, and were you planning on going,
Sara Siami:I don't think will ever be done. But I think for us, it's about you know, how can we increase the the number of women that we support, essentially, so, you know, through every kind of stage of somebodies life, like, how can we be there supporting people, so, you know, we've got post pregnancy workouts, we've got a lot and Pilates bar, etc, etc. But there's still like a huge portion of people that we're not actually capturing that we're not supporting. So for us, it's about, you know, increasing our offering, increasing the diversity of our trainers, from, you know, ethnicity to like, workout type to body shape type to, you know, everything, to just to grow to support more women.
Daniel Franco:It's a really interesting question, the diversity piece that you pose, I think, if you think of any sort of fitness or gym, or any aspect, it's and look and to be honest, if you go on your website, there's it's sprawled with images of very fit people. What is your as an HR practitioner? What is your diversity inclusion method? Is there an expectation that people really concentrated on their health and fitness? Or, you know, how do you hire and onboard for for that?
Sara Siami:Yeah. So we're actually just about to launch our diversity and inclusion strategy, so excellent, very timely. Yep.
Daniel Franco:I didn't know that.
Sara Siami:But if I asked like we the employees, it's really, you know, we don't necessarily hire people, you know, that have to be, you know, interested in fitness or workout or Yeah, like,
Daniel Franco:there's no like, every single person in your office is like,
Sara Siami:there's no like benchpress bonus. Yeah, financial yet. No, no, no.
Daniel Franco:Not there's no disrespecting. It's just if you're running a fitness, yeah, you're extreme that Yes. People are interested in health. Fitness. Right. Yeah.
Sara Siami:And yeah, so what so it really depends on the on the topic, like if you're an exercise scientist working at sweat? Sure, definitely, if you're a data analyst, I don't really care what data you've been looking at, like, as long as you love data, and you're at the top of your gaming data. Great. Like, let's talk. Yeah, I think generally, for anyone, like having an interest in the industry your employer is in is definitely beneficial. So just like when I worked at KOKO downer, like, I would go out on site and visit, like, literally the guys pouring Asheville and they'd be so excited to talk to me. And I'd be like, cool. Like, that's awesome. Like, cool. Yeah. But you know, that's where I go out on site. And I'm, like, you know, watching kale or getting filmed or whatever. And I'm like, wow, that's really cool. Yes, it's more interesting, but yeah, connected. Yeah. to the cause. Yeah, definitely.
Daniel Franco:So on that onboarding process, we're actually sorry, no, we didn't touch on your diversity inclusion. Where were you going with that? Is that you're looking at a whole range of you, from trainers to
Sara Siami:I can't really talk about. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah, I guess I can say it's on the roadmap. I don't even know if I can say that. I think internally, you know, we, the diversity has changed significantly since I've been on board. So like, when I started at sweat as an example, I would have been the oldest person or one of the oldest, and I'm not that not that. You know, so we've we've changed the age demographic significantly. And, you know, I think culturally we're pretty diverse that sweat like we've you know, can make Some improvements pretty diverse, like our workforce is 60% women. But then that ratio in leadership positions is not, I guess proportionate with that makeup overall. So we've got some work to do in our leadership positions. But we've got a whole kind of strategy and roadmap on how we're going to try and start to bridge that gap and make some improvements.
Daniel Franco:Good. It's I think it's what we're looking at at the moment. So I'm really interested in how you and Toby and the team grew a business, world class business from Adelaide. Yeah. And there's some of the ups and downs that you would have faced along that growth journey.
Sara Siami:There's all there's a lot.
Daniel Franco:And is it just purely it because of where you are? Or is it just the actual ups and downs of business in general,
Sara Siami:I think a bit of both, to be honest, like being in Adelaide, I hate to say this, because I do love Adelaide is restrictive. I think
Daniel Franco:it's, for what reason
Sara Siami:to get talent in some of the technology roles has been really challenging. So I think, like, you know, Toby, and I, because we've worked together for so long, we've got like a really good working relationship, you know, and when you have high trust in relationships, you can, like everything speeds up. Alright, so if you think about it, like after 911, as an example, like getting through the airport, because there's low trust, the speed of that, like, decreased significantly, because there's all these extra security checks, all these extra things. So when you have horserace, things just work quicker, and it's just faster. So I think that's been really helpful, because we make decisions super quick, like, we will disagree, and sometimes I'll just, you know, live with it, and he goes, makes a decision I don't agree with and vice versa, but we'll trust each other to kind of own it, and that we are making the best decision. So that's been really helpful in terms of just, you know, impact, like being empowered to actually just get on kind of do my job and make recommendations. I think the the talent shortage in NSA was an issue, particularly when we were looking to grow our technology teams. It's changed now significantly, but I kind of campaign Toby for probably three or four months, every single day to let me open an office interstate and he was dead against it. So eventually, I kind of won that battle, I think, I think his resistance probably came from the like added business complexity, added cost. And just the complexity, and as well, I guess, at that time, we still didn't have you know, all the members of the leadership team that we have now. So I think his confidence in I guess, in managing, you know, what we needed to do in the control around that would be reduced with, you know, an office in the state. Yeah. So I think that was probably a little bit of a barrier for him as well. And as well, like, I kind of forget and sometimes point out to other people as well as myself. Like, he's, he's only 26 or 27. Like, he hasn't worked in a corporate organization where there's, you know, 15, 20 offices, and you know, you've never even been to head office and those kinds of things. So, really different. But um, yeah, so eventually he's not that old now knows. Now he's 28. Okay. Yeah, it was a couple of years ago. Couple years ago. Yeah. So 28 Still, relatively pretty young. Yeah. But anyway, so yeah, open that the that Melbourne office. And it's been working really, really well. So we were able to kind of double our technology team and getting some really, really good talent.
Daniel Franco:So with the world the way it is now, though, yes. Is that office required? Still, uh, you know, from a weekend? You know, I think you we've had a previous conversation where we discuss Canva. Yeah, who've gone fully remote work. Yeah. Is that an option for you, as well for sweat as well. It's something
Sara Siami:that we're talking about at the moment. So, you know, we still have a little bit of a barrier. As an example, like, we will find some great talent and they're in Sydney and we say, okay, can you relocate to Melbourne or Adelaide? And kind of at the moment, you know, Melvin's Okay, now, but about a month or two ago, they were like, Well, why would I relocate to Melbourne? You're like, Well, fair enough. I would neither can you come to Adelaide. So there's, there is still a little bit of a barrier, but I'm really loads to open us up to fully remote working because probably the most special thing and like the superpower of sweat is the connections and the people and we saw with COVID The, the disconnects, start just start to form, you know, with new people coming on board and not being able to meet people. It's, it's a much you know, it's a different scenario to, you know, being in a team and then going and working remotely. It's completely different. And now we're all back in the office, we kind of reconnecting and you know, re establishing those key relationships. And the teams are kind of saying that they want more of that. And because now we have work from home two days a week, the offices aren't as full because obviously, you know, proportionately not everyone's there. And one of the key things is they want more of those connections. So it's kind of like, well, employees asking for more connections, and they're asking, you know, can we actually all see each other. But then on the other hand, we've got, you know, employees and ladies saying, Oh, but we want to hire remotely, everywhere. So as a business, like we need to go on a bit of a discovery journey and understand well, what are we actually happy with? With, like, saying, no issue, like, what are we happy to risk? Like, are we actually happy to say, okay, like, we'll take a cultural hit, and it means that we can get more employees remotely? Or are we not going to stand for that, and we're going to stand by our culture and understand that that's something that really makes us effective as a team, and you miss out on some of those skill key. Those key skill sets? Yeah. So we're kind of at that point at the moment.
Daniel Franco:Well, I think you were going back to the roadblocks in Adelaide might provide is if you are going externally, and you do want to build that culture, invite them over, do you pay a Sydney wage was the payment headline wage? Exactly. And then all of a sudden, you got this big wage discrepancy between those who have been iron and laden? Yeah, it's a it's a bit of a nightmare. How do you plan on navigating through that?
Sara Siami:I think we just need to understand, I think it's too early to make any decisions that are so critical to changing the path of the organization, I think we need to just kind of do some really thorough research and have a look at best practice. So yet Canva have now been hiring people remotely, from Adelaide, and we've seen some impacts of that. I think a lot organizations are starting to do that. But I'm really keen to understand like, if we fast forward six months, what is the impact on their culture? And then what is the impact on their actual performances in organization because of that?
Daniel Franco:When they go from strength to strength? Yeah. Yes, no, I think I think the world is sitting back watching not just camera, but a lot of businesses. There's other businesses in South Australia do the same thing as minerals, I believe, you know, saying all their meetings are online now. And, you know, the sort of conversations are happening more and more often. Now. What is the toughest thing for you right now, in go after going through a pandemic, from from people and culture perspective, animal and business perspective? What is the toughest thing? Moving into this new way of working in this new era?
Sara Siami:Yeah, I think one thing is like our teams that are people and culture team, probably specifically, a tired, like, we're really tired. You know, it's been an incredibly draining time without sounding hugely negative. And we're now seeing the impacts of or sorry, like the the annualised impacts now, which is almost a positive in a way, because it's not kind of like all let's just put a bandaid on this thing that we're doing. And we'll see how this all kind of plays out. It's like, okay, it's been 12 months now, like, this is the new playbook, we need to actually re establish that. So I think, I think understanding how to, like innovate some of the things that we were doing previously for this new world that we're in, which I kind of find exciting. But I think also that cultural piece, like we were just talking about the remote working like we've had, you know, all of our employees in Melbourne being at home for so long. And now we're kind of saying no, you have to come back into the office for three days a week, you know, we'll support you still from working from home at times, but just the shift for them. And the shift for our kind of Adelaide team members as well with that. So I think
Daniel Franco:actually with
Sara Siami:Melbourne traffic and stuff. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And people use, you know, we've got a lot of Melbourne in placing I have it takes me an hour to get to work like two hours a day. Yeah. Like, can we just work from home more? And it's like, Well, yeah. Oh, like, yes, no, like, it's those kinds of decisions that we now have to make so well, they were working on effectively for 10 months. Like, is there really like what really is the impact? But then when you go down that then you think well, what really is the impact? If we hire someone in Queensland or what really, you know, then all these little impacts add up
Daniel Franco:is the fear that they just become a number within the business as opposed to people who connecting and building relationships is that the biggest fear?
Sara Siami:I think so. Like, I don't think they would become a number from our perspective, but I think maybe, you know, particularly some of the roles like in engineering that maybe work a little bit more isolated that don't necessarily feel like they need as many touch points. I feel like they may see themselves like that which I don't want to happen.
Daniel Franco:Does it give people an excuse to not get involved as well working from home like you know, Do work drinks and stuff like, yeah, if you're having afterwork drinks on a Friday night, and you've decided to work from home on Fridays,
Sara Siami:yeah. Maybe but then I don't part of me is like, Well, do you want to force people to come to things anyway? Like, I like no, I don't. You know, will there be groups of people like that, that maybe then find their own thing that they're more like, interested in, in doing probably like in that would be a better thing. So we've got a culture club that swear that the paint a manager heads up that's filled with our employees who were who were members, I think about maybe 10 of them. And there's a big culture calendar that's kind of run annually. And in that we have a number of different activities to try and make sure that everybody's involved like, you know, regardless of their preferences. So last month, oily this month, sorry, a few people well, actually quite a lot. I think it was maybe 25 People went and donated blood, the Red Cross was an example. And then we have like coffee cart coming tomorrow. So like, there's all different things. So, you know, we find that everyone's interested in something like we did Harmony Day in March. We really try and, you know, keep everybody involved in included. Yeah, an opportunity to be included anyway,
Daniel Franco:you know, that's, it's brilliant. Is does that then come back to your onboarding, you know, process of actually bringing in the right people with the right behaviors who are willing to get behind the cause? Yeah, I mean, it looks like everyone wants to form unicorn, but is that really what you guys set out to achieve when hiring people?
Sara Siami:Yeah, absolutely. So there has been plenty of really talented people that we've interviewed and gone. No, no, thank you. Yeah, like you're brilliant check. Yeah, I'm not interested. Yeah, we do we say that like entirely up to them. Yeah. But we do like we won't love it. It's really Jack. Like, we talk about it all the time. We call it unicorn hunting. That's our recruitment, update. Unicorn hunting. Yeah, we don't want brilliant jerks. We just in our culture is too important and too valuable. Like we protect it. You know, we really, really protect it. But part of the the onboarding process. It's a six month process. And really, initially it is learning about sweat. And that is, you know, listening to podcasts that Toby's done, you'd be excited to hear that Toby's book recommendation? Yeah, you know, some of the stuff Kayla's done and really just learning about the history of the business, the culture, enterprise wide, like, what are our expectations, and then we get to the department level or the neighborhood level. And then lastly, it's about learning your role and having goals around your role within that six months, timeframe, and then having like, really regular checkpoints. And so what we do is we really set people up from the beginning of like, these are all the things that we think will make you successful. Follow this roadmap, you basically can't go wrong. If you do go wrong. If there is some misalignment then, you know, it's noticed very, very quickly. Yeah. And then, you know, conversations happen really quickly as well to try and understand like, why that's happened. Yeah,
Daniel Franco:well, yeah, lack of lack of communication, potential breakdown, misunderstanding, will basically just come into play. Yeah, I'm gonna challenge the Boolean jerk, though, is there enough? Is there potential for, you know, hiring in sameness, you know, you want you kind of get the same sort of people that you hire over and over again, is that is, you know, we want a good bloke and we want to we want a good cheat or something like, yeah, you know, is that zero? Is there potential for that yet?
Sara Siami:Look, I don't think so. Because, you know, our values that we have, for values have a number of like behavioral indicators underneath them. So we definitely do not want the same people that sweat. Like, we want different thoughts. We want different experiences we want, you know, diversity in in every way. But we still don't want you to be a jerk. Yeah, so that's fair. Yeah. And look, to be honest, like, there's been one or two occasions where we have hired a brilliant jerk. We knew we were doing it. But we did it for reasons that I guess we should change, you give nature and we knew there was like a finite time on that, that role. And you know, we wouldn't do it again, because I think the damage that it caused probably still outweighed the benefit even though we were really conscious of what we were doing at the time. Yeah, yeah,
Daniel Franco:we've all been there. Yeah, we've all done that we've brought in people because of the need outweigh the the behavior that we required from a cultural perspective, the native the actual work itself. But I do believe that you're right and I think you should compromise on that. You should never compromise and in fact, almost pushed the work. The deadlines of the work out a bit. Yeah. To accommodate. Yeah. What what keeps you guys up at night.
Sara Siami:In pain, say lands
Daniel Franco:in sweat you sit on, sit at around table. Yeah, what you know. And yeah, obviously confidential, you don't have to mention some things. But what's something you know, when we talk competition staying innovating? Are these areas that keep you awake at night? There's all these new apps and exercise programs that are coming out. What do you guys see with that?
Sara Siami:I mean, we certainly keep our finger on the pulse in terms of competitors. But I think we have such a long roadmap of things we want to get out in the app, and, you know, other content that we want to release and, you know, other trainers or training styles. And, you know, there's so much that we want to do, I think, you know, one of our biggest kind of issues is just velocity or speed, to be able to execute and at the velocity that we want. And we've significantly improved that in the last kind of a year and a half, like, you know, when I first started, I think we were releasing, we're doing two releases a year. And they were huge. Like, we'd get to that release day, and everyone would collapse and be exhausted. It was like the biggest thing ever. And now it's kind of every six to eight weeks, there's like another huge drop. So our ability to give members what they want has increased. I think what keeps us up is just our ability to be able to continuously do that. And do it faster and better and quicker.
Daniel Franco:And well, especially, as you mentioned for that exhaustion. Yeah, those things that is coming in is that yeah, does that affect the mental health of the people as well, of our members of your people? If that's what's keeping you up? Yeah, consistently upgrading the model that you have the exhaustion that it brings upon you people and only to then overcome that and start all over again, for our next release. Had it Yeah, managed through that.
Sara Siami:I think we were so structured and systemized now that it's becoming like a really good flywheel. You know, we've spent a really long time kind of setting up our like corporate services, so to speak. So we've got a really great project management office, and everything is becoming a good flywheel. I guess, having said that, though, there's still a lot of things that we're doing, like for the first time. But again, we kind of hire people that find that exciting, because there's people that are brilliant at their job, but they would find that absolutely exhausting. So we find that people that, you know, think that that's exciting. But it's really important to, you know, recognize that and understand like, how do we actually keep people motivated, like you said, and not not burn people out or anything like that. So we like put a fair bit of focus on trying to celebrate our wins, and really acknowledging people really rewarding them. So as an example, like we've got a reward and recognition kind of platform. And on Friday, our CEO went on there and did about 13 employee recognitions. Like, it's really, you know, and very detailed and considered, yes.
Daniel Franco:Does it just words, words of affirmation, what is
Sara Siami:yeah, it's more like, literally, like, you can pick what value it relates to, but it would be like Daniel, you know, your work on the podcast on episode 18. It was so insightful, like, I really found this to be valuable, like keep it up great work. So something that's really incredibly meaningful to employees. And I think having was having that for me, CEO, I like I don't know, I've never worked in a nation where you were CEO would take time out to do that. And then all the other leaders say that, and then they will go, oh, I have to say, yeah, he's making time to do that. Bit of a shit later on, we've done that for a month. So then they go on into it. And as this, you know, just positive kind of domino effect, which is awesome. But I think they are the part is we like our leadership programs, and a lot of the internal capability uplift we do is around emotional intelligence, and how to recognize kind of your own emotions, when are you actually getting exhausted? What are you doing about it? You know, what are your how your leaders helping you? And just managing that piece as well. So we talked a lot about the scarf model, which is explained don't know this government. So it's around like status. So you know, particularly around it, like if there's change or a new project or something like that, like how does that impact your status? certainty? So status from hierarchy point of view? Yeah, could could be so you know, last time we're on a project, I was the project manager on that, and he's talking to you so you know, like, you probably have will have emotional reaction to that. Yeah, potentially. So yeah, yeah. And it's probably absolutely not no interest. We're sharing the love correct. But like as the leader it's just being aware of that so like status certainty. So you know, that comes back to our common space. So you know, we over communicate and be really transparent so people aren't guessing things people have certainty. Autonomy So again, kind of like really trying to empower people. So we
Daniel Franco:do we miss See, certainty or certainty. Sorry? No, that's all right.
Sara Siami:So autonomy is it again, kind of putting in, you know, the right kind of systems framework, so people can just make decisions and you don't need to, you know, wait to be told or asked. That's critical. Yeah, exactly. So relatedness I had is, how does it kind of impact you? So what's your relevance to the thing? So, you know, if it was a project, that your project managing, maybe I actually don't really care that much, because I'm working on something else? And that's not my domain. So no impact? Or, you know, conversely, perhaps that's actually really relevant to me, because I'm the person that's at stake. I'm Yeah, exactly. And then the last part is fairness. So how do people you know, think that whatever that that, you know, changes or things like, how do I perceive the fairness? And it's completely irrelevant as to whether you personally deem it fair or not, it's how do you think that person will feel about it? And so we, we use the scarf model a lot. And we use it kind of on ourselves. And in the paint a team in particular week, we call it mittens instead of scarf. I don't know why. But anyway, we've evolved to that. It's not an acronym. It's not it's not I think we just didn't want to go around saying scarf. So we say missions, but anyway. But it's a really good key because we'll often you know, somebody has a reaction in the team to something that you think oh, that might you know, what's going on there. You know, we'll we'll literally say to each other Hey, you wearing your mittens, like, check yourself, like what's triggering for you? And then we'll kind of have a conversation about, you know, what is it that you that's kind of irritating you about that? Let's talk about it and kind of work through it. It's super helpful, because a lot of the time you go, you know, I actually just being really, I'm saying Marshall about like, there's no logical reason. Yeah. Cool. All right. Now I can see it, and I can unpack it.
Daniel Franco:So if you're not having a conversation, you go down and you're wearing your mittens. Yeah. My, my response would be to use a scarf model in Yeah, I'm actually I'm feeling challenged in my status. Is that how you go? Yeah,
Sara Siami:yep, exactly. Okay, tell me what?
Daniel Franco:Yeah, yeah, I really like that. Yeah, that's a great model. And you mentioned flywheel earlier. Yeah. It's a Jim Collins things you correct. Do you follow a whole bunch of these frameworks? Is it?
Sara Siami:Yes. That one's a by a special. Yep. What else? I'm really only the Speed of Trust at the moment. He talks to me that will come at about 50 pages in but
Daniel Franco:you know, the basic concept? Yes. Yep. So it was you wouldn't be reading it?
Sara Siami:Yeah, it's very. Um, so again, so that's about trust being Hang on, let me let me think about it here. So trust being like granted, and, and so that's like the two versions of trust, but I can't remember the trust of goes into storing the map to different ways. So you are really into it. Now, just having a mental blank.
Daniel Franco:So and and try so when is it is the whole concept of trying to reach and attain a level of trust quicker? Is that
Sara Siami:No, I hang on. Sorry. Okay. So so there's different elements of trust. So one part is essentially, like character. Yeah. So that is your like, integrity. Your Cartman with the other words that go into behaviors? Yes, actually, behaviors. They've kind of got categories underneath there. And then the other part is your capability. And that is around your results. And your like achievements. So in the integrity piece, there's also it's around intent. So do people think that your intent is like aligned with like, what you're actually saying it is? Yeah. And do people actually see like, are you saying one thing kind of doing another? Yeah. So it's integrity, face integrity, transparency, they break it down into yet another like Covey. Oh,
Daniel Franco:is it Stephen Covey? Yeah. Is it in? It's not in the is good to great. So this is
Sara Siami:a separate boss. Okay, so it's Covey Jr. Jr.
Daniel Franco:Oh, no, hang on. I'm thinking Collins will talk. No, no. Yeah. Yes, Stephen Covey. Is Tony easy. It's not any Seven Habits stuff. Yeah. No, that
Sara Siami:is some so that book when they talk about the gardening like the garden. Yeah. So the sun in that he's written a sport. Ah, yeah. That's pretty interesting. So anyway, so it talks about essentially integrity capability. And it goes on to like, define those things pretty thoroughly. And building trust is essentially fake. Each of the kind of categories, there's different ways in which you can build trust. But it's really interesting because if you think about a person that has really like high integrity, and low capability, like they're kind of harder people to think about,
Daniel Franco:what does that person look like? How do you have integrity? Well, yeah, no, you're right. Yeah. Isn't an intelligence level?
Sara Siami:Well, it could just be somebody, you know, have you ever worked with somebody where he like, I just, I felt great at their job. Like, they're lovely. God love them. But yeah, like, I'm not gonna ask them to help me this. I'm gonna go ask. Blah. Yeah. Because? Because you don't really trust them. Right. So integrity
Daniel Franco:is where resentment builds.
Sara Siami:Exactly. Right. Exactly. But then conversely, like, it's easy to think about people that are capable, that have low integrity, like there's probably a lot of politicians that maybe come to mind where he like, wouldn't trust them, like integrity wise, but calculi. Wise, yeah, they can get the job done.
Daniel Franco:Yeah, there's a lot of poor leadership. Yeah. aspects, not just yeah, the political world, but all aspects of Yes. Where people are really super smart. They were brilliant jerk. Right. Yeah, they? Would you trust them? And yeah, believe everything that comes out of their mouth. Yeah, probably
Sara Siami:not exactly. Exactly. Why we're talking about?
Daniel Franco:I don't know, but I absolutely love the so all these models that you use is, how do the people take it within the business? Are they on board? Is it a lot to learn as so many acronyms? are, you know, we've got a model for every sort of project is, how do you manage that and keep everyone on top of that?
Sara Siami:Yeah, I think, you know, there's probably only a few like the scarf model as an example that we really kind of formally as a business kind of stick to the rest of it is really just through that kind of 70% on the job learning and just like osmosis from each other. And like sharing with our teams, so I think because people are generally it's were like quite interested and want to learn and want to know more, you kind of mentioned something and everyone were like, Oh, what was that? Yeah, versus a kind of compliance of, hey, here's a book you have to read it like but you know, Chapter Three by next week, yeah, report, it's, it's definitely not like that. Yeah, it's more, it's very, very organic.
Daniel Franco:So if you've got a model like scarf, which I think is fantastic, first time I've heard about actually think you've got a model like scarf, then do then equip the your people, the people within the business on how to have those conversations as well is that I can add an element to it.
Sara Siami:Yeah, definitely. So we have a program called Lead strong. And that's, it's a six day program for our leaders. And it's they learn the scarf model. And then they also have like a coaching module, as well, with an external facilitator on, you know, building those kinds of skills. And then we have a lot of like, tools that people can read. And then within all of our performance reviews, you know, OKR setting, and that kind of thing, again, it's always like, here's a toolkit, like before, you know, we're in that phase of the coaching cycle will always have, you know, workshops with leaders around. Okay, cool. So these are conversations that let's have a, you know, a refresh on our coaching questions and those kinds of things. So, we look, you know, to implement and embed this in various different ways, and consistently as well. Yep. Yeah.
Daniel Franco:Is there an expectation when people walk into the business that they they understand the brand of where we're actually trying to go and what the vision is that one? So when you we go back to the onboarding aspect, and bringing all these these people, not the non brilliant jerks in business? What does that first week look like from an onboarding process? And then what is the expectation of how they hold the brand? Yeah, from that point
Sara Siami:on? Yeah, I think we, we don't assume people to understand the brands like, you know, people generally have a high level, you know, understanding of the brand. But that is something we teach through a lot of material and a lot of collateral that we've built up over the years. Because again, you can't assume as well, that people's understanding of the brand is actually aligned to what our vision for the brand is or how we internally talk about the brand. So you know, there's a huge a huge tech teaching perspective, or element I should say, rather, when people come on boards, you know, there's not really any huge expectations so people and again, it depends on the role like if it's a PR person as an example, we're going to expect that they have a pretty good understanding by You know, if it's a developer, for example, we probably hoped that they have at least downloaded the app and had a bit of a play and maybe found some bugs. Yeah. So it's a, I guess a relative to people's experience and discipline that they're in.
Daniel Franco:I'm interested in this could be a question for Toby on another day. But is there is are you planning on doing like a similar app for male as well, the male counterpart just is sticking to the female
Sara Siami:counterpart to that.
Daniel Franco:Like, it's interesting, because, like, I know, people who have seen the app, I think it's brilliant. That'd be good. For me, someone who needs a little bit of extra motivation. Alright, we'll skip that, but that's all right. We don't have to dive into that. By all reports, sweat sort of the the revenue increased over the COVID period, which is was that obviously, more people working out from home, which talks to the business model in itself being brilliant. It's accessible at any point in any time, is, was that a big part of the burnout that you saw happen to some of the people within? Well, when I say the burnout, the tiredness that you saw that happened to some of the people that it was just all guns blazing through that time?
Sara Siami:Yeah, it was a super, super interesting time, like, I'm sure it was for a lot of businesses, we pivoted extremely quickly. So I think when the world kind of went into lockdown, or when Europe and the US went into lockdown, I think within 48 hours, we released two new at home workouts, just like the fastest turnaround we've ever had. But it really brought people together because there was such a, you know, shared purpose and shared goal that had such a, an intensity to it, it was really actually great for the teams. You know, and then we partnered with the United Nations, and we extended our free trial. So then only seven days, I think we gave people in your like three months, because, you know, locked in your house for three months, essentially, like, you know, I guess we felt like we could try and help more people. A lot of those people, you know, ended up signing up for that, which is great. And then we continue to realize kind of at home content, and you know, got really smart about it. Like Kayla released some videos on her social that was kind of like, Hey, here's a workout. If you're in an apartment, it's like low noise impact. So there's no like jumping on, you know, neighbors just as low as kind of like, really? Quarantine. Yeah, totally. Which I think was fantastic. And to be honest, like, I think early on, like, we all felt a little bit like guilty that our business was doing so well. And you kind of look around and there's, you know, other businesses really suffering. And you talk to your friends falling apart. Yeah. And you talk to your friends and colleagues, and it was just all doom and gloom. And you're almost kind of like hoping people don't say, oh, so how sweat going? Because you're like, Oh, we're actually going really well. Like, but again, like, you know, we all had to kind of check ourselves and remind ourselves of what are we actually trying to do? We're actually trying to help people. Like, are we helping more people? Yes, we are. So like, that is actually a really good thing that we're able to support people. And I think the tricky bit for our team was just the Melbourne team being in lockdown for so long. I think the second wave of lockdown really impacted them because I'd had that kind of sense of freedom and, you know, things were starting to return to normal. And, you know, us in Adelaide, we kind of felt less guilty that we were free. And then that second lockdown happened. And, you know, a lot of the people in Adelaide office just felt so bad because you talk to your colleagues and you'd have meetings and you know, you talk about your weekend. And then you'd be like, Oh, how was your you're stuck in your house? Like I feel awful. Like, I think there's almost like a bit of survivor's guilt that we had to kind of encourage our Adelaide team to, to work through. So I think that was a really big challenge. Yeah, obviously, we pass that now and everybody's probably closer and more resilient, and more appreciative of their freedom and luxuries that they have. So yeah.
Daniel Franco:Do you feel that the Melbourne team have grown a new armor resilience through that time? Or is it something that they're still coping with three to six months down the track?
Sara Siami:They bounced back is just amazing. So I went went over there. I've been there twice now I think since we've reopened and as I said, like we had a little party and got one of the two of our trainers to come up come over and have some games and all that kind of thing. And they just they're just amazing, like the like nice group of people just so supportive to one another and they're all You know, it's still very much probably feeling the impacts, but you wouldn't you wouldn't know it. They just very future focused. And just, I guess, ready to kind of move, move on to the next thing and kind of get over that and just keep moving forward. So they're just incredible. Yeah.
Daniel Franco:Going back to really see the type of people that we hire because there especially from a workforce planning point of view, the resourcing, being able to resource good quality people in the world we see in defense, they're struggling, the mining, they're struggling, everyone, everyone's struggling in these industries. It sounds like it's no different to you. Yeah. It's your industry, really? How big upon you. And I've spoken about intrapreneurship. Previously, how bigger part does tie me and yourself play in when hiring people looking for people who who will innovate innovative, and coming up with new ideas on how to grow this business? Is that something that you look into a lot?
Sara Siami:Yeah, definitely. I think I'm particularly when we're building out the leadership team. Because early on, you know, going back a couple of years now, you know, when you're setting a new setting up or establishing a new function, you seldom kind of get it right the first time. And, and that took us a little while to learn, like, we probably made a few mistakes in the hiring because we just didn't know like doing you know, I've never set up a function before. We've never set up a function before. Is that okay? Yeah. Why lighting? Yeah, sure. Started just trying to make it work. Yeah. But probably learn early on that there's definitely like different characteristics that you recruit for. And you look for on that you that you hire, like, I think that innovation piece is really big, but also, you know, people who are not afraid to just get their hands dirty, and that are also like quite detail orientated. And, you know, not afraid to be curious. Because every kind of door you open, there's a whole just blank space in there, where you go, are there's nothing here, I have to make it up and make it up in a way that's sustainable as well. So yeah, really different, like Toby's a lot less involved in recruitment and the day to day at the moment, like he's built, we've built out a really great strong executive team, and a great leadership team. So he's kind of less involved on the day to day. But certainly earlier on, it was really important. Oh, hands on. Yeah.
Daniel Franco:What is the culture of making mistakes? Like, yeah, you if you bring in on these people, especially these leaders, who are empowering their people to go out and do some great work? How do you reward or recognize the mistakes that they've made along the way?
Sara Siami:Yeah, I think for us, like the mentality around mistakes, like you can make mistakes, that's fine. You can learn from them, that's fine. It's a problem for us if you're making the same mistake, or if you're making mistakes that are avoidable, or that are just kind of incompetence, like if you make a mistake, because you thought you're doing the right thing, and you try it and it didn't pay off. That's cool. We'll learn from it. We move on. The other scenario, not ideal. But
Daniel Franco:we can't just blindly go out and just correct you need to have some sort of strategy. Yeah,
Sara Siami:correct. Correct. And so we, you know, again, it's really hard because we've got such a big roadmap. And it's such a long list of things that we want to achieve. It's not like we're all out there kind of just going, Oh, I'm just going to like throw mud at the wall and see what sticks. It's like, we've already got such a big backlog of stuff that we want to do that we know is going to work out. We've already kind of validated. So we do a lot of member research, as well, which is usually important to kind of shape the direction of where we're heading as well. Yeah, yes.
Daniel Franco:So on that member experience, the customer experience piece, how much time and effort do you put into the customer experience? Yeah, aspect.
Sara Siami:So we have a quite a be well, big. I don't know if it's big, big crossmember support team. Yeah. They're all online, though. So there's no phones, nothing. It's all kind of email and instant messaging. Kind of member research insights team is small, I guess for the amount of data that we have. But we really just flex up and down with externals, which I think is a really smart way to go about it. So we're not kind of carrying that overhead. Yeah, we're not able to utilize the services as much so yeah,
Daniel Franco:is that all done off site? Off? Sure. I don't use a certain app to know at what program like this CRM. Yeah. Yep. Which one do you guys
Sara Siami:so we've got like our own intern. Okay. Sarah, and then we using an external provider, like a huge provider, I think we just changing providers at
Daniel Franco:another time. I'm hitting them all. And none of this is free. Alright, we'll skip past that. I am conscious of time, we were just past the hour mark, which is fine. It's not a problem at all. But in a sort of previous actually, we asked, we send out a questionnaire to all of our people, before we get on the show, and one of the one of the answers that you provided us that you were really interested one day in writing a book around all the all the experiences that you've had in HR, unusual experiences, is there. I'm so curious about that. Is there one particular experience that you can share with us confidentially, obviously, but without naming names, I should say, but yeah. Is this something that you can share with us that you're gonna write a book on?
Sara Siami:Yeah, there are, honestly, so many, I don't even know where to begin.
Daniel Franco:What's a common theme that you would see in HR, what's a common pitfall?
Sara Siami:I think a common pitfall would be I don't know if it's like a pitfall, but I think like people's expectations, being managed appropriately, is always an interesting one. So we have I really don't know how to phrase this, like, people who maybe come into a business and, you know, maybe don't have a great understanding of the role or like, the level of the role within an organization and come in wanting to create a lot of change without necessarily understanding the impacts of the change, or like the scope of what they've actually been brought in to do and getting really kind of like headstrong around that. Okay. So that's actually really dumb on
Daniel Franco:Well, not really, if you're saying it's a common thing that you're saying is that people actually their egos probably getting in the way of them being able to deliver the project. Yeah,
Sara Siami:I think I think the better way to put it would be people actually not understanding their own emotions. Yeah, if I'm gonna give a proper answer that, like people not understanding their own emotions, that EQ element that you're talking about, yeah, achy. And then people actually like blaming others for situations like I can't do X because of y. And y being an external thing. You know, I kind of personally find that really frustrating. But then it's up to leaders to also help people on that journey. And I think there's a big kind of gap in a lot of organizations, with leaders being able to even observe that themselves and kind of articulate that situation and be able to create meaningful change with people. Yeah. And that's a big barrier. I think it comes down to that ego pace and AQ pace.
Daniel Franco:Well, I think you look, this is something that we haven't mentioned before, and it's in the work that we do in a cultural issue change sort of space, it's the it's the lay of the managers have. I don't know what percentage it is, but a very high number of people are promoted into a management position because of the technical capability. They have very, very minimal understanding of how to lead a team how to have tough conversations, how to set KPIs all the above. And that's where we see a majority of effort of the failures come from in that aspect. It's not necessarily that the people in the team don't know what they're doing. It's just they're not being clearly communicated or LED. Yeah, in a way that they should be.
Sara Siami:Yeah, definitely. That's spot on. All right.
Daniel Franco:Well, we'll start to wrap up at the end of every podcast you may have heard I did it with Adam, we we asked a few quickfire questions just off the cuff things that it's just really sort of understand I find it quirky to be the fun at the end. So but one thing is we are the greatest here at creating synergy. I know you I know. You have to sweat library which I'm going to come and check out at some point. What's one book recommendation that you can provide on people who are looking in whether it be leadership whether to grow their career, understand human movement and behavior, anything in that sort of people and culture space of understanding, kind of become even more be emotional intelligence coming in better? Yeah. becoming a better person but a human is out there. Right? You
Sara Siami:really should have prepared to this Courage to be disliked. I cannot remember who the author is.
Daniel Franco:But we can put it in the show notes the courage to be disliked. Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah, and what learnings to get out of there?
Sara Siami:Again, it's all around kind of that personal responsibility and accountability as well. So almost kind of, in a way, like calling yourself out on your own bullshit. And actually understanding why you do X, Y, and Zed instead of having a almost, like, lazy view of why you do XYZ. Yeah. So like really understanding yourself and your own actions and how you kind of influence your own pathway and your own environment.
Daniel Franco:That's an interesting one. It's probably one that I need to read. Wait, yeah, sometimes I would. I don't know if I have. Michelle and I often have these conversations where I feel like I've got this approval addiction, or some people call it the it's almost like the salesman bow tie, right? Where you want to get results. But you also want to make sure everyone's happy. And yeah, in this constant. So the courage to be disliked. Probably needs it. Yeah. Excellent. If you were to give yourself your 10 year old self some advice, what advice would you give them?
Sara Siami:It would be around just actually believing in yourself. Because 10 year olds that don't know that they can't do things. And it's so beautiful. And I don't know at what point when you grow up, you actually lose that. And you become conscious of all the like self limiting beliefs and all the barriers that may or may not actually exist. And I think working in sweat kind of highlights to me on a daily basis. Like if you actually just believe in yourself, you can, you know, really impact
Daniel Franco:with a pair of the mindset. Yeah, growth mindset versus the fixed is. Yeah, it's huge. Yeah. Carol Dweck book is one one. Yeah, absolutely. Once you write, what's one item on your bucket list?
Sara Siami:I really want to I say, I don't get everything. I don't really believe in bucket list.
Daniel Franco:What was one thing? What's one thing that you want to achieve? Um,
Sara Siami:I really, wow, did I really want to potentially do a PhD at some point? Well, I don't know. That's like a really stupid reason to want to do it. Because I don't know. I just
Daniel Franco:want to be called a doctor,
Sara Siami:I think. No, I think like, at some point, it was like having my own business, I think would be really cool. Yeah. Because I think there's such a great need for, like, helping business people understand how to get the best out of people and organizations. And I think if I can kind of do more of that. That would be I know, it doesn't maybe sound like a really big bucket list item. But to me, it's exactly what we do every day.
Daniel Franco:Yeah. Toby won't be too happy with me. So if you had access to a time machine, and you had a return trip, either forward or back, where would you go?
Sara Siami:These are really, really hard. I really don't know because I'm very much like, leave. With no regrets.
Daniel Franco:Yeah, well, you don't is it you could say visit someone. You could go and see what the future looks like. We've had someone on the show said they wanted to go back and see the dinosaurs just purely because they wanted to see him. Yeah. Okay. So yeah, it's just, it's about Woody. What's an interesting? Yeah. point in history or in the future that you would be, you'd be looking to
Sara Siami:wow. I really, I'm really, I have really have no idea. Let me think. I think actually, it would be really interesting to go forward to maybe like 50 years and see what Toby pace is doing. That will be interesting. Seeing Steve Jobs and like all the other people you've got on your wall here like my Dawn, everyone else and like topis will probably be off on that wall in 50 years as like one of the world's greatest somethings. Yeah, business people.
Daniel Franco:I'm surprised he's not already now. It's now it would be actually right because he has the AI has the potential to really change the world in any potentially already. He is Yeah, he definitely we think about the impact on PBS wives that he's having. Oh, you all are having. I mean, it must be something that you're very practically it's not just him, right? We can we can look at him in isolation. And he would be the first to say, Yeah, I couldn't do any of this without my teams. Definitely,
Sara Siami:definitely. But I think he's, like, genius level. And he like his intellect, but his emotional intelligence. Like he's absolutely unstoppable. Like, it will be very, very interesting to see. Yeah, his impact on the world another 50.
Daniel Franco:There is a question that I do. And this is not in the rapid fire. But I'm interested in this. And you said, you don't have time. So you've got enough time? How do you really how do you work with a visionary? Yeah. How do you control? Not control? How do you work to the demands that might be put on to you for someone who's so forward thinking? Yeah.
Sara Siami:He's very, very forward thinking. But at the same time, he's also developed such good capability in his, like, emotional intelligence. So he's incredibly easy to work with, I think, because we have a lot of the same strengths. Like for us, it's really easy. Not everybody, I think finding that easy, because he's like, very detail orientated and very fast. And, and that kind of thing. But, you know, I think it's the same as anyone, like he learned, you learn what makes other people tick. And then you just learn how to operate with them. The best way, it's like any kind of stakeholder management, like I learned really quickly, like how much detail he does and does not want on particular things. And, you know, he's also really, you know, good at using different people for different, I guess, stimulus, like, he will know what to come and talk to me about that. He's going to get the best out of me for that conversation for whatever he needs. And he knows when to go to other people to get that as well. So I'm lucky because it's, it's him driving.
Daniel Franco:Well, and his awareness. You guys have that? Yeah. of trust. Yeah. Makes it a lot easier. Yeah. Decisions can get made a bit. Yeah. Definitely feared what a superpower or superhero power. What would be
Sara Siami:if I could have one? Yeah, I definitely to stop time. That's without porn. Yeah. Because there is like say, I'm a time optimizer, that's one of my strengths. So I'm always late to everything. Because I'm like, I'm one of these things like my, like joy comes from like being in the kitchen and like putting the toaster on. Right? Whilst like getting the microwave going whilst boiling the kettle, like, doing everything at the same time to like, optimize every second day, which means I'm often late because I'm like, Oh, just finish this and do this while I'm doing that. And anyway, because there's so much I want to do like, as I said, like, I love learning curiosity adventure, like there might top kind of strengths and they energize me. And there's just not enough time in the day to read all the books that I want to do to like, go on all the walks to go to the gym to like, you know, explore this and explore that. There's just so much exciting stuff in the world. I just feel like there's never enough time. Yeah, yeah.
Daniel Franco:Have you got kid? No, no, no. That's another whole Yeah. If you enjoy your time. Yeah. And to finish off, what's your best dad joke? Well, Mom joke, that joke. T joke. Um,
Sara Siami:where did the fish keep their money? Where did the fish keep their money in the river bank?
Daniel Franco:It's pathetic. Absolutely. It passes the test. Brilliant. Thank you so much, Sarah, for coming on today. It has been a really great chat in the live chat and fantastic to hear about all the great things that you guys are doing over at sweat. What is the what is the future look like for you in the next two or three years is that? You know, what, actually is probably some areas that you're in. Is it? Do you planning on growing and scaling the business even further?
Sara Siami:Definitely. I think growth is one of Toby's favorite words. The executive favorite words are all my favorite words, growth, more growth, more winning more, like light content, and just more kind of world domination. Really
Daniel Franco:beautiful. And where can we find you and you're open for people to contact you?
Sara Siami:Yeah, probably LinkedIn would be the easiest. So sorry, yummy. LinkedIn.
Daniel Franco:So sorry. Yes, I am I correct. Beautiful. Thank you very much for your time today. It's been great. Thanks, guys. Take care.
Synergy IQ:Thank you once again for joining us here at creating synergy. It's been great spending this time. with you, please jump on to the synergy IQ Facebook and LinkedIn page where the discussion continues after the show. Join our mailing list so you'll know what's happening next at Synergy iq.com.au And of course, don't forget to subscribe to this podcast. And if you really enjoyed it, please share it with your friends.