Creating Synergy Podcast

#24 - Mick O'Rourke, Chair of Nuago on Kaizen, Creating Small Habits that Lead to Becoming an Effective Leader in Business and Life

December 10, 2020 SynergyIQ
Creating Synergy Podcast
#24 - Mick O'Rourke, Chair of Nuago on Kaizen, Creating Small Habits that Lead to Becoming an Effective Leader in Business and Life
Show Notes Transcript

Mick O'Rourke has worked in varying business environments ranging from start-ups to the largest firms in the world, primarily in the computer industry. His roles have included project management, marketing, sales, senior management, and small business ownership. 

Mick started as an engineer with Exxon in Alaska, then obtained his MBA and switched to marketing. He worked 15 years for Hewlett-Packard and as Vice-President of Marketing for several Silicon Valley companies. He permanently moved to Australia in 1996 where he bought a computer dealership in Adelaide and grew it from $5M to $36M in 7 years. It was subsequently sold to an ASX listed company. He then started up another IT company, Datacom SA, with 5 partners in 2006, that became the largest such firm in South Australia achieving over $50M in sales in five years. 

He now devotes his time as chairman of Nuago, an IT start-up firm serving entities in South Australia to plan and implement the latest in IT developments. 

Mike is a dual citizen of Australia and America. His education includes an MBA and a Bachelor of Science degree in Civil Engineering, both from Stanford University, Palo Alto, California. He also spent two years at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, New York. 

In this episode, Mick and Daniel discussed on Mick's methods and processes on successfully growing a business, where Mick believes a key focus should be on developing your people, living to the company values and excel in marketing & sales. Mick also talked about his love for Stephen Coveys 7 Habits of Highly effective people, and how he entwines these habits into his daily life and believes that creating small positive habits are fundamental to any success.

Where to find Mick O'Rourke 

LinkedIn: Mick O'Rourke

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Say hello to our host Daniel on LinkedIn

Synergy IQ:

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Daniel Franco:

Hi there synergisers and welcome back to another episode of The creating synergy Podcast. I am Daniel Franco, your host and today we ventured out to the offices of IT company Nuago to speak to one of the most giving most patient and humble human beings that I've ever met. Mick O' Rourke, Mick has worked in varying business environments ranging from startups to the largest firms in the world, primarily in the computer and tech industry. He's roles have included project management, marketing, sales, senior management and small business ownership. He spent two years in the US Military Academy before starting his career as an engineer with Exxon in Alaska. From here he went on to obtain his MBA and Stanford University Palo Alto, California, before he decided to switch his career into marketing. He then worked for 15 years for Hewlett- Packard, and then as Vice President of Marketing for several small companies in Silicon Valley. In 1996, he came upon an opportunity to buy a computer dealership company called Centauri systems in Adelaide, South Australia. He picked up his family of five and permanently move them to Australia. He went on to grow Centauri systems, from a $5 million to $36 million business in seven years. It was then subsequently sold to an ASX listed company. From here he started up another IT company called Datacom in South Australia with 5 partners in 2006. He went on to become one of the largest firms in South Australia, achieving over $50 million in sales over five years. He now devotes his time providing mentoring and coaching through the University of South Australia center for growth program. And he's chairman of Nuago, a very successful IT startup firm, which serves entities in South Australia, where two of his sons, Connor and Brendon are directors of the In its first four years Nuago has been recognized in both the company. CRN and video fastest growing companies multiple times. This podcast was a truly amazing learning experience. We cannot discuss many topics however, we honed in on his methods and processes of successfully growing a business where Mick believes key focus should be put on developing your people living to the company values and excelling in both marketing and sales. We talked about mixed love for Stephen Covey's Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, and how he intwines these habits into his daily life, and believes that creating small positive habits are fundamental to any success. My business partner, Michelle Holland, and I have had the pleasure of sitting down with Mick over the past few months, numerous times and learning more and more about his approach to growing a long term sustainable business. It has been one of the steepest learning curves in my career. And I'm forever indebted I absolutely cannot wait for you guys to listen to these podcast. to Mick. I know it'll be great for everyone who is thinking about starting their own business growing within a business or even just growing themselves. I hope you enjoy. So welcome back to the creating synergy podcast. My name is Daniel Franco, your host and today we have a great man by the name of Mick O'Rourke. Welcome to the show Mick.

Mick O' Rourke:

Thank you very much, Daniel. Thanks for having me.

Daniel Franco:

Mick, you are a you've been as almost like a mentor to me over the past few months, we've been doing a lot of work together. Your story is an amazing story. Are you able to just give us a bit of background about who you are what you've achieved? Your journey to Australia, your family all the above?

Mick O' Rourke:

Well, sure. I've been in Australia for 25 years. Australian citizen, you're not going to get rid of me now. But before that, of course, from my accent you can tell I'm from the States born in Colorado, some of the military officer got moved around all over the place and then i guess that is how i ended up at Westpoint which is US military academy for officers for a couple of years such a 4-year university but i decided military isn't for me and I transferred over to Stanford University out on the other coast and got a degree in engineering worked as a drilling engineer for Exxon and Alaska and other places and then decided no, I want to be a businessman then went back, got my MBA also at Stanford. And then I started what I call a marketing, high tech career. Hewlett Packard, seven or eight years great, great people, division in San Diego, where we were able to really kick huge goals and so much fun. And that was really formative for me culturally as well as in other business wise. Then I moved into Silicon Valley for six or seven years. There's a lot of movement.

Daniel Franco:

Yeah. So what in what year was that when you moved in? I'd say that was around 1990. Okay. That's on there during the boom.

Mick O' Rourke:

Yeah, the I'd say the 80s was a real boom, yeah. 90s was the lead up to the.com. It was exciting time. Everybody was looking for the big win. Yeah, I guess they are now too. But it was it was quite exciting. And a lot of companies starting a lot of turnover of staff. So I jumped into hardest Silicon Valley at one point.

Daniel Franco:

Where were you working?

Mick O' Rourke:

I was working for a number of smaller firms in Cupertino, one that did monitors and graphic cards for Apple. And I can remember there were small firms that they really didn't pan out. One was a subsidiary of a Xerox company that did large format, color printing. There are more companies in Silicon Valley than you would believe you only hear about the small percentage that emerged, the Googles and so on. Yeah. But I floated around no more than two years. And in one company that there was a startup I went to that did cartridges for LaserJet. You wouldn't think that's even a mark. And it isn't anymore. But that's how you used to get your fonts. Yeah. They weren't automatic. Yep. So it kind of dates me a bit. But yeah, there was a startup for everything then.

Daniel Franco:

So when did the transition come to Australia? What and what bought the transition onto Australia?

Mick O' Rourke:

Well, quite frankly, I was on the airplane almost every week. And I was, I had been the vice president marketing, which is a nice title and everything made good money. But I really wanted to run my own company. And I wanted to see my family at night. I didn't mind working hard. But literally, almost every week I was on the airplane. I I missed two my daughter's birthdays in a row. Yeah. It's not like just missing a soccer game. You miss a birthday. So I thought I need to become a better dad. And there's an opportunity came up in here in Adelaide, for me to buy business, small business on the parade, put the sandwich board out and sold laser jets and inkjet printers before Harvey Norman and you know, getting them online. Yeah.

Daniel Franco:

So how does that come about? How does a vice present in marketing, seek an opportunity in Adelaide to buy a business? Well, I had a friend who had worked with me at Hewlett Packard, okay, he was in Melbourne. And he said, Make, get out of that rat race. Get your kids over here. It's a great place. It's a great adventure. And I know a guy who's retiring wants to sell a business in Adelaide and we could join forces maybe connect all the cities together which we ultimately did. So, Centauri systems is that the that was Centauri systems. Yeah. Which was subsequently sold to commander which was a Telstra spin off and so that began the adventure. I saw the the gentleman who was selling the company at COMDEX in Las Vegas and annual computer show. Yep, in I think November- December'95. We came to some sort of verbal terms. I flew out in January of '96 and penned to deal effective July one of '96 and took some video because my family had never been there. And and I said yes there's American culture. There's a McDonald's and a blockbusters everything we can live. so how many you've got three kids?

Mick O' Rourke:

Yeah, two boys, and a girl. The boys are now grown up business men and... Who you are in business with I'm in yet business, Directors of Nuago. And my daughter and her husband are both veterinarians with they have their own their own vet practice up by mount Barker. Perfect. And so Australia has been the best thing that ever happened to me and my family.

Daniel Franco:

So what was it like then when you came over you bought into this business? I believe you built this business from 5 million to 36 million. Yeah, yeah, that's about right. It had been around for about eight years, and was kind of stuck at the 5 million point and doing peripherals, and was Hewlett Packard, only dealer. And Hp specifically said they wanted the business to move upstream, networks. Yep. Things that are more sophisticated bigger servers than just peripherals. Yeah. And so that's what we proceeded to do. I'd like to say I knew exactly what I was gonna do but I didn't. I just worked really hard and figured one thing out at a time started to apply my things. I guess I knew, but I didn't know I knew. And they started to work. Do you get more time with your family? Did you get your wish?

Mick O' Rourke:

Yeah, I got to come home every night. I was working. We're open even Saturdays for a while[inaudible], I shut down because the retail end of things was not where I wanted to go. But even with working six days a week, I came home at least every night. But I realized there was still a thing that drawing my daughter did in art school early on, of me, was me laying on the couch with a laptop on my lap. So I thought, wow, that's her memory of me. But at least I was home.

Daniel Franco:

Yeah, this is on your couch. So yes, that was that was one of the best things that happened I started become a much better father, I think and I had been. So what is the mission accomplished there? I think was asked the kids.. what is a good father look like to you then when you say?

Mick O' Rourke:

Well, I started out, probably more money oriented and thinking my kids need to go to a, you know, the best schools and have a nice big house and whatever they need. I didn't come from those kind of background. Yeah, mine was more humble. And so I didn't spend as much time thinking about well, how about spending more time with them being around to be the role model that you should be, and that sort of thing, things I really believe in now. And I was just caught up in the rat race. So being there for them and modeling good behaviors. And, in fact, and that's similar to business, isn't it? If you're always gone, and you're not there, to help establish the values and model good behaviors, while you might not be able to expect that your employees will adapt those behaviors and values.

Daniel Franco:

Any you build the awareness to understand that if you're building a business, and you've got so many staff, let's say you got 20 30 40, staff, whatever it is in your team, that they almost become the family, you know, your 30 40 mortgages that you've got to look after. And you know, make sure that there's enough work in the systems and it's sustainable enough to grow, then you've got a family of three children and you and your wife, where do you draw the line on? What's more important, you know, the family is going to be unconditional, they're going to love you. Do you put more time into the business knowing that you're right, like where do you draw the line in that space?

Mick O' Rourke:

Well, I'm not sure I do draw the line. Obviously, you know, primal instincts, your kids and your wife and your immediate family is is always a first priority. But I'd like to think there's enough of me enough time to treat everybody well, to radiate out the same values wherever I go. So I don't I don't try and be one person at work and another one at home. On another one when I go to the shop. Yeah, it makes it easy for me because I try and be the same person everywhere.

Daniel Franco:

When you What about when you're splitting time? What do you put family as a priority first, so you just try to manage it as best as you can.

Mick O' Rourke:

Well, you know, I don't believe in work life balance. First of all, people look at me like are you some freak? Oh, my work is part of my life. Yeah. I try and again, look at all the hours I'm awake. And how do I function and the the line has always been blurred for me, between my work and my home life. But I don't look at my life at my work is a bad thing in my life is a good thing. Or my it's true. My life outside. I really just don't even think that way. And anyone who tells me that I say maybe you should consider where you're working. Yeah, you spend that much time of your life in the place. If you can't find a way to enjoy it. That's kind of sad. And that's coming from person who's had some crappy job. Yeah. So I just think you should, if you're going to spend that much time in a place, you should try and find one that fits your values and what you want to do and excites you. And I tell that to people work for me. Yeah, you know, if we can't keep you interested, which is my goal is to keep you interested in learning, then you should go somewhere else. It's our job to try and keep you here.

Daniel Franco:

Absolutely. That's a great attitude. So you've built three successful businesses, since coming to Australia with Centauri systems, then you and you sold that to obviously the Telstra affiliate company, then you bought in Datacom to Australia? Yeah, well, the story is, we also bought a Centauri Perth in, at the time, so I still fly out to Perth all the time, because we wanted all the major cities covered. So I had Perth and Adelaide, but I actually spent most of my time in Adelaide. But then I thought, okay, I've made enough money, I don't have to work again. And as if that would satisfy me, and I realized that, that probably isn't gonna, gonna cut it, I started knocking things off the bucket list and doing all the projects at the house. And like a lot of folks are in business, you, when you've run at a high pace, you find that it's hard to gear down. And fortunately for me, some of my ex employees who are working at Commander, which was the company I sold Centauri to, they came in and said, Nick, we're making more money, but we don't like it here. And why don't you start another business and we want to come work for you, which is really flattering. And yeah actually, that made me feel good, in one sense, and that they must have liked working with me. But in the other. On the other hand, I thought, I've never been good at doing the same thing twice, exactly the same way. So I said, Why don't I help you start a business. And I don't know what my involvement will be. And so this happened with five other guys, five my ex employees. I said, we don't want, nobody's gonna buy their network from Mick computer company. So we probably need to partner up with somebody who already has a name and a website and can teach us some things. I didn't know who that would be. But I started calling around and I, I call the CEO of Datacom, which is a started in New Zealand, the biggest computer IT from there, they had some businesses on the Australian East Coast, but nothing in Adelaide, I called him out and said, I got a great crew here, oh, we can come up with our own startup money, do everything, we'll figure out how you can buy it in the future. What do you think, and after he pulled himself off the floor laughing at me, like, that's not quite how we do business. We're gonna own some of this from the start. And then we do definitely want to own all of it later. But they really left us alone. And besides putting in some seed capital, we're able to build a business with their name and their website. And really the the, I don't want to take credit for that it was the guys that had worked for me, I got to call myself chairman and you know, Walton, probably more at first than later, and I was more operational first. But all of the really the heavy lifting was done by guys who had worked for me before, and they'd never started a company and, and they did a tremendous job. It was your guidance, though, that played them. integral part in that. I'd like to think that was my value add, and I did my share as a shareholder. There wasn't a lot of new concepts for them, because a lot of them had been through it at Centauri Commander. So we extended and built on those guys built on the things that I had done is when I was the single owner of Centauri, they then took that and took it to a new level, yes, with my guidance, but real value added on their part. And as I said, a lot of heavy lifting, they were able to take that business from zero to 50 million in five years. And the credit really goes to Darren Williams and the other guys he was the managing director, and I'm proud on their behalf. But I think it's inappropriate for me to take credit there. We take some percentage

Mick O' Rourke:

All right, I'll take, I'll take my percent ownership. But still I'm

Daniel Franco:

Why do you Why do you think that they came to you and said, Mick we want you to lead us into the next venture?

Mick O' Rourke:

It's scary starting a business if you haven't done it before. My daughter when she started that practice, same thing. I knew how what how good of that she really was and her husband. They're perfect for this. But when you haven't started a business what you don't know that is scary and you think you're gonna fail and lose all your money and and never recover. And Adelaide is not like Silicon Valley where a failure is put on your chest is a badge here a failure is your doom to the boondocks and looked at as a loser? Yeah. So it was, I think more scary for them. And for my daughter and her husband when they started their business. So they came to me and I, I provided an umbilical cord for safety for wisdom, gray hair, all that stuff. But the capability was there. And I just helped guide them. Yeah. And now any of them could start the business on their own, I believe.

Daniel Franco:

Well, they all have haven't they. So you've sold out of datacom? Yeah. Sold your share back to shipped back to Datacom.

Mick O' Rourke:

Yeah, and that was part of the shareholder agreement. Yeah, they had options to buy based on a formula and they exercised them and, and I'd like to think, you know, all the guys did well financially. And I did well, and but more importantly, they're proud of having built a business which, by extension, another division of datacom is datacom Connect, which does support answered by an Australian rather than someone from overseas. And so a lot of the big organizations in Australia use datacom Connect, you may not even know it, when you call up, you know, the ATO or somebody, there's a datacom person, and I think they have put in 16-1800 jobs in South Australia, the latest of which we're about 609[inaudible audio] in the shopping center. So I feel like, again, the pride is all the founders did have maybe having brought a lot more jobs and to this economy. And that's a good feeling for me right now. And I know it is, again, for the guys who did the bulk of the work that the other datacom operation.

Daniel Franco:

So you have now fees later you sold your shares fees later been approached by your sons, and a couple of other guys who have come over from datacom.

Mick O' Rourke:

Yeah, it was. It started with my eldest son, Brendan. And he said, Dad, I want to start a business as a[inaudible audio]. Yeah, I'll help you out. It had that same feeling of the Datacom. Exactly. Chairman, that means after the operation, I come in when I want. So I said, Yeah, I'm happy to help you out. And he already had a lot of equity. In the IT business. Anyway, he had worked at Centauri, he had worked at Datacom. He had worked in multiple jobs and went over to the states and got experience. So he was already bringing a lot to the party.

Daniel Franco:

when you say he?

Mick O' Rourke:

my son, Brendan, the original founder, and then the other three, who he gathered up to start the company, my other son Connor, director of sales. And then Craig, our Director of professional services and our Director of managed services., Ben Schofield, they were Datacom, Connor and Ben and Craig. And it really hurt in in many instances, to pull that talent out of Datacom, I want to be honest with you. But when guys want to try something in life, I actually admire that, you know, they want to have a go and they were ready to do it. And they were ready to put up their houses and work really hard and take a much lower salary and, and really live through a scary period, which they did. I admire that and steps aside the fact that two more of my sons was even better. Yeah. But we've never run it as a family business. We've run it as a venture with those four guys starting it and me helping out and not just similar to Datacom. Except we, I like to think from my perspective, this is 3.0, you know.

Daniel Franco:

yeah. And this time, all the shareholders work here. I've have a small percentage, yeah, they have the bulk of the vote. And so they have to live with the consequences of their decisions financially. When customers have a problem, they feel it not only from a professional standpoint, but they feel it from a financial standpoint. And that's the way it should be. So there's a there's a patent emerging here though me right. So you come to Australia, startups Centauri, well you buy it, its Centauri, you sell, you bring Datacom over from New Zealand, you build it from you and the team, I should say always you and the team build it from five to 50 million, or however, you know, up to 50 million in five years, I should say. Now we're in Nuago, the guys have come to you, Mick, we want you to be part of this, we want you to help us lead and guide the team and build the structures and processes in the background. And now, Nuago understand has been recognized in the video fast growth company for 2020. So there's a formula here. That is, is quite, you've built something and you've built a process, which I believe is good is great. It's, it's working. It's doing wonders in, especially in Adelaide in Australia. What do you believe? Is the fundamentals of building a successful business? What are the some of the formulas that you follow?

Mick O' Rourke:

Well, I think, and people don't like to hear this, you really need to understand the market you're entering. [inaudible audio] Well, of course you do. But the number of companies that have been started over dinner or in pubs without the requisite, well, does the community need another one of these companies? What is our difference? There is somebody out there already doing successfully, what we say we're going to do, the example I use a lot is a restaurant, you can be a great cook of Brazilian food. And if there's already a big Brazilian restaurant, on the block, and they're doing a great job, you can have a hard time being successful, you need to pick your segment, you need to have an approach that's different. And you might say, Well, how do you do that in IT? You know, there seems like there are so many of those companies. And there are, that's why you need to really carefully think about who are you targeting? And what is your message. And even with my daughter's vet practice, I can tell you is the same thing, you're going to start a vet practice will where where are the successful that practices in that area? How are you going to be any different. And so she, she did her homework on, she started within six months of the Nuago folks, and they are absolutely booming up near Mount Barker. And I'm proud to say that you get into the chat rooms up there and say, What is a great vet in Adelaide Hills? More than 50% of the response that sometimes 80 will be from Fernand vet my daughter's business, but she went around the same approach he looked at where are the existing practices? What? How big are they? Do they specialize in big or small animals? How many houses are there? What's the average pet? It's boring stuff, doing your homework on business. It's never the exciting stuff of what we call the three C's of marketing, which is talking to customers and doing your competitive analysis. But that's where what's the third thing is your company strengths. And

Daniel Franco:

what's the third thing? what are you good at the three C's. So it's, it's a customers, competition and company strengths. And the fourth element, of course you look at is what is the size of the overall market you're addressing, because you can have a great idea. But if there aren't enough people who want to eat Brazilian food in Adelaide, then you can be the best Brazilian cook on the planet. And you won't be successful, the size of the addressable market. And this three C's analysis, it's one thing I push and push and push. What's the unmet need in this thing? How can we position ourselves? How can we get a win, because if there isn't an opportunity there, then you won't be successful. Another thing that startups often fail on is having enough money, enough cash, they may not think things through. And then the third is bringing talent into the company, the the founder that thinks that the company is going to be successful, because they're so smart, or they're really good. And doesn't believe that it's attracting and retaining the best people you can, that person's probably going to fail. So I always look to find the best people and go pay what I need to pay for them and then hang on to them. Then the in the end, they make or break a business for you. How do you go about finding the right people?

Mick O' Rourke:

Well, it when you're in IT, you get to know have a good network to begin with. Yeah, and in fact, what I recommend to people again, whether it's a Vet practice an IT business or restaurant or whatever, always be cultivating your network. And have in mind the next one or two people you want to bring to your company, be constantly recruiting just like you're constantly selling in a good way. You should be constantly recruiting and bringing talent in and going on. I'm going to find a place for that person in my company as soon as we can afford to bring them in. And that runs out but we have our employees usually In a company I've been at, we reward them for bringing people into the company that stay longer than probationary period. And usually they're, they're proud and they won't bring in somebody who isn't going to hold up the standard. So this kind of mafia made man approach to, to hiring is another one I really like. Some of the best people I've ever had were recommended by their employees. Yeah. In fact, if you look at Nuago, I take good, at least half of them are references from other employees. People want to work with people that they admire and can learn from it and ensure the cultural values. And then it has to keep going on you work with universities, if you can. You try and find good search firms and lots of good and bad stories there. If you're going to use seek and everybody does it at some point, you got to really look at what you say on seek and have a way to filter out the all the people that seem to apply that didn't seem to read with their qualifications. Yeah, they when they sent the resumes in.

Daniel Franco:

I know you're a big advocate on bringing the right people in. And we've had many, many conversations about this. When you bring someone into the business. You are Nuago has a process of onboarding. Can you elaborate on it? It's brilliant.

Mick O' Rourke:

Well, we start with, for example, our values from the interview process, we make sure that we interview not only for functional competence, whether it's an engineer salesperson, what have you, but also for values. Because we actually evaluate on a matrix and the Center for Business Growth teaches this of performance, technical performance and value performance, if you will. So we we start hiring on those two axis, start interviewing and hiring them. And when we onboard, we onboard with an emphasis on hey, here's our offer letter included a page of values and a page of performance requirements. We remind them on the first day, this is what we're going to talk to you about in both cases, both axis. But then we proceed to try and make sure their experience is good. Actually, even before they come on during that notice period, we make sure we call them up. How you doing, because that's the time they might have some various remorse, they're getting counteroffers. They're maybe feeling a little bit anxious. So the onboarding starts before they even onboard on board. Yeah, we invite them to two functions, we treat them as if they've been hired from the minute they say yes, yeah. So we think that's important. And then when they come in, we give them a buddy, if you will, person who's doing a similar job. You can ask them anything. They also meet with the various departments, we give them functional training, we have a calendar to bring them up to speed as quickly as possible. And we have a pretty significant document we give them that tells them virtually everything you'll be getting, you'll be fitted for the shirt. So this is where you park, here's where the cafes are, try and make them feel as comfortable as possible, as soon as possible. So that they'll feel good and do good work. And I have to admit Nuago'sattrition rate is very low, very, very low for an IT company. And I think it's a tribute to the great job that guys have done at bringing in good talent and hang on to it, because I know they're getting hit hard by the headhunters all the time.

Daniel Franco:

So we working in the culture and leadership space values, something that we absolutely believe to be powerful, but it's often something that you see, thrown up on a wall and expected that people follow those values. How do you hold people accountable to those values? Or what? Why is it so important for you and attainment? nuada?

Mick O' Rourke:

Well, the reason it's important is if you don't have values, you spend a lot of time asking yourself, how do we behave in this situation, and you might do some bad things and you won't have anything to role model for your people. values are the fundamental fabric of the company. It's how you roll if you will in today's lingo.

Daniel Franco:

So is it too nice?

Mick O' Rourke:

For me, you got to remember right in the Jurassic era, era, so values we are not something you just stick in the lobby after the result of a consultant coming in and spending a weekend with you. Yeah. So great. We interview for them. We as I said, we put a values page in the offer.

Daniel Franco:

So what does interview for them mean? What do you mean by that

Mick O' Rourke:

That means we ask him questions that will tease out their values,

Daniel Franco:

their values. Yeah. What's a typical question that you would ask?

Mick O' Rourke:

Well, I'm not involved in the day to day interviewing

Daniel Franco:

What was the stuff just off the top of my head.

Mick O' Rourke:

But if it were me, I didn't I put them in a situation of that might bring out their willingness to go the extra mile. If you ever had a situation where the result was really hard to achieve, but you got there, just see how they are in terms of quality. And that might bring out customer service, it might bring out teamwork. Yeah. And those are, you know, there are values. Some of them are what we call hygiene values. Nobody wants to hire somebody who's not a team player, isn't honest, and some of these others, and then you have your go the extra mile values. And we've talked about those Synergy IQ has some great ones. And so you try and figure out both your hygiene values, and your the ones that make you distinctive as a company as an organization. So you have to ask questions that tease those out. And people look out for those questions. So they, you know, you somehow have to interview them long enough, so they get tired enough in the true person comes. Yeah. And so it's a little bit of an art as well as a science. And that's another reason why we like somebody who knows somebody who's worked with them. Yeah, it's a sales process, or an interview process can be difficult to really nail down the person. But do you say, Yeah, I worked with him for a year, or her? Oh, this is what they're like? Well, that's, that's a great reference, isn't it? So we again prefer to have people who've worked with other people that are in our organization. And, again, you cannot win your high growth. You run out of those folks. But that's our, that's our preference.

Daniel Franco:

So I know you're really big on the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. Stephen Covey. In fact, the room next door is the Stephen Covey room. What How does the values align with the Seven Habits program that you run for your team? All right, so the the seven habits, I can say we, we put nine hours of training for every employee over six weeks on the Seven Habits as part of the onboarding, part of our onboarding process. So we take it seriously, we try and walk the walk, I do all that training myself, because I've done it so much, and it helps free the other guys to do the regular work of your business. But I enjoy it. I learned every job working on the quadrant two, it really

Mick O' Rourke:

Yeah. Well, for quadrant two, of course, is things that are important but not urgent

Daniel Franco:

and not urgent in the case of onboarding. Yeah. And well, taking the Seven Habits is any training you do any learning you do any planning you do. You You don't wake up and say, Oh, I got to do some more planning today, you say, Oh, my inbox is full on all these messages I got to respond to and so if your original question was, how do those seven habits relate to the values of this company, and there is definitely a connection. They don't map directly, but we believe here in listening and understanding the other person, whether it's another employee or supplier, or very importantly, our customer understanding what what are you trying to do? Not can I sell you a bunch of kit? So, and I think you've seen some of our sales training, we train our salespeople to in the 60 30 10 rule. First 60% of any meeting, is listening to what the customer needs. Rather than whipping out the PowerPoint and saying, look how great my company Yeah, don't you want to buy my stuff? And we really enforce that. Well, I think you use you know, you got two ears and one mouth. Yes. And that really ties into habit five, for example, of Covey's stuff, which is understand before you can be understood, really try and figure out what's going on with the other person that's in every interaction. And again, because it's holistic training, it works at home. It works out what the book is highly effective people. It doesn't mean highly effective in business. It is highly effective people. And he has a book that's seven habits for families. He does. Yeah, it's, I'm a believer in the concept. And it helped me a lot. So I've tried helping, I try helping other people. We don't have any strict requirement. We don't make them take a test on the seven habits. As covey says you can't open the gate of change for someone else, you have to open it yourself. And so we expose them to the materials, we, they interact, we put them through exercises, but in the end, they take what they want to take. And at least at the very least, we have a common language that we talk about. And I think we build a common respect as a result. So what is your, what do you believe is the most important habit out of those seven? Is there one? Or do you believe they all tie in to each other? I have two favorites habit two, which is what I call a personal leadership habit, which is begin with the end in mind. Is, is about. And that's true for all things you. You wouldn't build a house without first designing it. But we don't do that with our lives. And so we go through an exercise that has people examine, what are the important roles? And what do you value and it's unique for everyone to try and give them a personal compass, that they can get up every day, just like values are for a company values for a person? Don't they take away that necessity to every situation? How should I be here? How should I behave? You, when you get in touch with what's important to you, and who's important to you, these things become automatic, and you begin to feel a lot better about yourself. Because you're providing some guidance in your life. So that's my first favorite one. Yep. The second is habit five, which is listening, understand before you can be understood, listening is not taught in schools like reading and writing, and even some speaking, but very rarely does anybody get listening training? The older we get, the more successful we get, the more likely we are to not listen. And the busier we get, you know, in this world of multitasking, which we all really suck at. You wonder whether you're getting through to anyone, sometimes they're looking at you, but are they really hearing what you have to say? No, they're looking at their phone, their, you know, remembering that meeting they have coming up. They're trying to multitask which human beings are not built to do. Yeah, so was this Simon Garfunkel [inaudibe audio] song? That was my era was saying, well, there's one line in this song that absolutely stuck sticks with me. And so I love this song. It's the sound of silence by Simon Garfunkel. And it's, there's a line in it saying there are people listening without hearing. Yeah, right. And it's so true in today's society that they might, that they're listening to what they're saying, but they're actually not understanding what you're what you're on about.

Mick O' Rourke:

Yeah. And what does that do when somebody is excited or sad, or has an issue and they come up to you, and they let it out? And they think you're glancing at your screen, or you're not making eye contact? or playing with your pencil or whatever it is you're doing? It sends them a message. They're not important to you. Yeah. And that's not how you feel. But remember, you're multitasking. You're making it happen. Yeah, you're all about it. Yeah,

Daniel Franco:

I had a meeting. I had a meeting about a week or two ago with a gentleman who was looking at his laptop while during the meeting and running emails, and he just, yeah, instantly thing is, am I am I worth your time right now?

Mick O' Rourke:

Yeah, it's you. The damage you're doing, you know, he is in there, he talks about the personal bank account you have with everybody. And you're going into big deficit mode. One another now, analogy. Is to that is is what happens at home when you pick up the remote control. And your partner starts to talk to you about something important in their day, and you're kind of knackered and you watch a cricket, and you're just staring at the screen and remote control. What message are you sending about how important your own partner is? Yeah. Yeah, you reckon? I yeah. So because you just want to go home and

Daniel Franco:

yeah, you brain's fried, and you need almost,

Mick O' Rourke:

but you do damage when, when you don't acknowledge somebody else's issues, particularly their emotions. It's just like saying, you don't matter to me. And in our society, that sends a huge message. We don't have a lot of people running around hungry or without families or people to love but there's a lot of people trying to feel like their life means something. And when they finally give up on that, and they don't, some of them do self harm, that's awful. And by not acknowledging their issues and them as a person, you're actually damaging that person. Hmm. So there's a downside and ugly side did not listen

Daniel Franco:

There is there is, but when does it become? When does your needs become first or should be put first, like he talked about coming home. And this is goes back to being a good father, being a good husband being good wife and good partner. When you come home and you've had a long day, and you've been thrown a pandemic, in your lap, right, the last thing you want to do is come and talk about someone else's problems. So you sit down and you put the TV on or you sit, you go in another room and just pick up a book or whatever it might be. Get on the mobile phone, when does that become more important than listening to someone else's issues?

Mick O' Rourke:

Well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna answer out of both sides of my mouth, now, you have to take care of yourself first, or you're no good for anyone else. And that's the concept of the first three habits is learning how to, to be independent, as opposed to dependent where everything that happens to you, then creates how you will function, or you become dependent. So the first three habits are to build your independence. Well, let's face it, your your physical being and a mental being that only has so much capacity. And sometimes you're no good for somebody else. That's when it comes down to how do you handle that not dealing with that without damaging? Yeah, the relationship? You can say, Look, I'll, I'll take some time now, but I'm not very good right now, because I'm knackered, but I'd love to talk to you about this at eight tomorrow morning or three this afternoon. Because it's important to me, and you're important to me. Now that maintains the relationship without letting them know, look, I'm either I've got an urgent matter that I'm on right now, or my brain is fried, and I'm no good for you. And so we talked about preserving the relationship and having consideration, because you're not always going to be great for everyone, you know, but if you spend a little time explaining that rather than, you know, I can't be bothered right now. The same message can have two different results.

Daniel Franco:

Yeah, absolutely. Good. I like that one. Take that away.

Mick O' Rourke:

Yeah, it takes a lot practice and i have failed in that a lot.

Daniel Franco:

Yeah, it's, you're right. And you I often think, Oh my god, I just don't have the capacity to give you anything. You know what I come home and speak with my wife, I don't have that I'm, I'm drained. My wife loves to talk. And she's a very extroverted person and loves to build conversation and grow. And that's what I love about it. But there are some days where I'm not in that space, so yeah, i does become a manage a opportunity to manage th relationship. So I will tak that on

Mick O' Rourke:

I got a, I got some advice, if you'll take that.

Daniel Franco:

I will

Mick O' Rourke:

Your most important person probably in your life is your partner. And it's often the one we tend to, they take all of the I'll call it abuse, if you will, of, of when we're tired, when we can't take on any more when we've had a bad interaction, but they shouldn't, because they are the one that probably cares about us. And yeah, you know, when we get hurt, so maybe you just say, you know, this is a quadrant two is your my relationship with my wife. That is, if I don't look after it, it's it's important, but not urgent, and it will lead me to big problems. Just schedule a lunch, schedule a day off or do something special on the weekend, actually schedule some time when you know, you're good. So you can build that account back up. Yeah. And I'm guilty of this. I can tell you with both my wife and my children, yeah. earlier in life, and I don't recommend it. Letting them take, you know, pick up the slack for you. Because you don't have anything left when you get home.

Daniel Franco:

Yeah, there. Probably someone listening right now saying you have to schedule your family in But anyway, Yes, you do. We want Yeah. That's it and

Mick O' Rourke:

don't override it. It's like scheduling in a workout. You need to look after your relationships, you need to look after your body. It's like scheduling a doctor's appointment. It's like scheduling a review of your portfolio. All of those are important, but you just don't wake up and go I gotta do this. Now. That's not generally what drives us. What drives us is our Outlook calendar. The messages we're getting on the phone, and all the other urgent stuff.

Daniel Franco:

Yeah, it's big. You're big on habits and creating small habits. Atomic habits. I know you've read that book and you love that book. Can you tell us a little bit more about your belief in creating great sustainable habits?

Mick O' Rourke:

Yeah. And so You're a cricket player, you can relate to this, you. It's sometimes boring to watch a guy score 100 and a five day test ones and twos and oh my gosh, but pretty soon they have a great score and everybody's applauding. But I think a lot of success in particularly in small business, and certainly personally comes in tiny increments. And so this book, atomic habits relatively clear that you and I have talked about by James clear, he, he reinforces that once you read a go, yes. And I've seen it in business. Lots of little things. I, I tell people, if you could improve one thing in your business every week, do you have any idea how good you'd be in three years. But we're looking for the moonshot. Generally, the big one, it's like the one the get rich quick scheme, hey, or even get great good. But we're sitting here in the Deming room, that guy who brought total quality control to the Japanese Kaizen, constant improvement. And it allowed the Japanese on the biggest example is Toyota was a nothing, you know, crap car in the 60s 50s and 60s, to take Detroit and the big three apart, they became number one in the world through slow, small, incremental change. And in the book, atomic habits, the example he uses of the British cycling team that hadn't done anything for 100 years, and they kind of stunk the place up. And all of a sudden, they were winning all of the medals in the Olympics, and they won the Tour de France, five out of six years. And it was they attributed to lots and lots of small things like rubbing alcohol on the tires and taking your pillow on the road with you. Yeah, these are things Oh, really, there everybody's looking for? What's the one thing that you did that made you a great bike rider, then? And in business, you see people glaze over, they say, oh, what do I do? And we'll sit down, and let's talk about Quality and Innovation and everything you do? Okay,

Daniel Franco:

well, it's no different to the question that I asked earlier. What's the some of the fundamentals it's that it's almost the question is what is the one thing but so far, in this conversation, we've discussed hundreds of different little things that we could be doing? It's never the one it's never the one thing

Mick O' Rourke:

I'm sorry to tell everybody. So you know, that's when they'll tune me off.

Daniel Franco:

Now, you have a really strong emphasis on on sleep, and health within in as part of creating a successful and sustainable business I leading a successful life. Can you touch on that?

Mick O' Rourke:

Well, you know, again, growing up in Silicon Valley, your belief is you're going to work weekends, you're going to work 12 hour a day as normal, if you really care about the business, otherwise, you don't care. And there is tons of research. Now, that says, some of it even says you're only creative for three hours a day or some ridiculous thing. And only then if you've had a good amount of sleep, and you have a clear headspace. So you can imagine when you're working people 10 or 12 hours a day, as they do in Silicon Valley, they did I don't know what they're currently doing now. I saw a lot of broken families, I saw a lot of people who couldn't come up with good ideas who were burnout. Because they couldn't handle that most human beings can't. If you read the actual research, you realize that less than eight hours for 98% of the population, there's 2% that have these chromosomes. They only need four hours. Everybody says there's 2%, but they're not. If you get an average asleep, you function better not only physically, but mentally, your ideas are good. You are, you're able to come up with lots of those small improvements. You're able to have good relationships with people, all the things that in the end make you successful. But if you're coming, you're tired, and you're dragon you're behind into. Yeah, you're there. You might be there for 12 hours, but you're desperate. Yeah, you know if so I'm a big believer in sleep. And I'm a big believer in keeping yourself physically healthy. You if you've ever had the flu, you realize the only thing you think about when you have the flu, besides Am I gonna live is you know, give me some fluids out I stopped this headache and I can't wait until I get better. Am I gonna die? And I, you know, in this terrible time of COVID you know, if you got that awful thing, that's got to be all you can do. Well, that's the extreme, but a lot of people run around sleep deprived, they run around not feeling very good physically. And so what goes on and upstairs and what comes out of their mouth and what they create. reflects that. Yeah. I'd rather have somebody work less be really fit and, and sharp than just put put a bunch of time in and they're not really making a difference.

Daniel Franco:

We've talked about, you know, bringing on some really great people the importance of values. I know that really strong emphasis that you place is marketing and selling. Can you give us a quick breakdown and on the differences of marketing and selling?

Mick O' Rourke:

Yeah, so marketing is a word. It's a catch all phrase these days, that covers selling digital marketing, and a whole range of things. You ask any two people what marketing is? And the answer will be different marketing, because I spent 15 years as a marketing person is distinct function from sales. It's blurred for online sales, online sales and marketing, I can see where people might interchange that a bit. But we're particularly where you have salespeople involved. Selling is a delivery mechanism that counts on great marketing. If you hire a salesperson, and you haven't fulfilled your marketing minimum, which is, this is what our target customer looks at, looks like. These are the differences that we sell that make a sale, then that salesperson will not be successful, to ask them to figure that out, is to ruin a perfectly good salesperson who just wants to go and find those folks and get in front of them. So marketing and selling are two different things. The sales is really a tactical delivery system, or marketing is multifaceted. It starts I know, when I went to business school, I take a whole course on market research. You all put people to sleep. Think about it, but it starts with it starts with knowledge and understanding. As I said before the three C's and the market, it then moves to strategy. Okay, given that, how we're going to position ourselves to win. It then moves into what does our product or service need to look like? How are we going to distribute it on the internet by sales rep telesales, it moves on to what's our pricing strategy. Where we're going to advertise, marketing is a huge range that goes from market research to strategy to tactical marketing, which is multifaceted and selling is selling.

Daniel Franco:

I like I like your army, Military analogy. Can

Mick O' Rourke:

Yeah, so one of the things I do at the Center you? for Business Growth is, and I sometimes [inaudible audio] fo this, I'm not advocating war b doing this, but it's people ca relate to and I put this Yes And the picture on the left han side as some people in th signals core analyzin information they've got an that's like market research. An that's where it starts for battle plan. Then there's th generals tent where the strateg is created and wars are won o lost in the generals tent. An there's then the Air Force i the military, or the artiller there supporting the groun troops. That's just like you advertising and your digita marketing. And finally, of thos people out there pointing weapon at this enemy that ha been identified. It is ver clear what they need to do These are brave people sellin is hard. But all that work need to be done ahead of time o those people die. Yeah. And s I'm not advocating war, no those

Daniel Franco:

It's a great analogy.

Mick O' Rourke:

Those that understand the military in particular go I get it now, all the stuff on the left hand side of your slide is really marketing's function. Don't ask those guys out there in the trenches to do that. They're just there to go out there and find those folks you described and bring them home

Daniel Franco:

yeah, so there's a common saying that sales is king right? Is that Is that wrong? Does that say shouldn't it be marketing is king

Mick O' Rourke:

Yeah, well look I'm not I don't know where sales is king comes from but sales will not be king, if those sales people don't know where to go. Yeah, that's what the beast looks like what to say. I've been to enough companies where they say we have a real sales problem those last few sales people are real losers, we got rid of them. And then I asked them what did you ask them to do? Oh, I had him in here doing brochures and project management working on the CRM and and they they weren't out bringing in customers and what salespeople sell. Yeah, in the in the simplest, simplest simplest breakdown of this thing. Someone else needs to describe the type of company or customer and what to tell them And that's a marketing function. And salespeople need to find them, forecast their sales and sell the differences. People just trying to overcomplicate the sales function, or they try to get what I call a twofer. I'll hire person, I'll get marketing and sales out of them. They're often the those people are very different. Yeah, good marketing, people often don't want to pick up the phone. And salespeople sometimes most of the time don't want to be in the office, you can ruin a good marketing person by trying to make them a salesperson and ruin a good salesperson by trying to make them a marketing person. So don't go for the twofer.

Daniel Franco:

Yeah. You have mentioned to me a few times that it's the absolute most fundamental part of business, is the sales and marketing piece. For anyone that's struggling through this time of COVID, or is that where you would point them in the right direction? Is that where you would say, get your sales and marketing? Correct or

Mick O' Rourke:

I would always say that, but you can actually pick up a lot of market share in a downturn. I don't ever wish for a recession or something horrible, like COVID. But when things are good, even lousy companies stay in business. And there's hard enough to service, everyone. So the standard isn't very good. But if you are good at what you do, if you're good at promoting what you do, when times are hard, you're going to win your competition probably has their head down. They don't know how to sell, the customer is very choosy about who they'll buy. And they actually good times to increase your market share. So you should always, in my opinion, if you want to control your destiny, get out there and get customers. I hear people brag about we don't do any selling. That's all we're all referenced sale word of mouth. Well, good luck with good

Daniel Franco:

luck. Yeah. Do you think though, now, salespeople are using the excuse? Well, it's a pandemic, everyone's got their own problems at the moment. Last thing they want to do is hear a salesperson knocking on their door. Is that just an excuse?

Mick O' Rourke:

It's an excuse. It's just like they do every year. nobody buys in December. Nobody because it's short month on Christmas. And they don't buy in January because they're on holiday. And in February, they just coming back and getting set. And oh, by the way, is don't try and sell them on school holidays. Or Fridays because they're getting ready or Monday because there's an excuse for not ever selling Yeah. What we've always told our sales force is we're open for business 12 months a year, and you're working 12 months a year. The reality is, you can go down the freeway in January and yeah, it isn't as full. But there's least half full and most of those people's calendars probably are not very full. Why don't you go out there and be the one who calls on it. Yeah. Makes it and so for us, it's we were able to turn December January into the biggest two months of the year by getting countercyclical going to schools, which do the bulk of their buying when the students are on holiday. So rather than lose two out of 12 months, we turn them into great months so that we don't have to wear all the pain of loss. Yeah, for two months and have to make it up later. For some retailers who only make money, four or five weeks out of 52, Yes, Miss and so on.

Daniel Franco:

I always think about the ice cream shops down in Glenelg. And think, surely, they're not making anything during winter,

Mick O' Rourke:

you wouldn't think so. And so it's a challenge for businesses they have that you find something that's counter cyclical, yeah, that can help smooth that out.

Daniel Franco:

You do work at the center of business growth that you need say, what are some common pitfalls or red flags that you see in startups, businesses, when they first come to speak with you?

Mick O' Rourke:

Well, most of the businesses we get are not startups, they're actually companies that are around 10, sometimes 20 years, okay. And they've gone on a journey that's up and down and up and down, and they're frustrated. But they're, you know, they're competent, caring people who, who want their businesses to go, but they might have not have had any training, it might have been a family business. And they might have escaped some big company and just started open up shop, and they really haven't any structure to where they're going. Some of the things we've, we've covered here. We immediately look at the personnel, if you got the right people for what you're trying to do. We also look at the things I mentioned about positioning, but do you understand where you sit in the market? What's your message? What makes you different? What makes your tribe of customers want to buy from you? Is there anything at all if you ever even thought about that The four P's of marketing, as I said before promotion, place, price, and product. They all, are they all consistent with that message, we cover strategy. We also get finance, a lot of companies fail because they do not properly funded, we look at innovation as you asked before, because if you're not constantly improving, you're probably falling behind. So we cover all those things, it's hard to be a Top Tier Business and grow. It really is business is hard. But if you follow that half a dozen to 10 or 12 things, and you do state of the art work there, which will take you some time, but not as much as you think, mostly is just knowing what you're trying to do. Then you're going to be successful, well written plans, for example, we ask people raise your hand if you have a written plan that you follow in review, on a regular basis, and we get very few hands. If you don't have a plan for your business detail for one year, directional conceptual for three to five. Well,

Daniel Franco:

so what is the plan like that look like? What's the 12 month plan? In an image in a short form? What does that look like?

Mick O' Rourke:

Well, there's one page plans that they might use mouse type, and you know, yeah, a three paper what I've seen, even, it's not important that they're long, it's important to have the right elements in them. And one of them is always, what revenue and profit are we shooting for you? You can't get away from those you don't exist just to make money. But you have to have a financial plan? Well, yeah, it guides when you're going to hire people and buy things. So that's one of them, what is my profit? What's my sales goal? Another is what marketing plan? Do I have? How am I going to promote what I do? marketing? And then perhaps selling as well? How am I going to get out there and, and, and bring in leads and be on the front foot from a selling stamp that needs to be part of it. Another is? What do I need to do to my infrastructure? Do I need new software? Do we need a new building? Do we have the tools that we need? So those are all areas that that we make sure there's at least an entry in all of those. And in part of infrastructure, we look at key hires and that sort of thing? What is the one person I need next year that's going to fulfill this vision? Or three people or five people? Brilliant, those all need to be in the plant?

Daniel Franco:

How, when you are looking at them from a you know, you've talked about personnel. And I know you really you and I met a lady at a summit where you spoke about leadership, you did it you provide a keynote on leadership. How important are the leaders of the business and their vision of what the business is actually trying to achieve?

Mick O' Rourke:

Well, they there's one study I saw that said, the two main reasons businesses fail are not enough money, and no vision, or not a properly communicated vision. So that's how important vision can be. And it's the responsibility of the top person in the company to make sure everybody knows where the company's going. Absolutely the first responsibility. I think I've told you before my short form on leadership, it's a lot of things. But it's VIP, be a VIP, provide vision, work with integrity, which is walking the walk of your values, and have a passion, VIP, and passion, I don't mean means you have to be some person who jumps up and down on a table or Braveheart or something. But it means that when people look you in the eye and you say this is what's happening, they believe you. So if you provide that sort of leadership, it's of which vision is is the most important. And every one I've every study I've ever looked at. Absolutely your companies will fail for lack of vision. It's hard to believe.

Daniel Franco:

So what's the what's the clearly communicated vision look like?

Mick O' Rourke:

Well, it's a compass point. It's aspirational in some cases, and let's use NASA in the US as an example of clearly articulated vision for them would be, we're going to go where no man has gone before. That's actually Star Trek. NASA got it wrong, because they said we're going to put a man on the moon, and then the world fell apart for them because that was a mission and not a vision. A vision is aspirational. You never quite get there to be the top communication and change and company in Australia. That could be your vision. That obviously will change and the goalpost keeps going out now, but it gives you an aspiration. So a good vision has that and it's also exciting.

Daniel Franco:

Think for us. We look at the Our vision is to create a world where people are inspired, and they're valued and fulfilled and safe. We know that that is ever get at its fundamental, we're never really going to reach it. But what it does do is it allows us to connect with businesses partner up with others who we can support and help those grow and help there. So the more and more people that we connect to So for us, the vision is yes it's at a point where, you know, we're talking about the world. And we understand most people and Simon Sinek, who I know you're, there's a cynic here as well. Who's you know, the start with why is is really a big piece. There's a lot of businesses out there who are saying, Let's conquer the world. It's a it's a, it's a aspirational target, that realistically is going to be tough to crack.

Mick O' Rourke:

Yeah, the it is related absolutely, to your emotional reason for being. And that's where Simon Sinek comes in with his start with why it's really what made him famous. But think about, it's not only good for your customers, because people want to shop buy from be associated with people who believe like they believe. They call it a tribe that gets thrown around the world. But it's true. We're tribal people. So if you have this great vision, this reason for being customers want to buy from you, they'll find a reason to buy, it doesn't matter if it's a tender or anything they'll buy from you because they believe in you. Yeah, but if you can't articulate that, you're, you're missing a big opportunity. And you're missing an opportunity, a recruiting opportunity as well, because employees want to work for a company they believe in. Otherwise, they're just working for a buck. And you don't hang on to those people for that long.

Daniel Franco:

So going back to the leadership aspect, when you're building a business, how important is it as to be self aware, in your leadership abilities?

Mick O' Rourke:

Well, self awareness, I guess, is good in its own right. But is you remember when you mentioned that talk I gave, My belief is that you can do a better job at leading a company if you figured out how to lead yourself. And that comes down to that habit too. We talked about this, what's important to you? What are your values? How do you roll? And because if you're specifying

Daniel Franco:

integrity in the VIPs,

Mick O' Rourke:

exactly. And it's if you don't have integrity in your life, if you don't have values in your life, how do you create them for a company? How do you get? How do you sell that? It's you'll you'll appear to be a wanderer. It's true on the management side, which is the more boring side, if you can't manage your life, if you can't get things done during the day, you're probably going to reflect it and how you manage your company. That's habit three is personal management. We talked about the four DS and so on. That's the boring part. But you know, you need to know, great companies need really good leadership, they need really good management as well. Not necessarily in the same person. But if they lack one or the other, they will fail. Or they certainly won't grow very big. And it even comes down to innovation. If you don't innovate in your life, you don't work for constant improvement. Are you going to have that mentality to to do innovation in your company? I think maybe not.

Daniel Franco:

So when you say innovate, that's personal growth within self is anything. It's habit seven. I'll

Mick O' Rourke:

go back to covey. Yeah, I don't have a statue of him in front of mine. It's where he calls a sharpening the saw. Yeah. Constantly, tweaking your mind up constantly getting your health better, your physical health better. Your emotional, and spiritual health, redefining what you believe in connecting with people constantly. That's, you hear a lot, a lot of books are written that really came out of covey stuff about Sq and EQ and all those. Those are just aspects of a person in sharpening the saw four aspects of a human being

Daniel Franco:

perfect. What other than the seven habits and atomic Seven Habits of Highly Effective and atomic habits. You begin the habit by the sounds of things, the one or two, what's one of the most influential books that you've read in your life?

Mick O' Rourke:

Well, I'll stick to the business end of things, if you will, yeah, one right now where I am in my life and this changes. You need good the right habits, seven habits to be highly effective. But being able to actually do those, you need a methodology, which is where that atomic habits comes in. So those go well together. But the final element of the equation that I throw in now is having a concept for yourself and a concept for your company that's more eternal than it is one year from now. I'll be here three years from now, those are just kind of functional. But the idea that Simon Sinek has in his book, what's that latest book, his

Daniel Franco:

infinite game?

Mick O' Rourke:

Yeah, the infinite game, he says, the best companies look at their company as if it will be around forever. And then they'll end up doing the right things for that company. Rather than just trying to beat the competition this week, constantly improving, you're going to be here forever. So we're going to take the long game, we're going to do the right things to build the company in the long run, not these quick fixes. I'm a big believer in that. And the personal analog for that is Mahatma Gandhi, which is live as if this will be your last day, but learn as if you'll live forever. And with that philosophy, you then it causes you to constantly be a learning machine. And if you're a learning machine, you're an improving machine. If you take that, that learning into

Daniel Franco:

practice, I think it was you that was talking to me about the 1% each day.

Mick O' Rourke:

Yeah, if you in atomic habits, it says, if you get 1%, better today, than you were yesterday, for 365 days for one year. Yes. can feel how much this is compound interest? Yeah. How much better Will you be at the end of the year 1% better today than I was the day before? Well, most people will say, four, five, even some will jump to 10. But if you do the math, it's 38. So imagine if you only get 1% better every week, you still get that exponential Yeah, effect. And then you do that year in and year out if the potential is massive. Now on the other hand, if you get 1% worse, you let yourself slide, you just kind of regress. At the end of the year, you're 1% worse than you were the day before, you'll be point oh three of where you were at the start of the year. So the idea is to try and improve a little bit every day. Which again gets us back to the Kaizen continuous improvement. It's not exciting. Not. It's also Alright, I'll extend it now will really get philosophical accent to my concept of happiness. Everybody's looking for happiness, oh, I just want to be happy I'll find happiness under a rock or table or when I achieve this, what if you accept happiness as just getting a little bit better, and fulfilling your potential 1%. And then you can celebrate, and 1% you can celebrate again, you don't have to wait till you hit a goal make $10 million or live in this house, you can reward yourself in a happy fashion. Whenever you make a little bit of improvement. Wouldn't that be nice? And then you realize, wow, I can be happy a lot. Yeah.

Daniel Franco:

What does 1% look like though? We spoke about 1% being 1% better? Is it picking up a book? Is it going for a run or eating the right food? What does 1% look like? Yes, that's it. That's the heartbeat doesn't mean 1%

Mick O' Rourke:

means I'm going to park my car a half a K away and walk to and from work. I'll get a I'll get one more kilometer and it's I'm going to take the stairs. I'm going to not put sugar in my coffee. It's boring stuff. Most people can't bear it. But if you have the concept of little changes, make big differences it is doing okay, I'll do five push ups. Most people think that won't get you anywhere you default it well. That's because pretty soon you realize wrong. And that's easy. I can do eight, then 10. You know in the book, he says even if you feel like not going to that gym membership, you signed up, go and spend five minutes. Yeah. Because then you're defining yourself as a person for a lot of is identifying with it identifies a person who works out. You will do that just by going to the gym. Yeah. And that little thing, that tiny thing. It makes a big difference,

Daniel Franco:

and then you'll say well, I'm here. Oh, yeah. The I was about five push ups. Someone said to me, if you do 10 push ups a day for a whole year. It's 3650 push ups. So that's more than what you would have done last year. So instantly, surely you can see that improvement. So yeah, it is a sort of amazing.

Mick O' Rourke:

The quote I like is we tend to overestimate what we can do and a year and underestimate what we can do in a day. And because I'm going to pound Seven Habits on your habit one is be proactive. get things done. Yeah. Make a difference. Don't wait for things to come to you. get things done today. You can do a lot of things today, but we tend to say well I got all week to do it. I Got a year to do. So we overestimate what we thought we could get done in a year. And we underestimate what we can do in a day. Trying to have a really productive day one day, say, I'm just gonna crack everything today. You will be amazed at what you get done. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the part of the concept of tiny, tiny changes, tiny habits become big over time, but most of us are looking for the moonshot. Ah, I'm gonna put one on the moon here. And I'll do it three weeks from now. And then we never do it, we never do. So.

Daniel Franco:

We're coming to a close now, the podcast. So thank you, your pearls of wisdom and philosophy are amazing. I've gotten even though you and I've had a lot of these conversations before I am learning more and more of you every day. So thank you for that.

Mick O' Rourke:

While you're too kind. Thanks

Daniel Franco:

Before, we generally like to wrap up the podcast with a few quickfire questions.

Mick O' Rourke:

I'll try I know you ask those wierd questions

Daniel Franco:

if you could have one superpower, what would it be?

Mick O' Rourke:

I guess it's super, I would be a mind reader. Now, I think that might also have a really dark side.

Daniel Franco:

It would But I would think whatever you feel,

Mick O' Rourke:

because you wouldn't have to try and read everybody

Daniel Franco:

Yes has to decipher code. Yeah, just

Mick O' Rourke:

Hey, okay, I know what's going on. It'd be an awesome power. But I think it also might drive you crazy would.

Daniel Franco:

So it need to be sweet.

Mick O' Rourke:

Yeah, you need to be able to shut it off. Because would your partner really want to be your partner? If they knew you could read minds, but you have to be something that no one else knew.

Daniel Franco:

Yeah. If you could read minds, you wouldn't tell anyone?

Mick O' Rourke:

No, no, that would ruin your life.

Daniel Franco:

You wouldn't?

Mick O' Rourke:

Yeah, absolutely. But that'd be a superpower. That's for sure. Yeah, it would. Yeah.

Daniel Franco:

Make selling easier.

Mick O' Rourke:

Make selling really easy

Daniel Franco:

What do you want? It says, and that comes down to the understanding, seek to understand if you get paid once, you're already halfway there. If you had access to a time machine where, would you go?

Mick O' Rourke:

I know it's gonna sound weird. But I go to the Jurassic period. I just have to see these dinosaurs. It just always is. I've always loved the dinosaur thing. And I would I love Jurassic Park the movie. Yeah. I would just love to see that. I'd make sure I got a return trip.

Daniel Franco:

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, no one

Mick O' Rourke:

could go quickly into the food chain there. But assuming we could solve those problems will be so wild

Daniel Franco:

it would be. Yeah. So the future doesn't appeal to you? No,

Mick O' Rourke:

it does. But I'm not as much as I'm not sure how much I'd be disappointed. Or when I came back.

Daniel Franco:

Sometimes it's best not knowing.

Mick O' Rourke:

Yeah, I'm not so sure how good that would be that again, might have its own dark side.

Daniel Franco:

Yeah. You mentioned earlier that you were taking off you sold some businesses and we sold them. Centauri and then you then we're taking off your bucket lists. What's one thing left on your bucket list?

Mick O' Rourke:

You know, I I got a prelim look at that. I just have a big bucket list. Yeah. And it included going to places and I've had great opportunity to travel to a lot of countries and do a lot of things and climb mountains and do all that sort of stuff. travel around the world with my with two of my kids and climb Mount Kilimanjaro. And so I have a lot on my bucket list. Yeah, I am one of the fortunate individuals that I'm in the bonus round. You know, like when you used to play, pinball, you play some of those games, you're in the bonus round. It's all gravy at that. Yeah. And so I don't, it's probably terrible. I don't have a bucket list now. And I appreciate every day now I just get more bonuses all the time. And probably I focus more now on my grandchildren in terms of, of what I can do for them brings me a lot more satisfaction than going to another place and visiting another museum or, or going on a hike. I do like doing those things, but they're not really bucket list items for me now. I really would like to make a difference in more people's lives. I'm not sure how that manifests itself.

Daniel Franco:

We definitely going on about it the right way.

Mick O' Rourke:

Well, I don't know. I'm trying it. I started when I'm, you know, I've learned so much about business that maybe I can help some companies there. That's where I focused it. Whether it's my own family or other folks. That's more what drives me then visiting another town another mountain range. Just

Daniel Franco:

What's your purpose now as opposed to what's Yeah,

Mick O' Rourke:

it's the old when you're when you feel like you're in the fourth quarter of a game. Yeah, I think a lot of us start looking at our legacy and You know, have as my life had any meaning, can it still have meaning for other people? Buying tours and visiting places is just not on my list? Yeah.

Daniel Franco:

Great. Now you didn't want me to ask this question but I'm going to ask it. In fact, you didn't know what it didn't know what a dead joke was. I had to explain it to you. So dead joke is a shit joke. But what's your worst joke that you've got lined up?

Mick O' Rourke:

I told you some I can't can remember those before. But apparently all my jokes are dead jokes. I realize my kids don't that's a dead joke. I thought yeah, that's it. might not ever calling man that really stunk. I probably can't think of a good

Daniel Franco:

Yo, Google one. Is good.

Mick O' Rourke:

Oh, yeah. It's that one about...

Daniel Franco:

it's a it's a marketing. Yeah, it's a marketing joke.

Mick O' Rourke:

Yeah. I mean, if you want to get rid of your mother in law, never have her be found. Where do you put her? And that's on the second page of a Google search. When we talk about marketing and the importance of, of SEO, Search Engine Optimization, and, and so on, from just playing Google searches. That's what we say. If you're not up on Pay several times on page one on your key. Your key words. You're in some trouble. Yeah. And in this day and age, you really need to be so that's one of those fundamental places, but absolutely not I love with jokes. I can say a lawyer jokes, but then I might get in trouble. Yeah, Lord, I don't do this.

Daniel Franco:

We'll leave them for podcast 2.

Mick O' Rourke:

Yeah. Okay. Thank you. My mother in law was a lawyer. Very good.

Daniel Franco:

Thank you very much for your time today. me this has been enlightening, I think would be the correct word. Where can we find it? First of all, do you want to be found? And where can we find you? So?

Mick O' Rourke:

Well, I'm you know, I'm not in the mainstream. At one point, I pulled down everything. In fact, I've been on Facebook in a long time I was on LinkedIn. I have been since I got back into Nuago. Certainly I can be reached on LinkedIn under my name, or Mick.orourke without the apostrophe at Nuago.com.au. If anybody has a question, I can help them with something that doesn't drag me in too far. I'm quite happy to do that. I'm also probably I could be reached through the Center for Business Growth. But the LinkedIn and the Nuago address are probably the best two contact points. And as you know, because we've been working together, I enjoy working with businesses. But I don't want to over commit and then you don't do a good job. Yeah. So there's a caveat. There's a caveat on there. And it's not because I'm super cool or anything. It's just a reality that I do like to do good work when I

Daniel Franco:

Well, you want to stick the quadrant 2 stay in?

Mick O' Rourke:

Yeah, I don't want to just sign up for a whole bunch of things, and then not do good.

Daniel Franco:

Very good. Thank you very much again, thank you. Absolute pleasure.

Mick O' Rourke:

Thanks for having me on. And you're very complimentary. I hope I can live up to those comments. Thank you.

Daniel Franco:

Thanks. Geez. Thanks, guys. Bye bye.

Synergy IQ:

Thank you once again for joining us here at creating synergy. It's been great spending this time with you. Please jump on to the Synergy IQ Facebook and LinkedIn page where the discussion continues after the show. join our mailing list so you'll know what's happening next at Synergy iq.com.au. And of course, don't forget to subscribe to this podcast. And if you really enjoyed it, please share it with your friends.