Creating Synergy Podcast

#23 - Adam Thompson on Strategy and Organisational Design

December 03, 2020 SynergyIQ
Creating Synergy Podcast
#23 - Adam Thompson on Strategy and Organisational Design
Show Notes Transcript

Adam is a consultant in strategy and organisational design, writer and video producer. He's known for having a deep knowledge of people and organisations and delivering this is in a way that is straightforward, understandable and practical.  He helps leaders who are both reflective and results-oriented create a strategy that will work and then build the capability in their organisation to deliver. Founding his practice in 2012 after a successful executive career focussed on rebuilding teams, department and businesses, he has been involved in a range of profit and for-purpose industries, working in both the UK and in Australia. With his ability to integrate the latest thinking with foundational concepts of work, people and organisations, he has many long-term clients who return to him a so they can lead their organisations and divisions to make the difference they are looking to make. 

In today's podcast, Adam and Daniel discussed Adam's thoughts on why engagement within companies is at an all-time low and the fundamental strategies that leaders can utilise in order to begin the process of improvement. We also discussed the different types of leaders he sees within businesses and his recommendations in ways that the level of thinking can be elevated.

This was an enlightening podcast and a must-listen for all strategic leaders out there. 

Where to find Adam Thompson 

LinkedIn: adamgthompson  

Blog: http://zenorganisations.com/ 

Website: https://www.thompsonorganisations.com.au/ 

Join the conversation on Synergy IQ LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram (@synergyiq) and please support other leaders by liking, subscribing and sharing this podcast.  

Access SynergyIQ Website to get to know more about us.  

Say hello to our host Daniel on LinkedIn

 

Synergy IQ:

Welcome to creating synergy where we explore what it takes to transform. We are powered by Synergy IQ. Our mission is to help leaders create world class businesses where people are safe, valued, inspired and fulfilled. We can only do this with our amazing community. So thank you for listening.

Daniel Franco:

Hi there, synergises. And welcome back to another episode of The creating synergy Podcast. I am Daniel Franco, your host and today we are very lucky to speak with a man who is one of the best storage banks of knowledge that I've ever met. His name is Adam Thompson. I seriously this guy's the ability to rattle of one 15 on page 234 of Leo Tolstoy's war of peace. Well, maybe not that extreme, but it's absolutely amazing. Adam runs his own consulting business in the strategic and organizational design space. And he's known for having a deep knowledge of people in organizations and delivering this in a way that is straightforward, understandable and practical. He found that he's practicing 2012 after a successful executive career, which was focused on rebuilding teams, departments and businesses. And he's been involved in a range of profit and for purpose industries, working both in the UK and Australia. These ability to integrate the latest thinking of foundational concepts of work people in organizations, he loves to help ladies who are both reflective and results oriented and a seeking to create a strategy that will actually work. In today's podcast, Adam and I discuss these thoughts, why engagement within companies is at an all time low, and the fundamental strategies that you ladies can utilize in order to begin their process of improvement. We also discuss the different types of leaders he sees within businesses. And he's recommendations in the ways that we can actually raise our level of thinking. This was an enlightening podcast, and a must listen for all strategic leaders out there. I hope you enjoy. So welcome back to the creating synergy podcast. My name is Daniel Franco, your host and today we have the man the myth, the legend. Adam Thompson, welcome to the show, man.

Adam Thompson:

Thank you.

Daniel Franco:

We want to start off by asking first question, who is Adam Thompson? And what do you do?

Adam Thompson:

Yeah, sure. I guess I'm a guy who knows a lot about organizations and people in them. And I'm someone who just likes being valuable. So ultimately, I remember being[inaudible audio], I would have been 10 or 12 years old. And I found my dad was in business, a found in his bookshelf a book called you know, the classic the one minute manager. Yes, I read that. And I remember finding it interesting. I don't remember exactly what I did with it or anything like that. But it was definitely something was interesting. So looking back, yeah, Rick, and I always had this, I'm into this management or this work sort of stuff. Yeah. So and then I went to uni. I did economics, I didn't have the guts to do art. Because I didn't want to do accounting. And I wish I'd had the guts to do art because that's a degree I really admire. Yeah, but it's the next life. That's odd economics. Because economics, you get to have three electives. Three compulsories, out of eight versus accounting had five, so do economics. And then a friend said you want to do law. So I said, Okay, so I've gotten the law. And then I'll become a qualified barrister and solicitor, because I was going to go to London, and I thought that'd be useful qualification to have. So I'm kind of like, I've never worked as a lawyer on the equivalent of a doctor who's got a medical degree has never been a doctor yet. So I'm kind of like, they're excellent. Then when I got back from London, it was knowledge base to have though. It's handy in a way it gives you like a perspective of, we can come up with any answer we want. That's what's new. But I did a subject called jurisprudence, philosophy of law. And I got a massive market, like I got, I think, in 92, or 93. It just flooded my boat in the sense of, um, because I had this tutor. And I remember he said, there. He pointed at the edge of his desk, and he said, I see a pink elephant. And everyone went silent. And then he said, so I'm seeing a pink elephant, which means we have a problem here, because we don't have the same reality. And that was the first of a tutorial. And I was sitting there thinking, yeah, I'm into this. Yeah, this is gonna go Yeah. All About perspective. perspective, your angles. What is reality? Yeah, I ended up doing my final thesis on the book Zen and the Art of motorcycle maintenance and how it relates to golf swings from the book, the inner game of golf. Okay, right. And I still remember reason Professor Michael Detmold. He wrote, I think our conversation on this topic has now been completed. Remember the city?

Daniel Franco:

So we want to release the Zen. That's my desert island, but yeah, that's the one that is a I've heard it's really great. I've got it sitting on my shelf. I haven't read it yet.

Adam Thompson:

Yeah, it's just um, it's hard to describe how good it is. It's practical. It's deep. It's um,

Daniel Franco:

it's almost It's New Age philosophies. And it really

Adam Thompson:

you like philosophy? Told with a story about a father and son. Which is pretty much true. The story Yeah, yes easily does it all in book I read it once every probably two or three years. I sort of remember it's been long enough now kind of that I'll read it again. Yeah, so that's that's my desert island book

Daniel Franco:

mine that I've mentioned a couple of times in the show. The Alchemist is one that I tuned back to just to get really inspired by the journey.

Adam Thompson:

Do you go Kindle? Or does it sit on?

Daniel Franco:

I have the hardcopy books I find if I really Kindle is no different to looking at my phone. Right? So yeah, the the I don't know why. And I highlight a lot, not so much the fictional stories but the nonfiction stuff or highlight take notes. So I'm not really good enough on the Kindle. I do have a Kindle, I just don't use it.

Adam Thompson:

You know, you do the Kindle highlighting. And then you get a thing called read wise. And then that automatically collects all your highlights, and then you can get it to email you five a day. So it's like getting your own perfectly curated instant, good quote, list.

Daniel Franco:

What you get the app on the Kindle?

Adam Thompson:

you get read wise you sign up to I think it's an app as well. It automatically syncs your Kindle hightlights over there. So when I'm doing videos and stuff, a lot of the times I'll just go through read wise, and I think that's a good point. I might do a video on that. So yeah, it's really it's a it's a great

Daniel Franco:

You may just taking me off all those books. So family kids.

Adam Thompson:

Yeah, got three kids. They're in year three year one and kindy. Yeah, right. So that's two boys and a girl, the last ones in kindy. And I say last on purpose, and definitely the last with you in the rap game. That's for sure. Now, I found the first few years of being a parent a real struggle. It was the first time I reckon that on a genuine thing that I couldn't do naturally. Yeah, like I played baseball at a good level, just within the state. You know, and I worked hard, and I tried. But you know, I had a bit of a natural ability at it. Yeah. And in school, I had a bit of a natural ability. So it was only till I had kids that I realized, Jesus, not that I'm awesome at everything. It's the fact that I've always just done things I'm naturally good at this is real. Real awakening. Actually, I'm I'm embarrassed to think that if I hadn't done it, the sort of tosser I might be in the sense of thinking I'm someone who's good at stuff. Yeah, some really good blinkers on. Well, what more worldly perspective by having Yeah, you're not that good. The other thing that was interesting was finding out that, um, I've never been that good. Generally speaking, I mean, specific stuff, but none of the friends or people who love me kid so it was really it was really nice thing about it was just me. Say that was nice.

Daniel Franco:

So I found I remember when I first had my kids, I remember my first daughter sitting down watching TV, like a movie or something like that. I mean, just sci fi. So I remember it was a sci fi movie. I can't remember what it was. And I remember it was 11 o'clock. My wife, we used to do sort of the shift work, and she would do and I'd say up and do the 11 o'clock, two o'clock fade or whatever it was. She I remember her my wife being in bed and my daughter Ana started crying at around 10 o'clock. Yeah, it's not even your time to be fed. Yes. What are you doing? Yeah. And I remember the thought process that went through my head that I actually when shit, it is no longer about me. Yeah, yeah. I it's not what

Adam Thompson:

and it's a staggering realization. Yeah. I wonder it's, I think it would be high percentage on men more than women. If men really can get that probably, huh. You know, because, like, the way I see it, like, I was born in a society made for me, you know, like, I'm a middle aged white, straight male. Yeah. And so there's almost this deep sense of It's embarrassing to say, shock when you have to do something, you just don't feel like doing it. You know, and that's, to me, the emotional worker, like I'm 46. So the emotional work of my last 10 years has been to actually become an adult. Yeah, it's been hard.

Daniel Franco:

It's a big growth learning. The other thing is knowing that you got these little creatures running around, watching and learning everything you do every action that you take every reaction that you have. Yep, they are sucking in that knowledge. Yeah. And building their own little personality. Yeah, it's a big responsibility to have on someone who hasn't got it right themselves. So no, the thing is this, even if you're an asshole, they still think you're awesome. And so they look good. So they will adjust the view of relationships and now according to have a relationship with an asshole, so it is true. So that's the level of deep stuff that's going on. Yeah, at a really early basis that either way they connected to you. The question is what sort of person are they connected to? So that's true, yes, for long enough, so and so what you see a lot of workplace stuff when things aren't working, okay, in the workplace, you'll see some of that sort of things coming. It's almost like not everyone brings a shit into the workplace, but workplaces can easily trigger people shit. Hmm. So the solution isn't everyone in the workplace has to do therapy. But if we're not thinking about how organizations work, remembering that everyone's got shit under the surface, yeah, that we're easily able to just sort of open the hatches and all that shit is going to come out and then we can start blaming the people for that. Not realizing that you know, they've got a bit of responsibility, but the way we set the place up can easily trigger whatever each person shit is, you know, some people go quiet some go over the top some way the stress internally, some become achieving tosses that then identify with like everyone's got their own yeah shit. Yeah, that's gonna come out in the workplace. You are be lucky. We're diving into straightaway what you do you are a consultant that works. Yeah. Organizational organizational development strategy.

Adam Thompson:

Yeah, generally I call it strategy and organizational design. So the way that describes it is, it's um, where's the organization going? What do we know where we're going roughly how we're going to get there? And are we set up with how to do it? And the setup normally involves how we structured what practices do we use? What do we look at? How do we treat each other?

Daniel Franco:

Yeah, that's what you were saying before? I mean, I know you work a lot on fundamentals. Yeah. You're the point you just made before is there's a lot of other stuff fundamentally going wrong. Yeah, before you can even start to scratch the surface of what's happening in a strategy world. Yeah, and you dive into that a little bit more?

Adam Thompson:

when in terms of things going wrong, it's just it's all a bubbling mess, to a great degree there. Like as in you know, it, it's kind of um, like, heaps of stuff gets done in the world every day, like we're sitting here in a nice room, we've actually got some nice technology around us. So despite all the rubbish and the pain going on our workplaces, stuff just keeps actually occurring. Yet, it seems to occur with a lot of pain. And I think that's what happens whenever you throw a group of humans together into some sort of setting. And remember the key difference between the workplace and a social occasion. It's the idea of being goal directed, there's some sort of either clear or not so clear goal, but some feeling of a direction that we should be going in. Yeah, that forces people together. And then that's going to it's almost now press play on tape. And we're going to see predictable things happen from that.

Daniel Franco:

So purpose vision value, you're saying, all businesses need that and that the fundamentals that you're

Adam Thompson:

I think it's easy to say, but there's kind of a talking about, point where it's like saying, well, to win, the Premiership is easy. All you need to do is make the finals and then get rid of the grandfather when the Grand Finals. Yeah. So I think by saying that a purpose and a vision we forget, that's kind of the outcome you're looking for. It's not the method. Yeah. And the purpose and vision thing, it's never quite as good as people think it is. And the only standard required there is good enough that I've got half a clue about what I need to do. That's it. Because if you go for the perfect one, you are going to end up with one of those. We make world class quality products on a quality scale strategically, blah, blah, blah, you're going to end up with one of those things. Yeah. And that man looks at neither race or taste, either. We think that people who put those together are well meaning and they want to do a good job. So they're not putting it together to think I'm going to be boring here. they genuinely want to do a good job. But something happens to them between when they were first working, and they thought that stuff was a bunch of shit. Yeah, you end up in a role where you're sitting there. Yeah, the level of guts required to put out a purpose or a vision. That's actually specific, yeah, that people can kind of think to get behind you. It takes more guts than we realize, because you have to be different to all your general manager and CEO mates. Yeah. And sometimes that's a bit of the work I do is to help people almost to have the guts to be different by showing them it's going to be okay. Do you think that they get wrapped up in the corporate world? wrapped up in the corporate world, but it's more than that. There's a guy called Peter block. And he's like, he's one of my kind of you call them book mentors? Yeah, although I connected with him on LinkedIn, I was like, I got this childish, it's real pickup optic connection. Excuse me, I might

Daniel Franco:

get up for coffee.

Adam Thompson:

I think I even sent him a message as if he was gonna respond. No he's a legend, when he started in the 60s, when, um, you might have heard of a thing called tea groups that was palling bunch of executives into a room and getting him to talk about their feelings, all that sort of he's written a few books, isn't there? Yeah. And he's progress has been from organizations just now doing communities in this brilliant thing as his brains expanded. Yeah, but he worked with a philosopher called Peter, Kirsten Bohm. And what they pointed out is, we're running from anxiety a lot of the time. And if you couch everything in the idea, just to try to understand it. So this isn't the truth, we just have to understand that people are taking actions to avoid anxiety. That's what explains why we get so many generic statements and that sort of thing, because you're generally going to be safe. If you say something, if you get out your values, and you've got the word integrity in there somewhere or trust you're going to have innovation in there somewhere because you have to in the current era, yeah, you probably would have had efficiency in there. If we go back 20 years ago, a lot there's certain placeholder words that will be seen. So the level of guts it takes to have a say some values that say we do these three things and the rest we just assume, yeah, that means you're going to be different. Yeah. And that does take some guts.

Daniel Franco:

It is funny because Michelle Holland, you know, business partner here at Synergy IQ she works with a lot of companies and values and vision and common school a thread for her when speaking to our clients is integrity, innovative innovation, these words they should just be they shouldn't be a word on the wall you should just go about you.

Adam Thompson:

We don't punch we don't punch people. Yeah, yeah, that's not a value.

Daniel Franco:

Yeah, 100%. Aligns you a lot when use is Don't be a jerk, right? That's common sense. Yeah, don't do it that way. But to strive for something greater than what is normal, or what is expected from society is a proper purpose that we get to work to.

Adam Thompson:

Yeah, we get this other dichotomy as well, which is, there's this little bit of an attempt to be too inspiring. There's been a lot of books put out to say, the importance of the inspiring vision and that sort of stuff. Just put out a good enough Peter block calls it a possibility just put out a good enough possibility. So it's got to be enough that it's far enough away that it seems like that's worth going for. But it can't be impossible. So the key word is possibility. Yeah, not impossible, and just describe it. And if it describes some sort of future state, that seems reasonable and worth having a crack at, that'll work. So even if it's a boring thing, that's not saving the world. Just remember, humans, goal directed creatures, when they're in the workplace, most times put up some sort of goal, that's not to crap. And people will respond. Putting up a goal that seems magnificent, that's really vague, that doesn't do could apply to any organization won't work, neither to saying, we're going to just make it up as we go either. So and that's where you get a lock a lot of the modern movement towards emergence in the like, emergencies, a nice formal way to say we're making it up as we go. But that doesn't mean we have to have a detailed plan. But it's good to have I kind of call it gravity, it's good to have some sort of sun or gravity thing that people can pull towards. But it doesn't need to be perfect.

Daniel Franco:

Is it a catch 22? For leaders, though, you put something out there and there are some people who are going to get who are going to buy into it? Yeah, yeah, that's, you know, let's use the Elan musk. You know, you walk into SpaceX, for example. And there's a picture of a spaceship on Mars, right? This is out there. What's the seems possible now? 10 years ago, we wouldn't have thought so. But it seems possible now. Where people buy in like it. Yes. Someone? What do I need to do? How do I go about it? But there are also people in the world who turn around and go, you're an idiot, right? Yeah. What are you doing? Yeah, it's a constant catch. 22? Is that why that we find that businesses do find that safe playing ground where it's like, well, that's attainable. And that's easy. And most people will think, you know, so we're trying to appeal to the masses as it

Adam Thompson:

Yes, I think so. And we forget, you can just do both, you can put out the mass spaceship and put out something really normal as well, like, um, so I kind of put both out there. But what we forget is, those things are effective when they reflect conversations that have already occurred. So to put it one way, if you think you're going to change culture, by your posters on the wall, you're insane. Yeah. However, if you have a conversation about how you want to treat each other, the group itself agrees and then says we should put up a poster about that, then that's going to work. So the poster is kind of like a thing that reflects a conversation can have value as a secondary thing. And so with all this sort of stuff, whether we're talking the vision posters on the wall, or whatever, it's about the conversations that occur. And it's interesting that all the work I do, whether it's strategy or design, looking at how work systems work, all that sort of stuff, the common link is we're all going to end up in a room at some point. And we're going to be talking about two things often at the same time, we're going to be talking about the work. And we're going to be talking about how we treat each other. And that's I'm yet to find I kind of always have something in the back of my mind. Is there any other third category of conversation in the workplace? And I'm yet to find it, rather talking about the work? Or we're talking about how we treat each other? How are we going as people, when you say talk about a work, the word, strategy or strategy, the work could mean what the work should be? What would be appropriate work, that's the strategy stuff, we can talk about how the work is going, what do we need to change? all that sort of stuff, talking about the work? And then how we treat each other? How are we going? Is that part where you are saying, how are we going here? Look, everyone's eyes are hanging out of their head, it seems like we're stressed. Let's talk about that. Yeah. We seem to be getting snappy to each other, no one seems interested anymore. Let's talk about that. And just being able to bring those conversations out onto the table. That can be quite useful. And I've got a little bit of a, I don't know if you'd call it a trick, but I call it a Trojan horse. So I am I do a lot of work with Eli goldratt stuff. Theory of Constraints, which people mistakenly think applies to production logic. They don't know very well, but but it's, it's brilliant in terms of getting focused on what's really going on here. But I can draw it up with some boxes and arrows in our work group through a couple of exercises so they can sort of see gold wrench genius always pointing out. I'm just a dude who can explain this, right? Yeah, genius is gold rat. But in having that conversation, I always I think the thing I bring is I know how to drop in certain sentences or questions. They get the group to talk about how they actually treating each other. because no one's going to rock up, especially in a pretty result driven environment to say, let's do Kumbaya, but they will rock up to a workshop to talk about our work system and whether it's effective and what do we need to change. But in that the conversation, I know how to bring it across the saying, Well, one of the key things for results is going to be how we treat each other. Maybe not in those words. So we end up talking about that as well. How do we sing Kumbaya together? Basically, yes, it's like we rock up to a workshop to discuss the how acoustic guitars work and how we're going to adjust the bridge and the string is not realized. But in doing that, we need to actually have a conversation to say, hey, what is having the strings tight melody? Yeah, you know, and then before you know it, the humans are connecting a bit better, while they're actually talking about the word.

Daniel Franco:

Wait. So this is an amazing, I love this topic. And I'm just flabbergasted by your ability to retain knowledge, by the way, you read it off probably 16 books in the first five minutes.

Adam Thompson:

This is the one environment where my knowledge is useful. If you talk to my wife, and especially my my oldest, my oldest, my, he's in year three, he's now taken to looking at me going dad, that is useless information.

Daniel Franco:

I'm just trying to put Lego together.

Adam Thompson:

So I'm lucky this job called consultant and organizations exist. Because it gives me something that I can focus on and be useful

Daniel Franco:

when you're almost like the Brian Cox of the, the astrophysics world, he has this easily put this will you do the same with the videos in your or your blogs that you that you write is you have this ability to put kind of the complex into a simple form or relate it to a movie or an analogy or something like that, which is is a skill set and its own? Yeah.

Adam Thompson:

And that there's sort of a patent to it, it's, it's to really respect the complexity to say, Look, your situation is not as simple. But a roadmap can be useful. So I'm going to give you a really simple model. And I'll always say this model is from this person, or combines these two people because I like even that, like maybe one in 10 in a given group will then come up to me afterwards to say, hey, what was that book? You were told? Yeah. And then they'll read the book. And that'll help the rest of the group. Yeah. So I always like to drop in. This is the geniuses whose work I'm using. And then by actually understanding what's going on, then my next question is right, how does this now apply to us? And then often, maybe there'll be a couple of if you got to be to the arms folded crew, they'll say, well, it's much more complex here. I'll say, Yeah, for sure. Let's talk about how the complexity works for you compared to this simple model. So either way, we end up having a conversation. But what's happened is the group has stepped back, yeah, they've taken a step back, or they've, you know, they've gone up the stairs to a higher level to see the traffic. Yeah. And the model helps him to do that, or looking down, looking down, get some altitude. And once you do that, then I kind of help the group. So I had one, one thing where I was helping a group come together, it was originally looked at as a structural problem between the work systems involved in a whole division, but the hell it was talking to the general manager, and I worked with him for years. So I said to him, your structure on declaring officially not cheat, okay. So the problem is not the structure, your structures, a good solid, standard structure, you know, you've you've got your call center, you've got your delivery arm, it's all pretty normal. So your problem is in the way your people are working together and what they're looking at. And then we realized that they weren't actually measuring the full end to end process, because they're decent, people wanting to do really well. And they were measuring each part of the process, but in that they're simply forgotten to measure the time from when a customer calls to when they get the goods delivered, they just forgot by accident. So and then the data guys will often bloody give you that information, you know, and so we got up, Yeah, I do. Um, my skills in Excel would be, I'd say, slightly above average. But that says, I can run a pivot chart. So I quickly grabbed the stuff turned into a time series diagram, which had lines and, you know, because people respond to teachers better, stuck it on the wall, I show them how to organize and how to have conversations about the work. And then over the next three months, the line, the amount of time it took the line was just a beautiful, less and less time, downward sort of angle. People started thinking I was a process improvement consultant. And I had to point out now if you want specific process improvement, you know, I know the best guys in Adelaide on which under them, but the improvement came entirely entirely from the group themselves. Yeah. And the part I brought was how to talk about the work. Absolutely. That is the skill set. It's been that was the the roses amongst the thought. And I've done well, when someone comes up afterwards to say, Well, that was pretty bloody obvious. That's when it's done well, because obviously, what I've done is I've had a fundamental Yeah, where it seems obvious, you know, and the impolite thing would be to say, Well, if it's that obvious, why aren't you doing it? But in reality, I'll do it myself. Like, I won't see things that are obvious, until someone points it out. And then I'll be going our ship should have seen so mostly said most people see things visually, most people like examples, as I think why most people can look at a picture more than an Excel spreadsheet. Yeah. And I'm one of those people, I guess. That's why I like reading a lot is because when you are given an idea about how to improve something, they give you 15 different examples of where it has happened. He needs j at some point. So it's like, Okay, cool. done before I can do it. Yeah. So let's use that as a base. How many are laid out of business? And I'm coming to you and I'm saying, Oh, I don't need some help. Yeah, first and foremost, why would someone come to you? Yes, I need help. Yeah, you've got a feeling that either the business isn't sure where it's going or it's not working as good as it could. Okay, that's the end of scope. Maybe you've looked at your, your, your information, maybe pulling your hair out or you or is it just a combination? I think it is. I think it's more of a timing thing for me. Sometimes often when someone To move to a new area, and frequently when I've worked with them before, so say someone goes from General Manager to CEO or senior manager, General Manager, they often get in touch with me. So I've got this new job or find my feet, and I'll call in three months. And they do. And, and often it's a matter of getting they've had an initial initial look, we get clear on what the work is. And then we look at how, how do they actually do work? What do they look at to see how they're doing, or we'll have a look at the structure to make sure that makes sense. You can even get some good old fashioned stuff, like if it's a traditional hierarchy, if you're running four layers of reporting, where there's only three layers of work, someone is getting crushed in, yeah. And then we get the group together to get them used to how to talk about the work itself. And so that would be the situation but but the the presenting problem, if you want to call it that is basically This place isn't working like it should. And it's not a specific thing, like, you know, we're hemorrhaging money, and we need to adjust his process today. It's more of a we're changing strategy, the markets changed around us, we're gonna have to go about this show differently. And I get the phone calling.

Daniel Franco:

So you walk into business and later calls you out of need help. Yep, there's something going wrong. I don't know what it is. Yeah. You walk in on Tuesday morning. And you say, you have all the all the key people in the room, or the key stakeholders, and you say, all right, what work are we doing? And how are we treating you today? And you facilitate a workshop?

Adam Thompson:

Yeah, that can often be the case. So I've had the initial conversation, maybe often, what I'll do is I'll have an initial conversation, I'll put some ideas out of it. How it can help is what I always say is, why don't we just grab lunch? or run me through what you're dealing with? I might stumble across two or three bits of gold that you might think that's all I need to know. And if so I just sort of say, speak of me. Well, you know, and yeah, and that's, that's cool to me if I can hit the because I think it is possible sometimes to cause an angle change in one conversation that could, because I've seen it happen. Yeah. But otherwise, often what I'll say is, let me have a think about the sort of ideas that might work, then I'll have another meeting. And then if that can work, then we'll talk about we're going to forget your people into a room and have a conversation about it. I've always got a key question I asked, though, which is, do you think things are broken? Meaning of people coming into the room that angry or detached or pissed off or whatever, that we need to do some pre work before we even get to the re? I'd say one in five.

Daniel Franco:

Yeah, that's the case. Was it mostly fractured or?

Adam Thompson:

No, no, sorry. One in five is probably fractured yet. We have to do some pre work. Yeah. And sometimes there's even been a couple of situations where I've said, Look, the issues here go be become very clear to say if I'm any sort of therapist, and it's an organizational therapist. Yeah, I'm not a psychotherapy. And so someone ever says the problem here is that my dad never loved me. I'm out. Yeah. As in also. You Yeah. Well, as my wife says, You don't open doors. You can't close. I'm very careful with that. Yeah, yeah, I would never do something in a workshop that push people into that zone. I'm happy to push people in terms of taking accountability and ownership. But if I can, I'm pretty good at telling when it couldn't possibly go deeper. And I never pushed people here. But when we saw what happened to the crows, I mean, that might have been well meaning from a couple of years ago. But obviously, people got pushed too far. Yeah. And that was a mistake. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever is what seems to be Yeah, it's easy to draw those conclusions. But that could be an example, just from what I know from the outside of well, meaning we're going to push people emotionally as opposed to physically Yeah, but too far. And I'm very careful to go nowhere near crossing over that line.

Daniel Franco:

So. So we do that workshop. Yep, we come up with a list of

Adam Thompson:

often in the workshop, I'm going to help people see what's going on. So I'll provide not a model or provide the model or combination of ideas that helps them see what's going on. And that's always the key is that moment of are we know what's going on here. And that's only going to lead to some obvious actions that we need to take place or some stuff we need to look at. And my preferred way to work is to then help them do the work. So I'm very specific in saying working alongside people. Because if you end up doing what I call a review, and recommend the chances that of that actually, making a positive change is pretty low. Because you end up giving people a report, where sometimes I even say to people, um, let's say I've got a given medium sized project. And it's at the point where I've kind of got all the information I want to know, and I'm about to write a report, I always call to say, instead of the report, why don't I just meet you for a coffee or go through my recommendations are and if you like them, I will start helping you to implement them. And let's call the rest of my feed that, could we get to things, I don't have to write a report, as I read enough in Unicode anymore. And you actually get to get this stuff implemented with someone who knows how to how to get things going with people and get them to understand what needs to be done. And so and most times people say yes to that, because why wouldn't you want to get it implemented, which is much better. For me, it takes me the same amount of time, maybe a bit more. But I don't have to write a bloody

Daniel Franco:

ad get past the gatekeepers ago. Now I want the report purely just so I can tick a box saying I've done something,

Adam Thompson:

that's fine. But one thing I do is that, um, I make sure I actually talk about what's going on. So I'll actually say, hey, look, do you mean do you need to be able to tick a box here and usually have a strong enough relationship I've worked with people or I've built a relationship with I'll actually say, yeah, that's what I would have found that out up front from you, then I would have had the conversation, what do you need to achieve here? And often, I can help them with a pathway to achieve what they needed to do a little bit better as well. That's where the strategy parking coming.

Daniel Franco:

So you go to then help them. So they said that we don't need to report. Adam. Yes, we will need to get started. What's the first thing you look at? Or do we'll go back? Where do you start? What's the low hanging fruit item?

Adam Thompson:

Yeah, the low hanging fruit is going to be? What are we looking at to see how we're doing? So if you take the basic rules about all we need to talk about is the work and how are we going, it's finding a regular meeting structure where we can start to get together to get good at talking about the work and where we're going. So I'm going to assume we've got some rough strategy in place now. And we're now talking about improving things or changing to get there. Most groups have weekly meetings that are awful. And they're to be avoided, which is a shame, because a weekly meeting can be a clearinghouse of issues that allows us to keep moving on track. So I can show groups how to look at both their operational work. And their initiatives haven't been at a couple of methods called work circles and the project factory. And then I tailor it for the particular organization, you dive into those a little bit more. Yeah, work circles, it's a combination of some of the modern ways of working, I'm hesitant to say teal, because that's become a bit of a full on thing that's gone a bit weird. But the idea is to adopt some of the more modern ways of working in terms of organizing around the work, and not around the the Orca, okay, so I call the org chart, the home base, and I call them work circles, just to give a different name to Team kind of creates a good vibe, I'm happy to call them whatever works for that organization. And the work circle idea is we organize around the work. And we also organize around the complexity level. So we want to have you call it a governing circle, which looks at how does the whole system work. And then we might have offshoot circles that look at how particular aspects of the system need to function. The big trick to it is, you're invited to the circle, if you can contribute to it. So a classic thing is a lot of organizations might have a rostering area, and the rostering area never shows up at the operational meetings. And often they have fights because rostering is accountable for efficiency silos, the silos, and so we'll get the rostering person to be in the meeting. And then they can start adding value, because if they're contributed to the work system, or the work circle, we need you in the room. Now sometimes if that person traditionally hasn't got along with people or someone in the room hasn't gotten along, I might have to have a chat to them to say this is on you as to whether it works or not. You've got history's

Daniel Franco:

most likely talking about work. So it was Lagasse top. So

Adam Thompson:

yeah, yeah. Lots of good stuff in holacracy. Yeah, yep, that sort of thing. So it borrows on a lot of those approaches, but it works within the existing hierarchy. So we don't need to send everyone on a three day training course to learn a whole new method. It happens organically. But what you end up with is a situation where people are now organized around the work. And the people who know what's going on are in the room. As you mentioned, we had a group of mates trying to get something organized, and you're trying to fix a car, and you had a mate who knew heaps about cars, you'd probably invite them along. It's kind of that Yeah, yeah. Just trying to get people to be normal stuff. Again,

Daniel Franco:

we did workshops with a big government organization, and we did the I don't know if you heard of the human synergistics project GSI is, and part of those team building products is sort of survival scenarios you stuck out in the bush or you there's a there's a fire, you know, Bush fire or whatever, you're you're in the middle of the you know, there's a tidal wave coming. And so you deal with it, and you're in a team sitting at a table trying to work through this, how are you going to get out of this situation? And one question that we often ask him at the end of that, when we go through sort of the feedback part of the of the process is did anyone ask if anyone's been in the situation. And it is quite astonishing to find that most people don't know someone who is quite reserved or introverted won't put his or her hand up and go, actually, guys, I've lived through a bushfire before. I reckon this is what we should do is it's really funny. So have a look at people in the room. Sometimes it's hard because they might not speak up, or they might not say, Hey, we actually have some input here. So how do you sort of overcome that when you when you're deal with building your work circles.

Adam Thompson:

the foundational parts are to point out what we're trying to do here. So this is the idea. I've got a couple of you'd almost call little speeches I make along the lines of I know it's hard for people who don't speak very often to speak, but what we're asking is that you don't deprive the group of your angle. There's a guy, there's a woman called Susan Scott, who wrote a book about fierce conversations, and she uses the beach ball analogy that say we're looking at a beach for you and me, and you'll argue that we see a green ball, or like you see a blue ball. But it's only if we actually both share our realities and are willing to say so out loud and willing to listen, do we kind of go Oh, well hang on. And then we might spin the ball and get on a beach ball. Yeah, so the beach ball analogy is really freaky. Like I know, I know, one CEO and a few general managers who often talk about the beach ball just because obviously when I mentioned it to them, it just caught on. They really like that idea. So

Daniel Franco:

what it comes back to exactly what you were saying before about gaining some high and different perspective, right. Everyone's Looking through their own lens, and different angles and different heights that the debate it makes perfect sense. It's really cheeky.

Adam Thompson:

Let's not forget, though, there's some parts where you'll never read it in the books necessarily. Or in the advice, which is sometimes i need to grab someone, let's say doing a workshop or grab a morning tea. And I'll say to them directly, you are talking too much. Simple as that, like, you know, you got all the techniques you can use to give people feedback, I'll say to them, you are talking too much. That'll get their attention. And I'll say, what you're saying is good. However, the percentage of your time you're taking up is too much. What I need you to keep doing is when the room is solid, saying something because you're getting everything going, you're playing that role for the group, you're the icebreaker. Keep doing that. But once the ice is broken, consider yourself having done an awesome job, and let the others talk. And I'll just say that to people, and they just respond because no one's giving them that feedback. They've always kind of known that they crapped on a bit. They've always felt that. And finally, someone has told them and I'm not bullshitting them, it's actually true, that everyone plays a role in the group. And someone who's usually has one or two people are always the ones to go first. Yeah, the trick is for them to shut up after a little while, and just tell them,

Daniel Franco:

it's fine. Going back to that exact same scenario, the survival scenario, one of the other questions we asked was, who was the one that spoke the most? Right, who was the one that took the most control? And, you know, almost became the leader of the group? by process of putting up their hand? Yeah. And it is, it is interesting, that the lack of self awareness that some people can have, when they are in that situation, they There is also the position that people just speak, because they're nervous, and they just want to let that you know, they just talk, they just talk, they're just talking. They know they can't stop and Yeah. Do you say that quite a bit? Yeah.

Adam Thompson:

Just over years of facilitating, it's I just see it as part of the job. So it's not like I'd go home and God God, there's this person, like it just, it'd be almost like saying, Oh, geez, I was playing footy and someone else wanted the ball. So yeah, there's no, I just see it as part of the job. And my general approach is I'll do the equivalent of walking alongside and putting my arm around them and then gradually pulling them off the path until they quiet Yeah. So yes, because what people are saying, it's, it's so rare that it's actually crap, it's just going to be their angle. So I've just got various facilitating things that I'll do that helped them feel valued, while also shutting it down. Because you know that the 8020 rule in the first 20% of people talking, they've covered 80% of what they're trying to say. But on the quiet people, there's just some simple stuff, get everyone to write down their thoughts on a particular really strong question. And the fact of writing it down gives people the guts to talk because now it's in front of them. Yeah, just little tricks that I've picked up over years of doing and actually done some formal, learning more about it, because I facilitate so often, it'll work well.

Daniel Franco:

So work circles was one of them going back

Adam Thompson:

Oh, the project factory, yeah, the project factory. There's various methods, it's a lot to do with Eli Goldratt. He's got a project management method called Critical Chain, which is brilliant. It's a, it's the method I generally recommend for looking at projects. But when I say project factory, whenever an organization says we need to get better at projects, they bust out new templates. To me, that's the equivalent of saying, the traffic system is not flowing. Let's teach everyone how to drive a car better. The problem is not going to be people's driving, it's only if you're actually that better driver, you're causing accidents that matters. So to get projects running better through a whole organization, in other words, genuine program management, we need to treat projects, like items going through a factory. And then once you do that, all the techniques that have been around for decades and how to make a factory work better come into play, you're going to find a constraint resource, and I call it a pacesetter, because in Australia, that constraint often, like, you know, you're the asshole, or you're the constraint, yeah, whereas constraint technically means the point which determines the pace of the whole system. It's going to be IT you know how you find that out, you simply ask any group of people, which division is everyone whinge about the most, they're going to probably say IT. That's because IT sets the pace. No one gives IT more resources, no one walks down the corridor, and gives IT half their budget to say, we can only go as fast as you can do stuff. So why don't you have more budget? So everyone's asking them to do more and more stuff. So they are basically the machine that sets the pace of the factory. Yeah. So by getting a given group of people or a whole organization to see how projects actually work as a factory, they then make some smart decision. How do we set up the IT area, so each machine can handle and you'll see it happen naturally in a lot of IT department, you've got a help desk. That's one example we have a help desk in the project area, supermarket, you'll see you got the express lane, then you've got the other lanes, service dilys taken number, so everyone doesn't keep hassling the person in the middle. So you can see normal life all these really good examples of how to organize. And then within that you've got some really interesting stuff coming through in terms of mainly IT development, which started from agile, but they tend to go into too much detail. So my method takes a macro view, but it allows you to see how projects flow through the whole organization. And you know, the result we're looking for, I call it just simply called Project throughput. How many projects do we complete in a given 12 months, if we can complete 8% more projects. That's a another month of projects completed with the same resources. So it's like a month's free production

Daniel Franco:

just like clearing up your processes you become?

Adam Thompson:

And how do I know we're going to be able to find it more productive? Because unless you've cleaned out your cabinet at home recently, you're going to have cans of tin beans off the back that you haven't touched for seven months. It's a natural human condition that you're gonna have shit up the back. Yeah. So unless you've deliberately cleaned out your processes recently, yeah. Now remember, I'm not talking process improvement. I'm no expert in that. I'm talking about the way we design how projects move through the whole organization. Yeah, yeah. So if you combine work circles for the operational with the project factory for projects, and then we organize a good what I call a governing meeting, to oversee how it works, then you can actually set up an organization where things flow better. And that becomes a goal. And remember that that simple number 8% means a month of extra work for free. That's all we need.

Daniel Franco:

Do you generally see the biggest roadblocks being leadership capability?

Adam Thompson:

I'd say what that does is almost makes an assumption there that there's that leadership not connected to something. So the way I would describe it would be the circular, coupled relationship that exists between leaders and those that they lead. So there's one way you can look at it, which is people get the leaders that they want. Because if you're looking for a certain type of leader, and you've got a department, it's acted a certain way. And they seem to get a bunch of bosses that come through. And I'm going to use Word boss deliberately because it demonstrates what the power relationship is. If they've had a series of bosses come through, and all those bosses seem to have the same issue. In any other field. Wouldn't we start asking maybe it's not the bosses? Yeah, maybe it's the way the boss is getting treated? Yeah. So I think it's a combination of and there's a researcher here in Adelaide Ruth seems and I really liked her work right here in Adelaide, she studies followership. And that's, I think, really important because it's a missing piece of the equation. So. So if we define leadership as simply the act of getting a group of people to willingly move in a direction, then you've got some roles in hierarchies, which need to have leadership. So a manager role is required to lead it's not optional. But that doesn't mean that only the manager roles can lead. So what I'd say is that the issue is often leadership. But I'm not going to say that, therefore the leadership exists with that person charged with leadership. I might say leadership as a general thing. Yeah. And then what I would do with, especially with a group of people is say, let's talk about how leadership happened to you. What really goes on? Why isn't it the simplest thing? Here's where we're going, Why doesn't anyone Just say yes, yeah. And I don't mean that in an accusing way. I mean, there's a genuine question, what is it that stops us simply saying, Yes, boss and doing it? And if we can get to having that conversation, change occurs?

Daniel Franco:

Is it as simple as leaders who Well, let's use the word manager? Yes, we can. So people have been promoted to a manager role based on their technical experience. And not because they're genuinely the best leader in the group. And also Further to that, they've also not been given the, I guess, role and responsibility understanding of what they're actually supposed to do as a leader.

Adam Thompson:

Yeah, it can be can be. So I think the first thing is, almost to be clear on what we're talking about. So if someone's putting, if we're talking about management, there's a simple way to look at management, which is to get what we expect from the resource. So if you manage a machine, your job is to make sure the machines working. And it sounds mean to talk about humans like that. But if you want to get really cold, the manager job is to make sure that that team of people actually produces what they're supposed to. And you can look at that partly as a matter of convenience, it's annoying to have to call nine people in to say, why isn't this stuff occurring? It's convenient to be able to just call one, yep, you've got that. And then what you've got is the actual ability to when we talked about altitude before the ability to get up above the traffic and see what's going on. So people have unfolding levels about how much that can occur as your life goes on. There's been research a guy called Elliot Jacks, and then the research of Julian Stan, that showed that, you know, those you've got the kids, you know, those growth charts they show for kids, yes, it turns out the capability, in other words, the ability to solve problems with different levels of complexity, generally speaking, and I'm saying that very deliberately, generally follow a path like those growth charts for kids. So the line that goes from the bottom left to the top, right, but a curvy sort of line. And what that means is, it's somewhat predictable how it's going to unfold. So if someone gets promoted into a role that requires him to look at, say, a whole system, but their natural capabilities better at solving unique problems, when they talk about the system and get conversation going with their people, it's just not going to sound good enough. It's going to sound a bit, yeah you're missing something, that sort of feeling. So you would almost say that that's the capability required to avoid that Peter Principle of people getting promoted to roles.

Daniel Franco:

How does the Peter Principle work again,

Adam Thompson:

you get promoted to the role of incompetence? Yeah. Yeah. And that's, that can be assessed. Actually, look, I worked with a couple of people who can actually give people an idea of where the capability naturally lies. Now, you're welcome to work beyond your level of capability. But it means you're going to be wearing some stress. It means you don't want to have an unstable life outside of work. So it's not saying that you can't work at a given level of capability. But if you are natural at that level required, whether it's frontline management or executive, you're more likely to find the flow. Then when enough technical knowledge so that the way I describe it is, you know, when you're getting bullshitting. Yeah, okay, so that's the technical knowledge rule, you don't have to be able to do people's jobs for them, which you need to know the jobs are for. That's the difference. I don't need to know how to work the machine. But I need to know how the machine fits in. So that's the technical knowledge that's required, and then you have to actually care about it. And I know this might not sound too standard, you have to kind of like people, or at least, even if you're not friendly, you have to kind of like people, you have to be the sort of person that discusses people. Because if your job is to keep planes repaired, and you hate planes, you're probably not going to go well your job to look after a group of people and you hate people. You're probably not going to go

Daniel Franco:

Yeah, well, you want to keep planes repaired and you only want to repair it by yourself, then that's an issue that says the team is what makes a good system doesn't really

Adam Thompson:

that's it? Yeah. But there's a skill, the interpersonal stuff needed as well, that ability to pull people aside have proper conversations. But that can be learned by just simply doing it again?

Daniel Franco:

Yes. Do you believe in each person going on that growth chart? Everyone's got their own ceiling? Or is it a matter of we can everyone can improve?

Adam Thompson:

What I what I believe so to speak is the way I would put it is the research suggests there's a predictable curve. But but you can, you'd almost say you can go into the red. Okay, so people can work above their ceiling. If my favorite moment was introducing these concepts in a workshop, and one of the general managers she said, so you tell me that I'll never be beyond say which is such a great line. Yeah. And I actually said, kinda, and she said, How's this? That's a relief. Often when people understand this stuff, and they can, with the people I work with, they give them the economy. This is how we see your capability. There's often sometimes tears as well, because people have lived a lifetime thinking they're not good enough. So to find out with a relatively like decades of research method that says, this is where your flow is, it's a feeling of relief for some people to go right, so I've been trying to get on a ride that I was never told enough for. Yeah. Other people aren't. If you're caught up in a thing where you only feel like a valuable human, if you achieve because your mom or your dad told you, you have to be the best. That can be quite a disturbing thing to realize that if you're only going to be valuable as a CEO, but your natural flow is running a frontline team, that can be a difficult thing as well. So

Daniel Franco:

you so I'm going to dive into entrepreneurship for that ceiling pace, I guess. Yeah. And going into the red and the beyond say, if you are setting out to build a business, you have a really great concept. Great idea. You want to set the world on fire, you want to take this company Australia wide or global or however you want to look at how do you know what that ceiling is? You go? Okay, so the next besides a new tech company, it's the next Facebook, right? Actually, I've always used the example, the next cure of potentially the cure for cancer, someone who couldn't afford an education. Right. So this I'm going to use the same analogy here and saying that the next Facebook or the next new tech that could save the world, is with someone who had a ceiling and couldn't get past that. Yeah. How do we know what our ceiling is? We're just constantly pushing the envelope.

Adam Thompson:

Yeah, I think you've answered the question itself. without pushing the envelope, we can tell when we're getting near our ceiling, by how someone's going if you're not sleeping, not because of the excitement of your entrepreneurial venture but because it's it's really stressing you if your family suffering. So there's a difference between a must write a book of had a book in me, you know, there's authors that write thank you to my friend, you know, what, always wonder, by the way, one of the family of saying you're good on your mate writing a book, or we should hang out with us.

Daniel Franco:

Yeah. That's it always being with us. Like,

Adam Thompson:

always want to see what the spouses responses. I want to I want to thank my spouse, you know, thanks to you, man. Yeah, but anyway, um, but you look for the stress. Now, if someone's feeling that you take it easy, there's got a brilliant model called the um, the business or the corporate life cycle is that you take adizes, okay? A di Zed es most of the people whose work I love and I use the traditionally either they're probably all over 65 or they're not even alive anymore, but they've got fundamentals that are still working, they can even the fundamentals even explained things like Halak recei and why it works. So I like kind of working with, if I could cook it, or it'd be more like I work with the basic ingredients and know how they put together I don't look at the recipes that are fashionable. Now, I know the basics of molecular how cooking works. I kind of work like that, but adizes talks about a thing called the founder's trap. And that's when a business grows, it's found to be successful enough, but now we've got the opportunity to grow. The founder's trap comes when the founder is not able to systemize and let go of the business to a degree. The extra bit of information you get from this cognitive capability idea is predictive about when the founder's trap over here. So someone who's got brilliant problem solving ability, say someone who is equivalent to a brilliant detective who can piece all together and come up with the answer might not be natural at systemising. So they'll be able to come up with a solution to say a customer problem, which is awesome. The ability to then turn that into a systemized business might blow their mind. Yeah, we're someone whose natural capability was it more the system sort of thinking they might, let's say they could come up with a genius solution, they might naturally systemize it, they might struggle when it gets to the strategic part. So the cognitive capability idea gives us a bit of a prediction about when the founders trap can be

Daniel Franco:

you got to know your strengths. I mean, like I said, Michelle, and I have this conversation quite a fair bit. I'm not the person that will put the pros put the process in place. Yes, if he did come to me, it'd be a mess. So you know, I have my own strengths. But that is that so we need to find someone who can do that for us. And that's the whole point of, of growing. When when do you see burnout? The most though? Because we talk about pushing the envelope. Do you see it a fair bit when you get caught in?

Adam Thompson:

Yeah, I see it everywhere. To the point where when I say I'm worried, but people often say I'm worried because I'm not kept awake at night. But it's something that I noticed, and I'm aware of. If you say to someone, How's work going? Have you noticed how often the standard responses a sigh you kind of get that (sigh) night? You know, yeah, yeah. And even in the workplace, and that sort of thing. And there's a sadness, and we've all got the data, or the Gallup polls, whatever percentage disengaged, and the rest of that sort of thing. So here's what I think's going on. I think since the mid 90s, when email came in the ability to merely assign work, someone even [inaudible audio], has never been hired, you've got all this complexity stuff going on, you got more and more pressure occurring. And so simply, the volume has now just been loaded on and someone eventually has to say no, and the person has been forced to say no is more and more becoming the person paid least in the organization. And so you've got this situation where the pressure is just building, you've got things like, changes now a constant, but most of us as people are not set to handle change is a constant, in fact, a very low percentage, I don't think I'd necessarily be one of them. Because remember that the way we're structured is as an animal, run from danger, wrist, hang out with your family and think thank God, the line didn't get me. So this idea of changes as a constant. Sounds good. But the people who are saying that are usually not the ones subjected to the change. And so what we've got is this disconnect between the people who need the work done and the people being asked to do the work, we're trying to address it with some self organizing stuff that requires a level of cognitive and emotional maturity, which not a high percentage of the population should necessarily have. And so it's just seems to me like the pressure is sort of building and building and building in the workplace, which spins out more and more consultants. But if there's too many people like me, who's doing the actual work, yeah, you know, so I think there's this weed. I don't know what you'd call it an epidemic, Oregon would be the word of just increasing. If you could have some sort of measure of base anxiety in organizations. My hypothesis is, it's gradually increased.

Daniel Franco:

You make a good point with email, and I'm absolutely I guess triggered by this is when an email pings in or I can feel the email vibrate in my phone. Why right?

Adam Thompson:

Can I ask you a question? Just Yeah. Why do you have those pings and notifications on? I'm intrigued?

Daniel Franco:

Ah, I have learned to not do emails, one that I still have kept on but all social media, what do you think you got an email? Because I'm an idiot. So no, I am learning and I think I do think I am now going to set up a structure and there's the Tim Ferriss, I'm not sure if Yeah,

Adam Thompson:

oh knows where it

Daniel Franco:

is, yeah, work, where it's you. You look at your emails between, you know, 12, and two and part of the day and you have an auto reply, saying, I'm only looking at my email, so don't even expect. Yeah, that is definitely something I'm looking into it.

Adam Thompson:

Can you hear language here? It's interesting. Isn't it set up a structure? and looking into Yeah, here's what you do. You get out your phone, you change the settings to a notification after you're done. You got a popping up on the bottom right of your screen on your computer. That's again, that's not saying that's so

Daniel Franco:

yeah, because and this is the thing, right,

Adam Thompson:

but you've got a pressure feel you feel anxiety and you're guessing you're thinking because you're on the role of developing the business. Yeah. What if that's an opportunity? What if that's the thing?

Daniel Franco:

I agree Yeah. And and that's the bit that I'm getting better at is realizing that no one's in a rush the why I'm in a rush when I'm trying to build this business, everyone is absolutely got their own shit to deal with. So when they send off an email, it is almost and I know I'm not the only one here is almost an expectation and I'll reply straight away. Right? And if our but on myself, I should say expectation, right? I know that the person on the other line was if we send like, we're not thinking about how quick I'm replying. They don't want you to reply. I don't think otherwise they would have messaged you, I agree or run Yeah. 100% so I do believe and you know, social media, we use the same thing. We talk about anxiety in young children these days and suicide rates and all that we can go in. And we don't want to, like you said before, they want to dive into what we know nothing about. But it's the constant pressure and [inaudible audio] and the dopamine here have something popping up on your on your screen.

Adam Thompson:

So it's gonna require a guess. Yeah, I don't remember I first heard the expression but stepping into the anxiety. In the often side, when I'm facilitating workshops, the people if let's say, there's someone who has spoken quite a bit, I'll often say here's a chance for someone else to step into the anxiety and go first. Yeah. And what's required to turn off your emails is to step into the anxiety of not knowing, by the way only takes a week.

Daniel Franco:

Do you do that?

Adam Thompson:

Yeah, I don't have any notifications on occasion at all. But the thing is, you get the Tim Ferriss characters, and they like, um, I use a model of adult ego development, and is combined with another model called Spiral dynamics, which talks about values DNA, like the very, it's not just preferences and personality stuff. It's like the DNA which drives the way you you make sense of the world. And Tim Ferriss, is your classic achiever character, yes, the color is orange when we give it Yeah, and you got all of the people who follow him at all about maximizing my diet, and I've got a look at the, here's how muscle mass works. And that, you know, you talk fast, and you have discussions about the right amount of fat and what to eat before you're fasting, you know, all this. And it's good fun, like, it's all achieving, and that sort of thing. Yeah. And so that's,

Daniel Franco:

but he's model is go to the extreme. And he is this is his thing. This is what it takes to get quick results. Yeah. He's not saying it's impossible for one. It's interesting,

Adam Thompson:

though, when you do read these books carefully, he very much points out if you want to use this stuff, to just basically sit on the couch and read books. That's cool, too. So he's kind of a little bit deeper than he appears on the surface already. And you're not, you know, he's worked pretty well. But now, so I have all that stuff done. Because I know if I've got emails to answer, I like things being resolved. It's like squared away would be the expression. And I like things being squared away. So I've even been that nut job that I've actually held up my hand of the screen to not see those emails, when I had to go look at something else. Yeah. And that doesn't stress me at all. But the moment I see something like inbox eight, and I do go to Inbox Zero, not every day, but maybe at least once a week, I process all the language is process emails, I process them, you know, and you have just some sort of system for processing them. So I do that, because

Daniel Franco:

I reckon I've ever seen Inbox Zero. No, that's brilliant.

Adam Thompson:

Well, here's what you need to start with. Make a folder called emails before today's date, move everything in there, and then start from Inbox Zero. That's just one of the techniques that you use. But the general philosophy is,

Daniel Franco:

I feel like I've just cleared my head just by

Adam Thompson:

So we'd say on relief. But there's little thinking. tricks, but what's the the intent or the strategy underneath it? The idea is to live life on my own terms. Yeah. Meaning I'll choose when I look at emails, thank you, not you. Yeah. And I don't mean that in a mean way. But to actually, like, I think it asks a question, Are you busy? And my answer is always exactly the right amount. Because I've got a wonderful person called Amanda, who does admin for me looks after my calendar. And she schedules me really well, so that I'm never rushed. I'm comfortable saying to people, I can help you. But I won't be able to start for two or three months. And I've learned over the years that I'm that means I never want to be the builder that takes on three houses, too many leaving people with a long list of stuff to be done. wondering when the train is going to show up that long maintenance list. Yeah, yeah. And so I'm very well, you'd have to do that with yourself. And you're doing your business development for this organization for synergy here. You'd have to make sure that you're not loading up the calendar at the point where you can let someone down for your consultanting. Yes, 100%. So I just do that for mine. And having Amanda really helps as well. Because that way, it's easy for me to think I'll just squeeze that in. And that'll always burn me on the end, cuz I'm not going to let down my family, or anything like that. So I'm going to be wearing that in terms of not sleeping or used to, but not sleeping with my family. Cuz then I'm a bloody grumpy dad. Yeah. Yeah. So

Daniel Franco:

I've got really into this. So yeah, I know, you have a very strict calendar regime, what is your what what model Do you follow,

Adam Thompson:

I was not really necessarily a model. It's just a matter of making sure there's gaps between things and just half an hour gap. 20 minutes while that not I'm not doing anything that sort of formal. But it's more just that idea of not taking on more load than I can. So when you get that feeling like you're trying to find a gap with something can fit, that means that you're trying too hard. But remember the structure of I don't know, I don't know if you'd even call it I do a business. As you know, I'm a business that I've had clients that I've worked with for seven or eight years now. So I'm a business in that sense. That's what one friend of mine said, You are a businessman, you've got customers, but on the other hand, it's just me, it's just you. So that means I'm not paying anyone for mortgage. All I need to pay is my monthly accounting software subscription, my editing software for my videos that I do, you know, bugger all Yeah, really. So. Yeah, I do. I wasn't when I first went out consulting that was um, when was that 2012. I was by myself. And then I joined in a partnership with a couple other people who've been around for about 12 or 13 years at that point. That was wonderful. That really helped me find myself as a consultant. Yeah, yeah, no, they were brilliant at what they did what what they did what they still, they still get, they're still consulting in the business, some one of the partners started adding in some really brilliant work in terms of global sustainability and that sort of stuff. And you feel really guilty saying, I'm not into that. But what I mean is, I'm not into that for a business, it would have hit a point where I was kind of phoning it in. So I sort of took a deep breath and said, Look, I'm gonna leave. And so that's why I went by how

Daniel Franco:

it was that sort of coach, mentor early on in your career,

Adam Thompson:

really valuable. But what I learned was the part about being yourself, and also the part about dealing with clients that if there's something you believe that they need to know, take a deep breath and tell them what they need to know. And I've found that to be so valuable, because otherwise you end up just complaining to other consultants while your clients are perfect. You know, what sort of decayed ways to go about doing things. So,

Daniel Franco:

yeah, it's the fear of not getting more work from him, isn't it? Yeah. But

Adam Thompson:

you know what, you'd think that people would respect people that tell them the truth? Well, it turns out that that is true. That is true. Yeah. I've discovered by being

Daniel Franco:

unless you're dealing with a really big egotistical, yeah. And aware and self aware.

Adam Thompson:

Well, that's what the video is, I started mocking around with videos last year, just for the sort of the fun of it. Because sticking iPhone with tripods, talking,

Daniel Franco:

they are pretty cool. Now.

Adam Thompson:

The, but then when COVID came along, didn't know what was going to happen. I thought, well, even if I don't do anything for a year, the minimum I can do is make some videos that might be informative and entertaining. Yeah. And I kind of like doing them. And then mostly a lot of my clients at the time, and still are often with, say, local government or disability or age care. So industries that weren't relying on revenue from people being out and about. So after sort of a three week, pause, everything just sort of launched. Should we just move that workshop online? usual? Yes. But I thought, I'll keep doing the videos. And I realized one bonus I get from the videos is if someone's wondering whether I can be useful to them, they can kind of watch me on the same on the video that I'm you know, in normal life. Yeah. And so if you think I'm a bit of a dick on the video, then that's good. Because that means that we it wasn't gonna work. Yeah. And if you think I might like this guy, then you probably will. Because that's kind of what I'm like I say

Daniel Franco:

that is a very good way of looking at it. Yeah, you're not trying to win work but you know you probably won't get on with the person anyway,

Adam Thompson:

I what I find is, as I look back over time, again, with COVID, I took the opportunity to look back over the people I've enjoyed working with the most over the years, and this a few common links, they're all reflective. So they're all up for saying that initial question of maybe the problem is me. And I really like that. They're all up for a laugh at the absurdity of it. That's another important thing, because it is kind of nuts, what happens in organizations, they're up for that. And they really enjoy being able to understand. So that idea of being able to draw something on a whiteboard often will stand side by side and say, This is what's going on here. We'll take the text from each other. Right, that's great. Let's go talk to everyone about this and see if we can make it make sense. Yeah. So that's kind of the common link between the people I work with. And then usually it's a combination of the businesses growing and starting to get a bit out of control. Or the business is big. And there's a feeling like it's running out of life, or there's something not quite right. And that's what I hope. And

Daniel Franco:

it's interesting work. Because if you are running a business by yourself, and it's only you, you know, like you said, You've got no one else's mortgages to pay, then you can be quite picky with your work. But for those who are starting out in the world, and trying to grab and grow a sustainable business grabbing and holding on to any sort of project is generally the way isn't it?

Adam Thompson:

Yeah. And I'd say just just a bit of gray area there. I'd be I'd be a toss up to say, Oh, you must stick exactly to your prince. Yeah. Because there is a point where you do need to establish yourself so we can

Daniel Franco:

get a bit of cash in the kitty. And then you can build on that

Adam Thompson:

little bit of that. I mean, everyone's got gray areas. But you might have certain things off the end of the gray area, you know, you wouldn't touch Yes. So

Daniel Franco:

that's happening, that you wouldn't work with an unaligned Yeah, potentially, you know, doing dumb things that are unethical,

Adam Thompson:

or that sort of thing. And with Yeah, yeah. But I mean, if there's any thing that's useful, it's if you've got six months to a year's worth of salary saved up. And you've got that saved up, if you've got enough context, that there'd be people willing to chat to you about what their issues are in the business. And of course, I'm assuming you've got some technical knowledge you can help him, then that's the prerequisites to get started. You don't need a brochure, or anything like that. I think it's just a matter of if people are willing to chat to you about what their issues are, and you can be valuable, then there's a chance you might be able to make a living doing this.

Daniel Franco:

So very good. You do a little bit of work with AHRI as well.

Adam Thompson:

Yeah, yeah. I'm the convener of the org design and development network. Yeah. So

Daniel Franco:

tell us a little bit more about AHRI in the work that you're doing. Yeah.

Adam Thompson:

So the Australian Human Resources Institute. And so the main thing I did when I first went out consulting, I discovered there was this thing called the old design and development network, and I thought that sounds What would I do or design that I met Michelle, from here and, and then I say, Can I join the committee it seems interesting So Michelle was in the committee was kind enough to bring me on I've just sort of been on it ever since. So I stayed on the committee, Tyson O'Connell, then convened the committee for a while, and he was fantastic at it. And then it sort of fell for me, naturally. And what we do is we find someone interesting to come in and give a talk or a discussion to a group of people in South Australia who are interested in org design and development, maybe three or four.

Daniel Franco:

Do you ever have those combos? So present? Yeah, present.

Adam Thompson:

I often think i reckon I've got some interesting stuff to tell the group. But there's a part being the convener is a bit [inaudible audio]

Daniel Franco:

to find this podcast and see if they want you to see that as a good marketing pitch for me.

Adam Thompson:

I've done one or two, I tried an experimental one where I, instead of doing the usual slides, I just drew pictures on my whiteboard, took photos of them and use that as my presentation. Now I think it was weird

Daniel Franco:

can't but it's, but isn't that your style? it's a bit quirky, not saying you're weird. And quirky is your style.

Adam Thompson:

I like to try it. I like to try things out now. Yeah, but remember, at the bottom is still fundamentals that are we being adult enough to get along with each other? Are we talking about the word? Yeah. Have we had a haven't had a crack at working out where we're going? So yeah, in sometimes I think maybe I'm quirky because in the end, I try to in the end, I just get it down to what's ultra normal. So in perhaps in the modern world, that is what we just to say, amongst all the fancy stuff which I respect by the way, I've got no issue when people say that's just the same stuff. repackage, because I'll say, Well, if it's selling good stuff, great. repackage, yeah. So I don't mind if I'm using agile methodologies is simply a repackaging of some things that occurred back in 1950. Because it's getting people to do stuff that suits them what they need. Yeah, that's great. But in the area, my work is about making it normal, or making it understandable again, yeah, we can fix it.

Daniel Franco:

Well, isn't that generally what everyone does with business is grab what someone else has done and repackage it and make it different in niche, the whole I

Adam Thompson:

don't think I've had an original idea. If I've got any originality, it's my way of explaining stuff. But I'm always very careful to say that, um, yeah, he's the source books. He's the stuff but a lot of people I work with, say, Have you read the book? And and they'll say, Well, yeah, well, why don't you just come and I'll buy you lunch, come and tell me about it. Yeah. And I kind of enjoy doing that as well. Because I, the more I can explain what I understand from a given book, the better I understand it.

Daniel Franco:

Yeah, there's something out there is a app now called blink list, which people saw that? Does that what it does blink list is it gives you I think, generally the 5 to 10 of the main points that each book and it's a 10 Minute. It's almost like a podcast or an audiobook, but it's shortened to 10 minutes. And this is the point. This is one example that was used. There's you go and run with it. So what's going on?

Adam Thompson:

I reckon the part that I like to edit is to say, and here's what this means for you. And here's what to do.

Daniel Franco:

Yeah, correct. Yeah. So the blink list app is is targeted at those two, it really just talks about the book, right. So you know, where your, I guess advantage comes from is that you know, the person that you're speaking to, and how it would apply to them?

Adam Thompson:

Yes, yeah. Every now and then I'll come across something new. And I've lucky enough to have a group of long term clients that I can say, hey, I've just discovered this article and this could apply to you. Let's have a talk.

Daniel Franco:

Yeah, look, I'm conscious of time. But I want to dive into that. Quickly. Before you are a big leader and reader, I should say and big learner as a leader, leader learner. A learner There you go. That's where the word lady comes from. You you you read you learn you absorb your knowledge base is substantial. From what we've heard so far, in this podcast. Do you have a methodology of reading do you pick up books read from cover to cover? Or do you pick up get information you need? Yeah, any of that

Adam Thompson:

one of the things I struggle with is that feeling of needing to complete. So I do struggle with the origin. I've got enough from this. I've got better over time. But I do read somewhat quickly. And I've been really gratified that over the last few years, it's been an especially with LinkedIn, you just get in touch with authors and talk to him. It's almost like what does this person reckon? You know, so. But that would be my general approach is I'm looking for I'm scanning, whatever the latest thing is, but often what I'll do is a reread of the classics. And in the classics, you'll find such fundamental stuff that can apply to everyone. Yeah, that can be quite useful. So but I still like, if I find someone who I've liked their work. So a couple of YouTube speeches, if I discover they've got a book, I still like to go to their book, because when I read the book, I just get this feeling of depth. And now I get it. And now I can apply it. Yeah, at least parts of that are gonna be relevant. So

Daniel Franco:

yeah, and you still read cover to cover then? Or do you just pick the information if it's good enough,

Adam Thompson:

the last thing I read cover to cover was a book what called Patterns of Strategy by Patrick Hoverstadt , and Lucy Loh. And that blew my mind, it made me realize that all the strategy work I've done today, which generally had got really good feedback could have been so much better. And so I started applying their method. I spoke to them a few times, I started using their method. And I'm actually going to do some formal training with them. So I want to go even deeper. Yeah. So that's an example where I come across something that makes me go whoa, this is great stuff. So my strategy work yeah. I think it's just become a lot sharper.

Daniel Franco:

Well, that's the beauty of consultancies. And it really and I'm not trying to plug consultants is that we are consistently looking for new knowledge and new ways of adding value to our clients isn't really that simple. Yeah, that's someone who is working within the business might not be doing that. And because of that drawn down or dragged down by the everyday running of that business. That's the beauty of consulting. Yeah. All right. So we are past that [inaudible audio]. We have a I have a few quickfire questions. I have you have not prepared for these, but one of them is about books. And we do talk a lot about about books. But if you were to recommend, I've got two questions about love seeing that you're very, very big reader. What is one that has had the most impact in your life?

Adam Thompson:

Yeah. stewardship by Peter Block in terms of work life? Yeah. Just brilliant. And Zen and the Art of motorcycle? My thought was?

Daniel Franco:

Yeah, we'll put them in the show notes. Now, number two, other than those two books, is there a book that you've recommended to leaders who are looking to improve this strategy, their cultures, there's something that you could put people onto?

Adam Thompson:

Yeah. I often recommend people read the goal by Eli goldratt. It's from way back in 1984 96. But I always say to people read it specifically with a view that this is not about manufacturing. So be consistently asking yourself, how would this apply to my organization? So convince yourself that it does, and your question is to work out how, yeah, and then the other one would be it's an audio book. And I think it's actually called spiral dynamics. And the author of the book Spiral dynamics, one of the co authors, Don Beck, he did a series of six lectures that he gave, and that is brilliant at understanding value systems and how things work and he's got such a southern draw in terms of American Yeah, you listen to it on two times speed, and it sounds normal. Okay, so what was spiral dynamics?

Daniel Franco:

spiral dynamics?

Adam Thompson:

Why the audiobook? the audiobook? is fed,

Daniel Franco:

you get on Audible. Yeah, yeah,

Adam Thompson:

I totally get that.

Daniel Franco:

All right. So if you had one superpower, what would it be?

Adam Thompson:

Well, this is one that I've often I love the film, Liar, liar. And another seems like a weird one. But for a start you just watching someone losing their mind? Yes. I've actually cut a few live clips into my video. Like, I like it that much. But if I could have the ability for everyone to say, what they really thinking inside a meeting, but I don't mean to be mean about it. But like, imagine people saying this. I feel obligated to support your project, but I really can't because I'm scared that if I do, my project won't get up. Yeah, like if people were actually forced to hear if we could say what we're really thinking. We'll just keep pretending that I like you but I really don't I'd rather be somewhere else. Arkan that'd be just amazing. If that is a superpower, we could make that occur. With everyone. I think once we got over the initial shock of it, I just wonder how much better we would go like to go extreme authenticity. Yeah. So of course, the shock might be too much to handle. Yeah. But I'd be

Daniel Franco:

what it is about delivery, isn't it? Yeah. I never thought of Liar Liar as a Marvel superhero.

Adam Thompson:

Just watch that point of view. Okay, what would happened? Because I think a lot of work meetings were trying to work through what's really going on. So I'd be fascinated to know in life, if we could just put on the table, what's really going on with all of our fears, and that sort of thing? how that would go. So that's one that often plays around in my mind. That's brilliant.

Daniel Franco:

So if you had access to a time machine, where would you go,

Adam Thompson:

I'd go back to the 50s. And the reason for that is, I'm fascinated whether life was easier or not in the 50s. And there's a couple of important things I want to put on there. If you were a straight white male, then life would have been easier for you in the 50 years. So be so what I'd like to see is how the world of work was was it more relaxed with it, you had faxes coming in, presumably, you have that know, that sort of thing. However, if you weren't a straight white male, then you are up against even harder headwinds than you are today into that sort of thing. So I'd be fascinated to go back to that era to see the pleasant aspects of life. But for the underlying almost horrible aspects, a lot of

Daniel Franco:

change things. So we

Adam Thompson:

observe, we don't like to think we would good. Would I like, Yeah, I don't know. Like, we all know that bad ships going on, you know, in the world. But are we actually out there protesting? So, you know, a lot the illusion that I would have, I would have had conversations, I think, but would they have been effective conversations? I don't know. Like I have brought people up on stuff that I haven't thought was right. I have done that in my life.

Daniel Franco:

But but in an era that in the year in an era that that is not arrived, but in the 50s it was probably more accepted

Adam Thompson:

will be fat, I mean, because I'd naturally start a lot I'll do the cooking Yeah, what would that be like if someone What do you mean you're doing the cooking? Yeah, like, well, I can't Yeah, yeah. So now but but that's one particular year that does fascinate me because of its so called illusion of the pleasant life, but I've got this feeling that it would have been so much, even more so well, hidden evil shit going on. Well,

Daniel Franco:

I think you nowadays it's the illusion of the simple life. The white male, straight white

Adam Thompson:

male. Yeah. And I'm very, very happy with that. The strongest tail winds of me my demographic has got the strongest tail wind into it. Yeah,

Daniel Franco:

I'm in the same boat. Yeah, absolutely. And last one, just to finish off and round off at. You are dad.

Adam Thompson:

So yes.

Daniel Franco:

I love a good dad joke. Do you have any good dad jokes you could share?

Adam Thompson:

Oh, let me think a good, good dad joke. Yeah, yeah. I don't know if it counts s a dad joke or not. But if o e of my favorites is a horrible joke of the dead joke, okay. Hor e walks into a bar. bartender says Why the long face? horses. t's so I can eat the prairie rasses while also being aware

Daniel Franco:

Like he got a laugh coming from the room. You've obviously done well, well done. Thank you very much, Adam, for coming on.

Adam Thompson:

really a pleasure.

Daniel Franco:

podcast. It's been Yeah, it's been great.

Unknown:

Thank you.

Daniel Franco:

I've learned lots in the hour. So thank you very much. Where do we find you? How do we get in contact with you?

Adam Thompson:

Sure. I put my videos up on LinkedIn every week for people who want and each video has an article that goes along with it. So my blog, which I started back when I was working in a salary job is called Zen organisations just zenorganisations, one word.com. And people can sign up there. And now that way, they'll get the video and the article to their inbox every week. Otherwise, LinkedIn, my business is called Thompson Organizations. And so my website is Thompson organizations.com.au. But mainly just connected with me via my blog or on LinkedIn perfectly, probably the best way to get here. Yeah,

Daniel Franco:

thank you very much again. We'll have to have you back on again. That'd be a pleasure at some point. Yeah. Right. Thank you very much. And that's us, Sonia cheese.

Adam Thompson:

Thank you.

Synergy IQ:

Thank you once again for joining us here at creating synergy. It's been great spending this time with you. Please jump on to the Synergy IQ Facebook and LinkedIn page where the discussion continues after the show. join our mailing list so you'll know what's happening next at Synergy iq.com.au. And of course, don't forget to subscribe to this podcast. And if you really enjoyed it, please share it with your friends.