Ben Smit is an entrepreneur and highly skilled at growing scale-up companies and leveraging technology to solve human problems, with a focus on engaging team members to own and advocate the improvement process. He is a co-founder and CEO of Teamgage, software that enables team collaboration, wellbeing, and continuous improvement. The system measures behaviours and sentiment aligned to the strategy of the organisation and drives teams and managers to action their own improvements in real-time. Ben and Teamgage are taking on the worldwide market, and it has grown to service clients across Australia, Asia Pacific and North America.
In today's episode, Ben spoke about his entrepreneurship journey, going into business with his wife Noelle, scaling the business across the world, the highs and lows of running your own business and how Teamgage's software adds value to companies and teams, helping to create a culture of high performance through technology.
Where to find Ben Smit:
Ben's LinkedIn
Teamgage's website
Books mentioned in this episode:
Join the conversation on Synergy IQ LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram (@synergyiq) and please support other leaders by liking, subscribing and sharing this podcast.
Access SynergyIQ Website to get to know more about us.
Say hello to our host Daniel on LinkedIn.
Ben Smit is an entrepreneur and highly skilled at growing scale-up companies and leveraging technology to solve human problems, with a focus on engaging team members to own and advocate the improvement process. He is a co-founder and CEO of Teamgage, software that enables team collaboration, wellbeing, and continuous improvement. The system measures behaviours and sentiment aligned to the strategy of the organisation and drives teams and managers to action their own improvements in real-time. Ben and Teamgage are taking on the worldwide market, and it has grown to service clients across Australia, Asia Pacific and North America.
In today's episode, Ben spoke about his entrepreneurship journey, going into business with his wife Noelle, scaling the business across the world, the highs and lows of running your own business and how Teamgage's software adds value to companies and teams, helping to create a culture of high performance through technology.
Where to find Ben Smit:
Ben's LinkedIn
Teamgage's website
Books mentioned in this episode:
Join the conversation on Synergy IQ LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram (@synergyiq) and please support other leaders by liking, subscribing and sharing this podcast.
Access SynergyIQ Website to get to know more about us.
Say hello to our host Daniel on LinkedIn.
Welcome to creating synergy where we explore what it takes to transform. We are powered by Synergy IQ. Our mission is to help leaders create world class businesses where people are safe, valued, inspired and fulfilled. We can only do this with our amazing community. So thank you for listening.
Daniel Franco:Hi there synergizes and welcome back to another episode on the creating synergy podcast. Today we have a really fantastic chat to entrepreneur Ben Smit, who is the co founder and CEO of a company called Teamgage , teamgage is a software for business that enables team collaboration, wellbeing and continuous improvement. The system measures behaviors and sentiment aligned to the strategy of an organization and drives teams and managers to action their own improvements in real time from the ground up, Ben and teamgage to taking on the worldwide market, and it has grown to service clients across Australia, the Asia Pacific and North America. With over 15 years experience in leading product design and development teams as well as custom system implementations in ASX 100 and fortune 500 companies. Ben has cultivated superhuman abilities and include leveraging technology to solve human problems and the ability to scale up companies. He believes that the key to motivating team members is for them to own and advocate the improvement process. Just this week, Ben was selected as one of South Australia's top business people in in Daly 40 under 40 Awards. Ben was one of the final 40 to be selected from over 600 referrals and 200 nominations. A really, really great achievement Ben. It was such a great chat. We spoke about a lot of topics ranging from going into business with his wife in the world, to scaling the business across the world, and the highs and lows of being an entrepreneur. I thoroughly enjoyed this podcast and I know you will to. Enjoy. Very good. Welcome back to The creating synergy podcast. My name is Daniel Franco, your host and today we have Ben Smit, Director at teamgage. How are you, Ben?
Ben Smit:I'm really good. Thanks for having me.
Daniel Franco:We're very good. Thank you for being here. We're very excited about having you follow your company very closely. So thanks again.
Ben Smit:Fantastic.
Daniel Franco:We're gonna get into we're gonna just dive straight into it. I'm in love with All Things entrepreneurship, but I want to ask you a few questions about your background where you came from your journey to where you are today. You are an entrepreneur at heart, you've got to jump to startups in code 360, which offers the uni one program and teamgage, which is a software that enables businesses to improve their workplace for their culture, their well being their engagement. Can you tell me the journey on how you came across all can you came to startup? Both businesses?
Ben Smit:Yeah, absolutely. So I think entrepreneurs and sort of started for me earlier than that. I, I started as a sort of older teenager, it was an eBay store. And that sort of was my first entry into it. We got to the point where we had pallets being delivered to our our lounge room at home. And that was when what we what were you selling? Oh, we were selling IV equipment mainly. So you know, like home theater speakers and bits and pieces in the tech world. Yeah, I love tinkering with tech from an early age. So yeah, that's kind of like way back when but in terms of, you know, getting into into software and, and I was just interested in it generally to begin with. So I was tinkering around and trying to understand how how systems got built. And, you know, a lot of coding patterns have changed since then. But it was a really interesting time where, you know, the internet was coming alive and, and people were actually doing things in a different way. And so that's kind of how I started in an interest in the technology. But you know, in terms of that entrepreneurial part, I think I was always interested in in creating something that was used by people you know, that that idea of making something better as well. You know, one of my really keen drivers is annoys my wife endlessly is that you know, you see a problem I guess I could make this better. Yeah, we can fix this.
Daniel Franco:What Yeah, why does it need to be that way?
Ben Smit:Yeah, exactly. Right. And sometimes she's like, look, you've just got to let this one go. We've already got two businesses. And you know, she's she's right. But I think that that drive initially is you know, is something that led to where we are today. So you know, my the co 360 and uni one as a as a product actually came out of my final year at uni. There was a problem that was you know, very selfishly, I wanted to get some cheap textbooks, and the secondhand textbook service had been shut down with voluntary Student Union fees. So of course, you know went from you must pay $200 a year to the union to you can volunteer the payment to the union. And you can imagine how many students took that off, right? So a lot of those services, you know, just just disappeared. And I, I approached the union and said, Hey, I think like, I'd like this to come back. And I think you could actually potentially make a bit of commission on it to fund some of your services. So I had to do a project anyway. And I thought, well, let's let's make this something that we actually do. I don't want it to be theoretical. So that the project part we sort of got out the way with planning and then actually went and built it. So yeah, it all started as a second hand textbook module, which we don't even offer anymore, you know, time, but that was kind of, you know, the first software as a service type platform. And we build it out from there. So you have the skills to build it yourself. Yeah. Well, I, you know, let's say I did, I don't do a lot of hands on development work anymore. But, but I've got an amazing team around me that does that. But that was where I started. Yeah.
Daniel Franco:Brilliant. So you've got an understanding of the basic fundamentals.
Ben Smit:Yeah, yeah, I think and look at it lines up with the degree I did, I was looking at management information systems. And I was always interested in how those, you know, larger systems interacted with organizations and their people. But at the same time, you know, that the team gage came, came a bit later, but it was, it was this niggling sort of idea in the back of my head. And actually, a lot of us in the team, same where we'd had these corporate experiences, and we'd heard of people with corporate experiences having these issues at particularly at a team level and the dynamics there, you know, lots of great organizations with great people that are dysfunctional for one reason or another. Yes, I see that every day. Yeah, absolutely. Right. And, and it's so easy to fall into that trap, you know, I think, you know, stats, around 80% of people who leave a job could have stayed through some kind of manager action. Correct. So, and I think that's particularly part of the Australian culture is people are more comfortable just going and getting a job elsewhere than they are with addressing what could be a minor issue. So that was something that was, you know, in the back of our heads for a while, and we were building anyone, and it got to a point where it was like, now we really want to do something here, I want to start tinkering with it. And, you know, built an early prototype, which was, which we launched in the US, funny enough, we had a connection there. And we thought, alright, well, we'll You know, we've we've got this opportunity, let's let's give it a go. We put a beta together, after a lot of research into the industry and how people work and how teams work and all that good stuff. And it was an abysmal failure. Yeah, they rang us, you know, a couple of weeks later and said, You need to take this off our computers. That's terrible.
Daniel Franco:It's, it's shutting him down.
Ben Smit:Yeah. Well, it was just they just it was annoying. It wasn't in that flow. It wasn't right. You know, we had all those lessons to learn.
Daniel Franco:Yeah. But what an amazing opportunity and lessons to learn.
Ben Smit:Yeah,
Daniel Franco:I guess, for the next part of your, your, your journey?
Ben Smit:Absolutely. And I think, you know, that taught us a lot, we went back to the drawing board and really learned a lesson that I think I've learned a number of times, which is go and talk to your customer earlier, before you even really started building you need to go and you know, give put put something in front of them as a prototype or, you know, now you've got great tools like envision, or those sorts of things where you can mark things up, but you know, it's that constant, default behavior of an entrepreneur is just kind of build it first, and then go to the customer. So that was a valuable learning. And we went went back to the drawing board. And obviously, we've got the product that we have today, which which is much more well received.
Daniel Franco:Yeah Absolutely. The value of r&d is, is unprecedented isn't really,
Ben Smit:absolutely. And I think that comes down to the value of a bootstrap company as well. Not you know, I don't think there's one right path for any particular or generically for companies to go down. And you know, lots of companies need to raise money, lots of companies do raise money, and there's a lot of benefit benefited that too. But for us bootstrapping, it was always about, well, how are we going to grow? How are we going to get our next developer or, you know, next team member, it has to be through customers, right, the customer has to be willing to pay for this. So that made us really sharp on what they needed early on.
Daniel Franco:Perfect, great. So before we get into the deep dive of the team gauge, which I want to learn a little bit more about, you started both businesses with Noel, your wife.
Ben Smit:So you know, I was very, very patient with me with the first time around. She was she was employed when I decided to branch out and start code 360 and she came then across I think it was a year or two in once we could kind of afford to have both of us aboard. So yeah, she in many ways that helped us get started. Yes. And then yeah, obviously from day one with with Tango. She was she was there as well.
Daniel Franco:So you're brave man going into business with your lifelong partner, your wife. Beautiful, Noel. Yeah. My wife and I have often spoken about how fantastic and how much value she would add to our business. But then we laugh about it and say there's no way that's ever gonna happen. Because we would absolutely kill each other. Yeah, it Do you? Do you talk this business life like you have your children?
Ben Smit:Yes, yeah, we've got a daughter. And yes, we do talk a lot about it. Yeah, look, it's it's funny as it's definitely not for everyone. Yeah, and I think there's an adjustment period, there's no doubt about that, you've got to then find ways to separate in other areas, like have your own hobbies, or, you know, we both played sport for a number of years. And that really helped we had our own teams and that we go off and do other things with. But look, it's also really potentially very powerful, you know, that, you know, they talk about some investors not liking, you know, married couples as, as founders. And to me, it's like, but who is more invested to make sure it works than America. You know, business partners can come and go, and you can have a falling out. But you really want to make it work if you're if you're in it together. So yeah, and that's been great. Like we, I think when when our daughter came came around, we help her she's six now. So I think that changed our behavior a little bit. We had to kind of turn off after hours a bit and be a family. But before that, it was you know, every every meal time we'll go for a walk whatever we were just talking about, but it was we wanted to write Yeah,
Daniel Franco:it was what becomes life, everyone. This is work life balance. I wouldn't say fallacy, but there's a work life balance, talk out there. And I think when you are an entrepreneur, it just becomes life. Work as part of life. And
Ben Smit:yeah, balance is different for everyone. Well, I think that's really key. You know, there's not one right or wrong answer there. As long as you're mindful of it. Yeah. So
Daniel Franco:Does she love getting in the bit in the office in your daughter? I'm talking about getting in the office in and seeing where mom and dad work every day. And let's get involved in what they're talking about all night.
Ben Smit:Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. She loves coming in. And Dan, particularly here at stone and chalk. In a lot of 14. It's a lot of fun. There's a lot of things going on as 3d printing down. Old contracts. I
Daniel Franco:spy stuff I'm obsessed with. I feel like a kid in the candy shop here as well.
Ben Smit:Yeah, absolutely.
Daniel Franco:So who's the face of the company? Yourself or Noel
Ben Smit:yeah. That's, it really depends on what's going on? Yeah, we're not. It's funny, because we're really not people who like to be in the spotlight. And most of the time, we much prefer to be going and working on strategy somewhere. So sometimes we sort of, you know, draw a lot on that. It's like, it's definitely our turn this time. But, you know, it's whatever we need it,
Daniel Franco:whoever it is. Yes. You mentioned that you started in the US. We have your first beta testing was in the US. There is. I've read that you met fellow Australian entrepreneurs, Patrick Lewin, who was the CEO of 99. designs. Yep. And Gary Smith is the founder of zoom systems. Yes. And you said they were a big inspiration to you starting to engage. Can you talk more about that? What what that inspiration was and what you actually learned from them?
Ben Smit:Yeah, absolutely. So we actually were very lucky. We went on a sort of sports and tech tour of in the US in California [inaudible audio]. Yeah, that's a good question. Now I'm going to say 20, early teens, 20, something 2013, something like that. And that was really, it was fantastic. Because Noel and I are both big basketball fans. And yeah, and so we got to go to, you know, the training facilities for the warriors and, and the Lakers and got to a couple of games, and it was sort of all parties tour, but the rest of it was going and seeing these companies operating and chatting with, you know, some of these these bigwigs there. So yeah. So we we spoke to together and Patrick and like, it was just, it was fantastic to see those companies that were sort of ahead of us down that track. Yeah, just understanding what we could get to what we could achieve what other markets were like. So from that point of view, and I've run into Gao A few years later, a couple of other things as well. And it's just kind of great to see their progress and understand. You know, how that how Australians can be heavy hitters as well.
Daniel Franco:Yeah, absolutely. Is there any particular takeaway, though, that you, you remember thinking? I want that for us?
Ben Smit:Yeah. You know, I think it was more just taking a tour of their offices and understanding, you know, that the size of the operation, how they'd grown, I think for me, like we walked into, you know, some of the rooms where there was the development teams, and they had the big status boards on the wall. You know, it was like, at the time we were sort of, you know, in some tiny office with with nothing, and just kind of understanding what we could grow to and how impactful we could be, you know, hearing a number There's like this, this many millions of people are on the platform and, and just many people, you know, use our machines or whatever it was, it was really inspirational.
Daniel Franco:It's sometimes your brain puts a limit on what you actually think is achievable. And so you see, that's why people say get a mentor, get someone who's doing it get someone who folk shadow, someone who is already succeeding, is because it just opens your mind to a whole new universe, I guess of opportunity.
Ben Smit:Yeah. Which reminds me of a book, and I'm not going to remember the title, but it was something along the lines of taxing everything. I love that idea. Because it's like, if you're going to go to the effort, you may as well make it bigger. Because otherwise, you know, there's no point in attacking a $10 million market because you're gonna get 90% of that market, you're probably not right. So you know, you when you're when you're gonna go and set your mind to something, just think a little bit larger. Yeah,
Daniel Franco:is that a great set of Grant Cardone is that he might be that you find out after and we'll put it in the show notes. If you can get onto that. You go on and has started then same guy, she met these founders growing team guys, you will found this some inspiration growing, engaged, there's been talk of some Rocky, Rocky Road, I guess, some ups and downs and, and the upside downs of entrepreneurship and starting your own business. Can you elaborate on some of the greatest learnings that you may have? in those early years? Obviously, the beta stuff was was was amazing, but anything from from the actual growth? perspective?
Ben Smit:Yeah, absolutely. So I guess as a as a bit of background, really what team gage is trying to do, the problem that we're trying to solve is that I think, you know, engagement, particularly at the team level, but but even across the organization has been a bit abstract and top down. So you know, it's generally up to executives to push culture from the top, it ends up as a plaque on the wall that you know, HR is kind of responsible for, but at the team level is a bit of a nod to the wall, and then they get on with their day, right. And we've seen some pretty high profile examples of companies who say their values are one thing, but then behave in another way. And I won't single any out. But you know, there's probably some, some royal commission that you could go to, but you know, and that really is, in all those situations, the, it's not that they don't have a culture, it's that their culture and their values are not what they've written down. Okay, so if if you say you're your culture, and your values are to look after the customer, but all of your strategies and goals are around revenue, then your behavior is actually going to be about revenue. So you know, that and that's really interesting for us, you know, I, I always am a bit cautious when I hear founders talking about their reason for starting a business is to make money, or you know, just just get get as much, you know, many deals as we can in the door. It's not the core of what you should be aiming for. It's a byproduct of a good idea, right? And execution, because I think that's probably 90% of it.
Daniel Franco:What's the old saying, if you add value to the world, the world will add value back to your your life, I guess isn't Yeah, you give you you get in return for that giving?
Ben Smit:Yeah, I agree. And I think that, that that's really so our driver is really about getting those people who are in positions where they're unhappy because of reasons that can be solved, making their experience better. And the byproducts of that are incredible in terms of performance for the organization. It's It's obvious, right? So a really, highly performing engaged team that's getting rid of barriers to performance is just going to completely outdo those teams that never talk about the big issues and don't solve their problems. I always talk about it in terms of like, there's two places that you can work out, there's a place that says, that's the way it's always been, and everyone just kind of that's their answer to problems. And then there's the side that says, How can we make it better? That's that's the difference, right? And that's really what we're here to solve. So from that perspective, it's it's trying to get that bottom up. But going back to your question, I think that's, that's not without challenges, right? So for starters, we have to break the way organizations Think about this. So you know, still get a lot of customers who think of us as a measuring tool, first and foremost, and we're like, No, no, we're an improvement tool. First and foremost, you need to measure to improve. But that continuous improvement cycle that that gets embedded at the team level is something that we've got to work really hard in the design of the product to to convey to the end users. So that's probably one of our biggest challenges is changing behaviors, and doing it in an automated way. Because it's not scalable otherwise, right? We can send a consultant to every team, every customer, yeah, but we can't scale effectively at our price point to do that. And so you know, that's, that's one of those things and it comes back to speaking to the customer quicker and now, you know, one of the things we really want Want to hone in on his measuring behaviors as well. So we don't want to make assumptions as to how they use the product, we want to measure it and make sure we understand how they use the product, and then make some tweaks to push that in the right direction. But in terms of other challenges, I mean, you know, I think there's every day is a new thing, when particularly when you're growing, you know, you know, systems that worked when you had three or five people don't work when you have 10. Yeah. So one of my big sort of learnings and things I tell to other founders now is, be be really ready to have a system for a season and then break that system and never use it again and replace it. Because we have this real fallacy around sunken costs, right? And you've you've seen this before, where, you know, big entity or a government or something, tries to put a system in place, it's been $100 million on it, and it's a complete failure. And then they're presented with two options, we can spend another 100 million dollars to fix it. Or we can spend $50 million on another system. That will probably work better. Yeah, they will nine times out of 10 invest the extra 100 million because of sunken costs, right? No, we've invested in it. Yeah.
Daniel Franco:It's that's just human behavior. Isn't it? Easy. Once you've spent you validate the money that you've spent once you've spent it?
Ben Smit:Yeah, exactly. So and and part of that is also culturally of if if you if you admit to fate, you've got a failure. Absolutely. And that's really the anti, you know, pattern of what we want with continuous improvement. I want to be able to stand up and say, Hey, guys, good news. I failed last week. Here's what I learned. And here's what we're going to try next week. Correct. You know, that that person that's put in a large project that's failed, probably has battle scars and lessons that make them better at it next time. But instead, we go well, they're tainted. Now we need to bring someone else in here can do it first time. Yeah, so that comes down to leadership.
Daniel Franco:Yeah, understanding that, you know, you're not going to get everything right. The first go? Yep. It doesn't mean, you can't say there's a common, I believe there's a common misconception and more innovation actually means you talk about values and people looking at the wall and all that sort of stuff. Yeah. People look at the values on the wall, and they'll see respect. And they'll see, you know, the same trustworthy transparency or the same, but the same five values that you see in every business that's just on the wall. And like you said, People walk past and, and don't even notice that. Yeah, those values, I believe, and we believe, I guess with Synergy IQ is they should just be human behavior. You should just be honest, yeah. should just be transparent. Yeah. You know, we understand that the valuable, but innovation is one that often I believe gets confused. And without going down a rabbit hole. People believe that innovation is creating a new widget. Yeah, creating something new and outstanding. Innovation in my eyes can be just looking at something differently, just tweaking what we've already got in just making it better upgrading, redesigning, working with what we've got, and improving it. So yeah, this innovation is definitely and continuous improvement is something that I believe people have misconception about.
Ben Smit:Yeah, I look, I think we you know, as humans, the really, the only way we innovate is to build on top of what we already know. A lot of that is just connecting to concepts from different areas and then turning it into something new. But but totally agree. And you know, for us, I think we we would consider ourselves almost more of a process innovation rather than a technology innovation. The technology enables us to scale that process out. But but it is very incremental. You know, you don't it's the same with people outside of, of the startup industry, or even inside it, frankly, will often talk about overnight successes, right? And really, it's the fallacy of the 10 year.
Daniel Franco:So you're often rewarded in public for the 10 years you've done in private.
Ben Smit:Yeah, exactly. It's like, Oh, you know, and as a as an early founder, I'll guarantee you, I would have been guilty of it. It's like it's gonna it's gonna happen next week, right, we're gonna get this massive windfall, because that's what happens, right? These startups, they do these crazy things. And then three weeks later, they're a huge success. Yeah. Not understanding that there's so much iteration before that happens and so much learning and failing. And as you said, the innovation in the definition that you've given it to get to that outcome.
Daniel Franco:Team gauge as a product, off the shelf, what are we getting?
Ben Smit:Yeah. So it really comes down to, as I said, that process innovation. So what we're trying to actually do is give the teams within an organization, a continuous improvement mindset, and a tool to make sure it's embedded properly. Right. So at its at its base. If you've got 10,000 employees, there's just no way even if you send an army of HR people out to help but you're going to be able to top down make them better right it's it's so much more effective and so much easier to have them trying to make themselves better and it also gives them more meaning in their work right if they have a bit of ownership over that improvement cycle and there's that really annoying operational thing that's in the way for example and they can actually be empowered to fix it themselves it helps with engagement it helps with performance it helps with the organization as a whole and then you're changing the role of of team leaders and managers as well then they become facilitators they become coaches right so it's it's we're having this problem how can i help unblock that for you rather than you know having to kind of be on top and micromanaging everything i mean well let's do it this way let's do it that way i talk a lot about principles versus rules so you can chuck in a bunch of rules but what you end up finding is that people gamify around it yeah right so it's like and you get these weird and wonderful outcomes it's like how did this happen you know whereas if you put in principles instead people understand the meaning of what you're trying to achieve and it's much harder to sort of break exactly the
Daniel Franco:one thing i'm interested in is i'm a rural people person i love conversation or communication face to face chat i guess which is why we have a podcast right there's there's team gauge encouraged face to face conversation or is it i'm going to write my problem on the screen on the computer
Ben Smit:yeah okay yeah that's a really good way so no it's you know we i guess in terms of how the cycle works we do gather you know that that measure phase is gathering some feedback from the teams on a range of areas normally strategically aligned to what they're trying to try to actually do so we don't we don't like really fluffy metrics because they're hard to improve on and hard to talk about but we love actionable metrics and those can feed up to the sort of high level strategy and culture stuff but really you know that that initial submission is we call that the conversation starter it's not like you know i'm going to tell you all my problems and deal with it for me right it's it's what are the conversations that we can start as a team so it could be you know that sort of start stop keep style methodology or you know what can we try those sort of posing questions right so what if we did this or i'm finding this is getting in my way is there an alternative what are those sparks of conversation so we get together and then we can see in those those metrics as a team where do we sit are we are we very you know diverse are we are we what's the spread on that as well because that's really interesting so if you've got a simple example if you're if you're looking at workload and you've got two two groups that are polar opposite some of them really under works i'm really overwhelmed you know it'd be really easy to look at that number and just go okay overall we're okay because we're somewhere in the middle but actually we have a distribution problem right so operationally we start talking about how do we how do we fix that yeah but yeah it's then up to the teams to get together and go okay we seem to have a theme around this what are the actions that we can go and put in place and that's where the sort of team meeting element comes in obviously with with the pandemic some of that has been virtual meetings but that's fine we can do that as well but either way it's getting together and look even for some distributed remote teams they can still do that via another tool so collaborating in microsoft teams or a slack or whatever but it's really about starting the conversation having a measuring point to base your opinions because that's the other thing a lot of teams just kind of look at each other put their finger in the air and go yeah i think it's that way yeah but actually no we can look at something tangible and say it's this way now how can we make it you know 5% better brilliant
Daniel Franco:what so what are some of those actionable items that you talk about can you elaborate on those a little more there is a different for every team
Ben Smit:it is very different for every team so we obviously have a range of metrics that we suggest but we really want the the organization's and their teams to own what they're looking at because i think it provides a lot more value to them but you know everything from you know if you're in in manufacturing or mining and you want to look at safety that's going to be a big deal for you right so you know are we actually are we actually following the principles around that are there any suggestions to improve it have you seen things that that we need to fix and that that's really tangible right that means something because if you if you can address those issues you're potentially saving lives right and everyone wants to come back to their families so that that's really important but then you know so that you've got you know we talk about innovation so technology companies particularly say they want to innovate but then unless they're measuring have i actually done it in the last a week or two it's sort of that thing at the bottom of the list because it's generally not part of the kpi you know we're looking at something else but if you're looking every week for example and saying well reflecting in the last week how much was i involved in an innovation project or something around there and you're getting low scores the actions that come out of that are really basic things like well let's allocate time for it let's have a measurement of it let's do something else but you know we've seen all kinds of things from you know workloads a really interesting one as well we've seen big changes in the perception of workload without changing the workload is a really good unware so you just essentially you put a better system in place that makes it feel more manageable yeah a lot of that thing around workload is i'm juggling a lot at once it's overwhelming yeah exactly whereas if we can if we can calm that down by having a system in place whatever that is
Daniel Franco:well that's the beauty there's a it's visible on the screen you can actually it breaks it down for you
Ben Smit:yeah and i think that half the battle is just having something in front of you to point out and go oh there's a problem that we didn't know about a ploy that some of us knew about but it wasn't spreading
Daniel Franco:yeah it was in our heads now it's now it's shared with the team
Ben Smit:yep and i think for senior leaders that's really valuable as well because they can look across all these teams find pockets of teams that are doing really well and then spread their ideas you know across the organization so rather than being top down it's kind of horizontal and i think that can be really powerful as well
Daniel Franco:you talk about leaders and leadership and new said cultures gently push from the top down this is giving the opportunity for the greater team to almost push up yet is it i'm really interested is it pointing the finger at some less less effective leaders
Ben Smit:look i think there will be scenarios where it reveals a truth that's already been there
Daniel Franco:yeah
Ben Smit:and i think the you know the one thing we encourage our our customers on this is you don't want to be head in the sand about this right if you do have a particular team that's struggling better to know it now before it blows up in 12 months and something serious happens so look at your canvas some of that's also just around the managers being equipped right it may not be that they're a bad manager it may just be that they don't have that experience yet or they just needed a little tweak to change the way they go about managing the team so it's as much about supporting them as it is about you know discovering them
Daniel Franco:brilliant the but it does come back to that gallup statistic that you mentioned before which is 80% of people leave as a result of poor leadership yeah as opposed to not liking the job or money elsewhere or whatever it might be
Ben Smit:yeah
Daniel Franco:what i'm really interested in is this this program team gauges help leaders improve their performance
Ben Smit:yeah and a lot of ways i think it gives them permission to work on issues that they were potentially afraid to work on beforehand i think when when the the organization is saying go and do this process we give you permission to do this and it's a little bit scary the first time because you're not sure what the team's gonna say but if you if you can put that hat on of being facilitator it's not a scary that right it's all of a sudden about alright help me get to the point that you want to get to to the place that we all want to operate at because generally speaking most people are really reasonable about about how they want to run right it's it's rarer than you think to have an employee that's like i expect the earth from you and and you should do it and otherwise i'm not happy right and we've all seen oh yeah there's an element of it actually the interesting thing about doing this as a group and measuring it is that you see outliers as well yeah so all of a sudden it's like well it's not just the loudest voice we can see the spread we can see it actually there's an outlier here but everyone else is fairly aligned on what they want to do that can be a little bit self correcting as well which which is interesting but yeah a lot of that is about it's now on us as a team to get this right and i'm going to facilitate and help you with that i think that's a much stronger outcome
Daniel Franco:oh we got some new to a business that i use to engage a walk in what's my expectation to you what's the expectation of the business considering that they're fully invested yeah what's the expectation of that new user that's coming into an existing team yeah where do they get involved how do they understand or get up to speed is yes
Ben Smit:i can new team later i just came in a team
Daniel Franco:it just any random worker
Ben Smit:no yeah okay well look if it's done right they'll actually fall into the culture that's already there around that iterative cycle so you know certainly as a team member and we have it in ourselves we use it internally so we see that you know first week they're here it's like hey we've got this meeting that's happening this friday you're gonna get an email about it these are the things that we're looking at you're gonna see it in action so you know feel free to put in any any suggestion was really like suggestions early on too because it tells us is our onboarding process good like that you only get that limited chance to get an outside perspective with someone that starts new then they become part of the bureau so yeah but and and you know the number of times i without fail i mean at least in the last 10 that i can remember us hiring they all say the next week wow that that meeting was amazing never experienced it like that before and not because you know just because we're hyping the product but because it's more about oh i can see things aren't going to ballooning out of control in this team we're going to address issues as they arise and we're going to try and better ourselves every week so really i think they just need to experience it and they'll get they'll fall into that culture if it's done right for a leader i think you know there's there's some sort of onboarding stuff that we do at our end to try and help with that but and again hopefully if that team has already been using it and they've got a new team leader the team will actually draw them into that process as well because there's they're used to working in that way now of continuous improvement
Daniel Franco:brilliant what i love about it is the transparency there's you know if you've read the book ray dalio his principles you know reading radical transparency yep there's also kim scott's book radical candor these sorts of methodologies are built into the into the program which we know absolutely work so kudos
Ben Smit:yeah well done yeah look i am raised raised because a really interesting one is and it's not it's not every organization that could one to one be rated as they're doing a presentation i think that's like on the extreme end i was quite interested yeah that concept but you know they they themselves admit that it's also about hiring the people that can handle that i think yeah what we've done is kind of brought an element of transparency to to companies that aren't quite that extreme where people are still more comfortable so the initial submission process is anonymized but at the team level we can own that improvement cycle and i think that's that's a good balance for those other companies yeah
Daniel Franco:you're talking one of the a multi billion dollar company that has investment for years so yeah you're not everyone's there
Ben Smit:yeah it's a unique environment that they've created and really interesting i enjoyed that
Daniel Franco:it's a great book so you've recently just been awarded $350,000 for research and development to expand and go overseas so well done
Ben Smit:yeah thank you very much
Daniel Franco:can you tell us a little bit more about that process how that came about and what you plan on doing
Ben Smit:yeah absolutely so we that was a south australian state government initiative and so that was an investment that's that's matched with tractive ventures who we've worked with who have a unique model as well which you can go look up or we can talk
Daniel Franco:was it an interactive ventures record
Ben Smit:yeah so but but essentially that that project is for us to expand internationally as you said so we've got a lot of work to do in terms of our technical implementations scaling our infrastructure to be a little bit more decentralized you know lots of data requirements for specific regions and and those sorts of good things as well as tackling tackling the differences in in culture as well so in terms of you know languages and even even you know interesting things around the way different cultures approach hierarchies and and improvement cycles so you know one of the things we know is that this you know being honest about what things aren't working is difficult in some cultures because they they can you know connect their response with how good of an employee they are so that's that's really interesting thing that's kind of down the track for us but i think in this first stage is really more about your reading reading the product and our infrastructure and and you know the the data spread issues to be ready for those other markets so it's exciting times i think you know it's going to be a lot of work to be done on the the sales side as well expanding that and and looking at some partnership opportunities that sort of thing
Daniel Franco:so i was asking the us is that where you're headed is that is that generally the first stop or are you planning on breaking everywhere
Ben Smit:but yeah look it's an interesting one and i think we're still in the throes of betting all that down but actually other markets like singapore for example are quite interesting to us because you know similar timezones not as not as far distance wise you know still sharing a lot of the cultural elements that we can bring
Daniel Franco:just start there straightaway yeah maybe
Ben Smit:yeah so those sorts of markets are joining us but yeah it looks certainly the us is a really significant market is some this You know, the turmoil, shall we say, there at the moment? We're, you know, keeping an eye on that. But, but really, you know, it's it's going to be about where we feel we can leverage our existing customers, we have a lot of multinational customers now who, who want to use us in different regions as well. So that's a nice soft landing for us. And I think that'll play a role. And I think partnerships will be the other one where, you know, it's going to be a lot easier for us to scale our capabilities if we can partner with some some other regions, in other regions. Yeah, that's
Daniel Franco:fantastic. So you touched on turmoil at the moment in the world of COVID? Yeah. 19, which is, is that hampering your ability with the travel restrictions, everything like those that hampering your ability to take the product overseas?
Ben Smit:Look, I think it's, it's, it's sort of helped and hurt at the same time, I think, you know, initially, when we were all locked down, we had a really keen interest from from new customers and, and deals that were in our pipeline went faster, because every
Daniel Franco:thing was going remote. And they wanted to
Ben Smit:Yeah, I think they needed a way to stay connected with their teams. And obviously, we were a good option for that, and, and a good complement to other tools. You know, we integrate quite well now with Microsoft Teams, for example, we rolled that out this year, and you know, that that's been good for us.
Daniel Franco:So in the world, we're in a world where everyone's falling down your businesses growing? Well, yeah,
Ben Smit:I was gonna say like, I think initially that that responses really high. And I think it's now just looking at the long term and what what impact that will have because I think that's, that's affecting every business. Now. It's, you know, people always gonna look at their budgets and go, what can we afford to do? What can we afford not to do? Our argument is always where you can never afford not to engage your teams? Because that's going to help everywhere else. But yeah, so in terms of other markets, actually, it's been good as well, because you know, teleconferencing and video conferencing, all that has been much more acceptable. Yeah. So he where I was before, I was like, Well, look, let's start with a meeting online. And maybe we'll we'll get over to you and have a chat. Now. It's as well as meeting online. So that's all been really good. But I do think there is something to be said for immersing yourself in the region that you want to expand to. So you know, long term, we certainly are looking forward to having those districts having an
Daniel Franco:office stand up over there. Yeah,
Ben Smit:yeah. And just Yeah, really immersing ourselves in that culture and understanding how how they sell how they buy, you know, and how they operate.
Daniel Franco:I know you're a man of data, you're lucky that I obviously think gauges are data based collecting data that businesses can use. Yep. You just mentioned, businesses can't afford not to invest in their people engagement. What are some data points or statistics or percentages that you've seen as an improvement of people investing in this product? And also just the culture and of their business?
Ben Smit:Yeah, look, I think, you know, and again, this is going to be really specific to the use case, at least in our situation, obviously, there's a ton of research around what generically you know, engagement does for the business in terms of turnover in terms of, you know, selling the brand as well, that's often overlooked, but actually employees are big advocates for the brand that they work for. If it's a positive environment, if it's a negative one, obviously, they they're going to tell a bunch of people as well to go. Yeah, exactly. And in a sense, essentially, they become the same as disgruntled customers. Yeah, right. But possibly more powerful and worse. Like I work here, never, by the way,
Daniel Franco:right, like an infiltrate?
Ben Smit:Yeah, exactly. So I think, you know, from from a more high level point of view, there's that but you know, specifics, we work with a large multinational company at the moment, I'm not allowed to name them, unfortunately. But they one of the things they were measuring was when the pandemic started was around communication and how it related to, you know, things like trusts and, and that sort of environment, they were working in safety, and we saw are really marked as an amazing craft, between communication. And so when when the lockdown happened, they upped their communication, they would they implemented more, you know, touchpoints with in teams across the organization, virtual town halls, put systems in place to improve the communication of well, we understand that it's a bit uncertain out there, but here's what we're doing internally to make this work. And so the their communication line went up, I think it was, you know, five or 10 points, and all of the other lines followed in trail. So trust went up, environment, environmental safety, all went up. All of that was was connected to their efforts in communication. So they could point to that to senior leaders and go, Hey, you know, that those programs that we put in place, they've had these follow on effects. And I think that's, that's really important, but to me, to me, I don't actually like, at least my team managers involved. I don't like looking at absolute numbers. I'm more concerned with the improvement. Yeah. So if you if you start at a five out of 100, that's pretty terrible. But if you can get to a seven next week, And then you know, and you get the gradual it's you are you are living that improvement cycle. And that to me is more important than say, you know, benchmarking in the industry or anything else that is kind of nice to have as a tick box to say all with third grade here, but I care more that you improve from last month.
Daniel Franco:It is amazing the power of communication, isn't it? We work with businesses and their culture and leadership and their change programs every single day. We often ask, what's the low hanging fruit? Where can we start with some quick improvements that we can make communication, transparent communication, people actually understand there's no secrets, there's nothing, no one's hiding anything. We're open and clear about where we're going, what we're doing, yes, they might be similar, and people are willing to hear that there's, there might be some hurt, and there might be some pain. Yep. If it's transparent, if it's out on the table, it's amazing that, you know, we see a lot of managers and leaders of the world withholding information because I don't want to upset the upset the team. But in fact, I think that does a lot more damage than than actually providing that information. Sometimes
Ben Smit:I totally agree. Like, I always have that image in my head of, you know, Michael Scott from the office. And he's always just kind of like, sweeping things under the rug. And it's like, and you know, within that 20 minutes episode has blown up in his face at the end of it. And I actually think that's such a great analogy for your real life. You know, if you if you try and hide it, it's just gonna make it worse. I think she thinks, you know, from a from a startup and customer relationship perspective is the same, right? So I read something recently, and I can't remember strong, but it was saying, there's two ways that you can react to a customer issue. One is to try and downplay it and say, it's not a big deal. And the other way is to make it seem like it's the end of the earth and apologize profusely. And have we made this right, whichever one you pick, the customer will pick the opposite. Yeah. Right. So it makes sense to actually take it seriously make it a big deal, and everyone will just go Okay, now now. We can get through this right. But as soon as you try and downplay and be like, Oh, this is fine. It's not really our fault. You know, like, it's going to become worse.
Daniel Franco:Yeah. There's a third option there, though. I mean, which is admitting, like, yeah, sorry, I missed that. We'll work on that. Let's, let's get on with it.
Ben Smit:Yeah, look, absolutely. I think that.
Daniel Franco:Yeah. But not not scanning. Because I do agree if you it is, you often see those, I guess it's the real empaths who are so sorry. You know, they're looking for they have that approval, addiction, I guess where they want to please others. So it's often they get paid down? And I mean, it's not that bad. Yes. lazy. It's all good.
Ben Smit:Yeah. Just as you said, it comes out to bring it out in the open. And then I think, you know, the other thing that is in Ray Dalio, his book about, you know, the idea meritocracy, I think that's a really interesting concept as well. We're at a team level where you can be passionate about an idea or how things should be. But in the at the end of the day, the best idea should win. And then we'll have to kind of disagree and commit if we if we don't, usually that's it's not our option. Yeah. Because there's nothing worse than than not doing that. And then constantly niggling after a decision has been made, and undermining the rest of the team who's trying to achieve something, you have to you have to give it a go. And then you have to measure it, and then be willing to say after the fact, actually, it was the wrong call. Let's go do something else.
Daniel Franco:Great. Well, that's an ego thing. Isn't it? really put your ego aside what's best for the client? What's best for our vision, our purpose? What are we actually trying to achieve? Yeah, what are we connected? We want you to make, we're not here only just to make$1 we're here to do great things for the community. And what's the best thing for the business? So yeah,
Ben Smit:and and so much easier said than done? And it is not the default behavior? Yeah, that's right. So you really have to train yourself into that mindset.
Daniel Franco:Are you working? Well, I understand that you are looking into artificial intelligence. Are you already working with AI? Or are you looking to improve grow the AI? We're interested in AI here? We had an AI podcast last week. so
Ben Smit:fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. So so we do use it already, you know, certainly around our analysis of comments at scale, particularly, so looking at sentiment looking at, you know, key phrases that are themes, that sort of thing. Yep. The next evolution of that, for us is to start doing some predictive analytics. So I can't sort of break the lid off of some of the stuff in too much detail by the scoop. Yeah, really around, like, being able to identify patterns that repeat themselves. So you know, teams that have been in this situation before have ended up here. So you know, cut it off early, or, you know, teams that have measured this particular metric before I have had success implementing these actions. That's sort of the the next evolution of that where we can start to make some predictions and really start to help out The teams themselves who, who otherwise look, you know, smart people will come up with some good actions, but maybe we can nudge them in the right direction as well
Daniel Franco:coerce them in that. Yeah, brilliant. So you've recently been nominated for the 40? Under 40? award. Yes. Yep. Congrats. Thank
Ben Smit:you very much. Yes, tomorrow night,
Daniel Franco:tomorrow night. So what's that mean? What does that what does that do for Ben Smith and theme gage?
Ben Smit:Oh, look, I think it's, it's one of those things. It's just nice to be to be nominated that know. Well, and also, you know, just from a selfish perspective, Noelle won a few years back, and she's been lording it over me for years. Exactly. No, but look, it's it's really, you know, nice to be to be recognized, I think as as a team, right, obviously, I'm only as good as the people around me. And that's really for us to be recognized, as you know, in that entrepreneurial space, as a growing company, as someone that's, you know, making an impact. I think we should all share in that and look at its shortlist at this stage. Who knows if I if I make it into top 40? But either way, I think, yeah, it really just speaks to an amazing team that we have around us. You know, they're they're people that are passionate about what they do. They they really get behind our purpose and our vision, they want to make things better for others that that are struggling in their workplaces. So all that to me is is the goal. And this is just a really nice recognition of that.
Daniel Franco:Yeah, your purpose and vision, I guess, is felt amongst others, which is why we reached out to connect as as is very similar in, in the sense that we want people to feel valued in the workplace. It's so simple. And then and as a result, businesses become more profitable, and they grow and they can expand and we create jobs, and we do bits for our community. So yeah, we're really on board with what you guys are about. It's going to move away slightly and going a little back into the entrepreneur stuff. What, what is the hardest thing about owning your own business?
Ben Smit:Here, pick one hey,
Daniel Franco:yeah, what's one thing that you feel sometimes I'm just not cut out for this?
Ben Smit:Yeah, I look, that's that's a fair one. I think for me, personally, I've, I've always been more of an introvert naturally. So you know, just being constantly communicating is something more of a learned behavior for me. So that can be tiring, after a while, and I just find I need to find some recharge time to go do something by myself and, and get back to equilibrium. You know, up until recently, I would have said, cash flow was always our number one issue, right. And I hear that every peer group I go to, and we talked about our wins and challenges. It's always cash flows. Number one, two and three, most fun. Yeah, so that whole thing of like, you know, where we're going to find that next payroll? Where where's that going to come from? How are we going to grow, we need to do three things at once. And we can only really do two of them. You know, that constant battle growing from, you know, a couple of people up to up to say, sort of 10 was was really challenging. I think we're, we're feeling like we're hitting our straps a little bit more now that we're a bit larger, we have specialists in areas that are doing an amazing job. You know, it's not the constant hustle. Yeah, it's not having to be the jack of all trades. And I think that's, that's really helpful. And and also, you know, understanding your own limitations. I'd much rather bring in someone who's way better at whatever I'm trying to do. I agree. That that's been so you
Daniel Franco:have a look at the two people they're sitting in the room is, there's no way you could get me to do any of that stuff. It won't work. Yeah.
Ben Smit:So for those on the mic, so Claudia is our marketing manager here. And Gabriela there is ours. Yeah. And, look, it's been amazing. Our marketing effort in the last few months has just skyrocketed. Yeah, we've noticed. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So And, look, we've done that in a few areas, too. And I think, you know, we're now hiring for a chief engineer at the moment, for example, to manage the development team, and, you know, all of that really just helps us not jump into that next level of maturity. which is which is really important. But yeah, look, getting the people right, I think is probably one of the biggest challenges. You know, our hiring process now is far more sophisticated than I ever expected. It would be you know, there's there's a bunch of stages that we go through to do practical exercises, we focus in on on core values and really, you know, really weigh in on on reference checks and, and, you know, every part of that sort of, you know, 10 stage process for us, is exhausting. And there's there's been a few roles where we've gone through on a really deep dive with you know, five people and it takes hours and hours, but we'd much much rather to get the right person at the end of it, then shortcut that process, get the wrong person then have to fix it later. Yes. is so much so much harder.
Daniel Franco:Yes. And that's I think that's probably one of the hardest things about business growing your own business is getting other people right. That is absolutely Core and fundamental to growing long term and sustainable business. If you don't have the right people on board, then
Ben Smit:yeah, then that's the thing. Every time we buy a laptop, we roughly get the same thing, that every time we hire a person, they're very individual very different and bring all kinds of amazing things with experience. But that that dynamic is really important. And I think that like we're doing good on strengths profiles recently, and, and understanding how people fit together as well is really eye opening. So it's not just this person is great, but it's this person's great working with this other person, because they help balance each other out and come out with good outcomes. Yeah,
Daniel Franco:different Brain, Brain styles and thinking styles and behavior styles. So yeah, beautiful. And you mentioned, you need some you're an introvert, you need some time. What do you do?
Ben Smit:Yeah, so
Daniel Franco:And you mentioned hobbies earlier as well. Yeah, hobbies,
Ben Smit:funnily enough, so I played basketball for many years. Which my joints now Thank you. But now although that's sort of a team sport, I still find it's a good release to you know, get out there and do something a bit different. Other than that, yeah, I find myself with some sort of individual things. I love going for a walk and just listening to an audio book by myself. I've gotten into flight simulators recently, my real nerd thing. But yeah, learning how to how to fly fast jets and what not just really fun.
Daniel Franco:doing I've done a flight simulator. I remember the first thing you want to do is fly fly a plane into my in laws
Ben Smit:I remember the first time I saw someone gave me a house. We can cut that. Nay they good fun the floor. Yeah, yeah no voucher and ended up doing a full loop and a 747. And then trying to land it in the old Hong Kong airport. Yeah.
Daniel Franco:Are you strict with your time is a regimented your calendar? To the down to the minute? Are you a bit more happy just to go with the flow?
Ben Smit:Yeah, I've become more that way. I think as as has necessitated with with the role and with more people. I'm very much a person who doesn't like to sit still for too long. You know, I've got I've got these things to get done. Right. We've done this one. Let's get on to the next one. I've always been like that in my personal life as well. Like, Saturday morning, it's like, I need to do the swing three things. And I was like, we can relax as weekends. I know. Now I want to get these three things done. Then I can relax. Yeah. So from that point of view, yeah, I like to kind of check things off. I was always the the kid that ate the vegetables first. And then for whatever reasons
Daniel Franco:like says you can wash it down with the good stuff.
Ben Smit:He's chosen. Yeah,
Daniel Franco:yeah. Brilliant. Now it's the beer at the end and then wash it down. How? How stressful has the past 10 years been?
Ben Smit:Yeah, I think it's been it's been a roller coaster in many ways. So one of one of our mentors, Terry Gold, here in South Australia came from Boulder, Colorado. It's gonna be one of my next questions is do you have a mentor? But yeah, he's definitely definitely one of them. But he talks, one of the things that he said that rings true to me now is when you're small enough, as a startup, you have the roller coaster with ups and downs. So you've got those days where everything's awesome. You want that new contract, you release that new version, and then in the next day, where it's like, Oh, you've lost that big customer or, you know, you're having to make payroll or do whatever he learned. And he said, what you'll find is when you've kind of made it a little bit further down the journey, you'll have an up and down at the same time. So that's kind of day life. And and I've had a few of those where it's like, oh, no, and Oh, yes. all at the same time. Yeah. And so you sort of half celebrating and half Yeah, to fire. Those are definitely the most stressful, I think. And we've definitely had them yeah, we've definitely had them and, and it's really then that moment of going i've i've mismanaged this like what what did I do wrong here? And how do we get ourselves into this position? And yeah, again, obviously all of it's just down to learning, but it has real impacts as well, particularly on on people I don't like it when if we make a mistake that has an impact on on people in a negative way that that sort of doesn't sit well with me.
Daniel Franco:Does your mentor keep you accountable? Or do you have anyone else that keeps you accountable? Do you have a business coach? What do you who keeps you in check? Other than Noel, she definitely would be who keeps you in check outside of sorry, business partner?
Ben Smit:Yeah, so I've been very lucky to go through a few different programs and have a few different great mentors. So we've we've engaged with people formerly a great coach Steve McLeod from from Victoria, who, who we met through entrepreneurs organization, actually, which is another program that we we really love. So we went through their accelerator program, which is a three year program where you go and you do a learning day, once a quarter and then you're in a peer group every month. And we've followed that through a bit. I mean, a peer group at the moment does something very similar. And basically, we just talk about all of our wins and challenges over that month. And I liken it to, I think you need a good mix of mentors and sort of that are a long way ahead and a short way ahead. So, you know, I use the analogy of when you have a child, right, and your parents give you advice on how to rear the child. And their advice is fine, but it's kind of 30 years. Like, you know, mom, dad, we don't actually tell them things this way anymore.
Daniel Franco:It's an eye opening moment when you know, you've outgrown your parents.
Ben Smit:Yeah. And some of the stuff they say is actually really great. And some are not quite right for today. Yeah.
Daniel Franco:And I wouldn't go to them for advice on social media platform would you?
Ben Smit:right? Yeah. entertainment business. So you got people that have done it 20 years ago, and have these things to say about it. And it's like, oh, cool, I'm gonna pick that bit out. That's really good. Yeah, the stuff that you're talking about around technology is a bit out of day or whatever. But then, you know, going back to that, that parent analogy, you go to a mother's group or something, or and you've got someone that's got a kid that's a couple years older than yours, and they give you really great stuff. That's recent. Yeah. And I think it's the same as the so you find those peers that are just a year or two ahead of you. And you talk your problems out, and you go, and and, you know, he was really strong, and they could start protocols, you know, around, don't give advice, just experience share. So if you don't have that direct experience, and you just heard it secondhand, don't don't repeat it, because it's not your story. Yeah. But if you if you can share advice of like, Well, actually, that happened to us. And we did this. And the outcome was worth whatever it was. That is hugely powerful. So I love to have that mix of mentors that are just slightly hidden. There's lots of them here on, you know, what, 14? Yeah, that we can talk to? And then yeah, those other mentors that have come in and are sort of the whiteheads in the in the industry as well, are amazing.
Daniel Franco:Yeah. So you think you believe it's foundational to your growth that are
Ben Smit:Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, that was probably one of the mistakes I made really early on in trying to start businesses and be entrepreneurial is just like, Well, I know better. I'll just do this on myself. Yeah, same with hiring shows. Yeah, as well. I remember thinking to myself, I'm only going to get graduates because then I can shape them in, you know, they're not tainted by by these other organizations that will ruin them. Yeah. And you know, of course, you've got to have a level of arrogance when you're young, and you're coming out, but, but honestly, like, it's quite the opposite now, where I want to find those people who are just way better than me, and get that extra external input, even sometimes, just to validate what you're doing, if it might be the right thing. But to get that extra input is, is really good. And they've just, they broaden your horizons, right? We talked about that trip earlier and seeing them applied in different markets. They just they just think of things that you haven't thought of they they open your eyes to other possibilities. You know, there's another book decisive by Chip and Dan Heath, I think they're overrated to stick as well, which is one of my favorite all time books. If you want to do one thing in marketing, and you're not a marketer yet, go and read Made to Stick. It's fantastic for the list. But anyway, so going back to that sort of decision making, is there can be a fallacy where it's like this or this Yeah. And it's really an interesting exercise to sit down with someone and go, this or this, but could it be this and this? Or is there a third thing that I haven't thought of the nullifies that sort of binary, this? Yeah. So yeah, mentors are great at that.
Daniel Franco:Absolutely. We are coming to a close. I appreciate your time. And I know you get a shoot off, she's got some quickfire questions that I want to run through in a you haven't prepared for these at all. So the kind of off your top of your head fantastic questions. With you're a big learner, I know that you've read a lot of books, you've just mentioned this, what was the name that
Ben Smit:made the stick made?
Daniel Franco:made you see that is that? My question is, what's the number one book that you've recommended to people who are looking to grow? Either themselves or their business?
Ben Smit:Yeah, that's depending on the industry. What you're trying to achieve? That's a bit hard, but I would say probably the Five Dysfunctions of a team is one of my favorite books of all time. Great, Patrick. Yeah, it's just like such a good format. So consumable and judges have these great lessons or the same view about operating in any team Really? Yeah.
Daniel Franco:All these books were written in fable form, and they're amazing. Yeah, the learnings that you can get because it is that experience thing that you can almost grab from the book. Exactly. So if you had one superpower, what would it be? So you're you're lining up in a Marvel movie and you can pick a superpower what would it be?
Ben Smit:Ah, just surely immortality, right? Like it's Oh my age, right? I want to be able to play basketball and not feel
Daniel Franco:it. So that's an interesting one for me. I feel Like, if you could live forever or take away the excitement, it could.
Ben Smit:Yeah, but I'd find out in a few 1000 years, right,
Daniel Franco:but there's also the fact that I want to know what's gonna happen and
Ben Smit:yeah, I'm really curious. Yeah.
Daniel Franco:So it's a shame that I'm gonna miss out on it. Yeah. Well, he Yeah, he's an exhibitionist, follow up what we're just talking about. If you had access to a toy machine, it could travel anyway. Yeah, go to the past, or future, and where would you go?
Ben Smit:Oh it's tempting to go the past just to like, prove some points. But I think, I think definitely the future is more interesting for me. Yeah, yeah. I'd like to see like, Yeah, you got to make some guesses as to how will Well, if we'll get there, but how we'll get there. But yeah, look a few 100 years in the front, I'd love to see, you know, the Star Trek universe become a reality, or at least the sort of utopian version of that. Yeah, absolutely. It's,
Daniel Franco:it'd be scary. If you go, you know, 500 years into the future, something can be done. Does it? Add sort of business goals? What's one item on your bucket list?
Ben Smit:Oh, that's a really good question. I actually would like to learn to fly for real. Oh, and that's something I've always wanted to do. Eventually, I just kind of haven't got around to a very expensive hobby as well. So just simulating
Daniel Franco:that I'd love to learn to fly. Yeah, that won't be cheaper now. Who knows? Yeah, we're in. Alright, last thing that you are a dad. So I'm positive. You've got a dad joke. Can you tell them the dad joke?
Ben Smit:Oh, gosh, I feel like I should.
Daniel Franco:Nothing come? No, nothing comes to mind. I've got I've got a nine year old and last night. And this is the death of me being a funny dad. Yep. My nine year old comes to me said something which I thought was bloody hilarious. And my nine year old turns to me goes dad. You're not funny anymore. Because he's just so nice because now that I'm nine, I don't think I find you funny. Like this is a switch.
Ben Smit:So my daughter is at the stage where she'll try and make a joke. And then she'll ask for feedback. Is that funny? It's not bad there are ways to go.
Daniel Franco:Brilliant. Look, Ben, thank you very much. It's been amazing to chat to you and listen to your journey and learn a lot more about you and how you go about your everyday business and learn more about teamgage. How do we find you and you open to people get connecting with you and and also the business?
Ben Smit:Yeah, look? Absolutely. I think from a business perspective, you just hit our website, teamgauge.com. Be in terms of terms of myself, I love mentoring. So I'm more than happy for you. If there's other founders who have questions. Just get connect with me. shoot me a message on LinkedIn or something. If you're a recruiter or an outsourcer. That doesn't apply to you. But yeah, that's great. Yeah, I got a few of them a day. But yeah, look, I'm more than happy to help people out where I can just experience sharing. I'm certainly not, you know, not at the end of the journey or a guru or anything like that. But more than happy to experience share. Brilliant,
Daniel Franco:thank you very much. And we look forward to seeing what the future holds for you guys, especially tackling the international market should be exciting. Fantastic. Thanks
Ben Smit:so much for having me. Thanks, Ben. Cheers.
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