Michelle Holland is an international best-selling author, speaker, consultant, and the Founder and Creative Director of SynergyIQ. She has over 20 years of experience helping businesses to create better outcomes through processes, people and customer engagement.
In this episode, Michelle talks about the Dare to Lead™ which is an empirically based courage-building program based on the research of Dr Brené Brown, designed to be facilitated by organisational development professionals.
In the balmy city of San Antonio Texas early 2019, Michelle Holland became one of the first people to learn the Dare to Lead™ Program live and in-person with Dr Brené Brown. Adding to her research of the last 20 years, Brené worked with Fortune500 companies (like Pixar, Nike and Google) to apply her unique personal development formula into the workplace. She discovered a method of helping leaders to become courageous which created Dare to Lead™.
Join the conversation on Synergy IQ LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram (@synergyiq) and please support other leaders by liking, subscribing and sharing this podcast.
Access SynergyIQ Website to get to know more about us.
Here is Michelle's LinkedIn Profile
Here is Daniel's LinkedIn Profile
For more information about Dare to Lead™ Program and tickets, please visit the page.
Michelle Holland is an international best-selling author, speaker, consultant, and the Founder and Creative Director of SynergyIQ. She has over 20 years of experience helping businesses to create better outcomes through processes, people and customer engagement.
In this episode, Michelle talks about the Dare to Lead™ which is an empirically based courage-building program based on the research of Dr Brené Brown, designed to be facilitated by organisational development professionals.
In the balmy city of San Antonio Texas early 2019, Michelle Holland became one of the first people to learn the Dare to Lead™ Program live and in-person with Dr Brené Brown. Adding to her research of the last 20 years, Brené worked with Fortune500 companies (like Pixar, Nike and Google) to apply her unique personal development formula into the workplace. She discovered a method of helping leaders to become courageous which created Dare to Lead™.
Join the conversation on Synergy IQ LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram (@synergyiq) and please support other leaders by liking, subscribing and sharing this podcast.
Access SynergyIQ Website to get to know more about us.
Here is Michelle's LinkedIn Profile
Here is Daniel's LinkedIn Profile
For more information about Dare to Lead™ Program and tickets, please visit the page.
Welcome to creating synergy where we explore what it takes to transform. Whether you are transforming yourself, your team, your business, or your community will connect you with insightful and challenging leaders who share their stories of successful transformations. To give you practical ideas for your own journey. Join us for another insightful episode of creating synergy.
Daniel Franco:Welcome back to creating synergy podcast. Today we welcome back Michelle Holland, Director of Synergy IQ, expert in leadership, culture and change a mother of two beautiful young human beings and to ratbag furbabies. Very much. And also a mad Harry Potter fan, probably one of the world's most obsessed Harry Potter fans that
Michelle Holland:maybe, yeah, yes, yes, I keep it nicely hidden, as opposed to others that don't keep it hidden.
Daniel Franco:Excellent. So today, we have got Michelle back to talk more about the Dare to Lead program that she runs now the Dare to Lead program and Michelle will go into it far more than what far better than what I can. But the Dare to Lead program is run by a lady by the name Bren Brown.
Michelle Holland:It was created by Bren Brown, yes, created
Daniel Franco:by Bren Brown. Now you spend a little bit of time over in the US with Bren getting this accreditation
Michelle Holland:I did yeah. So it was something in beginning of 2019 flew over to San Antonio, Texas, which was in great place, great place in Texas and spent three days learning the program and the research directly from Bren, which was an amazing experience, just you know, being able to hear the behind the scenes, reasons for the the research and digging into it a lot more because obviously, she's been doing research for the last 20 odd years, specifically in the areas of belonging and shame and interestingly, when I started looking at belonging, so she looked at how things are connected and how people are connected. And where that ended up leading her to was actually how we become disconnected. And those are things like our our shame triggers, and the armor that we wear and all of these different things. So she started researching quite a lot in that and has essentially become the one of the world's foremost authorities on vulnerability.
Daniel Franco:Yeah, so she's pretty famous now.
Michelle Holland:Well, yeah, gosh, she's she's even been cameoed as herself in a movie. I think that ends up being a movie called I can't remember the name of it now. It's like something. Wine Country. I think it's called. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So it's a girls weekend away. And you know, there's a number of you know, quite famous comedian actresses in it. And she does a cameo appearance,
Daniel Franco:you know, you've made it when you play yourself.
Michelle Holland:That's what I reckoned, as well as all of a sudden, she's got her documentary that's on Netflix as well, so called courage. And that was the first time Netflix decided that they'd make a documentary style program with a speaker. So it was very much the first time they've done anything like this with Bren and it's
Daniel Franco:so in pretty good company. So did the same recently with Tony Robbins as well. Yes. Got one. Yeah, they do it with comedians in the walk. Couldn't I do actually label who is teaching teaching teaching? Kenny? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. What is it TED Talk is also pretty famous.
Michelle Holland:Yeah. So I think at last, when I last looked at, there was like 52 million views on her TED Talk, which called the power of vulnerability. And that was, that was the first one that I actually saw. So when I was introduced to Bren works, I've been a fan of Bren for a very long time, it was around about 2013. And it was the power of vulnerability that I was watching. I was doing a year long leadership program. And they sent me this, you know, Ted Talk. So watch that at the beginning of 2013. And, you know, I was in a place at that time where I wasn't ready to accept that vulnerability was part of the process of courage. I was the same as many people that looked at vulnerability as weakness and when I looked at it, I was like, great video. You know, she's an amazing speaker. She's very entertaining. This is essential learning for every person, but not me, not me. This is I can't do vunerability, you know, I'm a HR manager, I was a senior HR director at a company at that time. And, you know, I had my mask firmly placed in my armor firmly on, and thought I needed that to protect myself because of the environment that I was in and so I rejected it. I actually rejected her work when I first came across it because I wasn't ready for this vulnerability thing. Funnily enough, what she says in the TED talk as if you don't do vulnerability vulnerability, does you. So I found that by the end of 2013 vulnerability had done me and done me in. And therefore I kind of went something in this something in this stuff, I should probably have a bit more of a look at it. And it was a probably about a year later before I picked up her book, which is called the gifts of imperfection, and watched a few more videos and sort of dove into a few things. And then picked up the books, the the gifts of imperfection. And that changed me.
Daniel Franco:So the books of the gifts of imperfection. Absolutely would have changed you, changed me as well.
Michelle Holland:Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Daniel Franco:So when you ask, When you say, vulnerability, done you? Can you elaborate?
Michelle Holland:Yeah, absolutely. So at that time, I had gone through quite a significant, I guess, change process for myself. So we talked about transformation, it was a transformative year for me, I was doing a program called the governance leadership foundation, here in South Australia. And it's a program where you really dive into not just yourself, but your, your leadership within the context of the world and the society that you're in. And it's a really, it really digs into who you are and, and how you turn up. And it's one of those programs that kind of almost rips you from the inside out. And I walked into the program very much with a view of I'm going to allow this program to rip me from the inside out, and I'm going to go with it. That was that was the that was my commitment to myself.
Daniel Franco:So why were you there? What were you in that space, saying, like you open to letting it do that it's something dropped you previously?
Michelle Holland:Oh, look, I I think I was in a place where I was considering what was next. For me. In my career, I'd been a senior HR manager director for about six years or seven years. By that time, I'd been in human resources for a long period of time. And I was really struggling to figure out what was next for me, you know, and I'd got to a point where I was well known in the industry of HR was on the art Council. So I gone to those sort of highest levels of the career pathway, you know, I was volunteering for the provisional body, I was at a senior role in a large organization, I was speaking around the country, you know, based on this, I was on national committees and panels representing my profession. So I was really in that place of just going, Okay, I feel like I've kind of climbed to the top of the mountain. And what's next, there's got to be a bigger mountain.
Daniel Franco:What's on the other side?
Michelle Holland:what's on the other side, there's got to be a bigger mountain, there's got to be still stuff to climb. So yeah, I was really searching. And I quite often laugh that, you know, I said to people, as I walked into the GLF, it was either GLF, or counseling or therapy. So I decided on GLS. And that time, but yeah, it was a program where I didn't want to just learn leadership again, because I actually I taught leadership, so I didn't want to learn leadership, I don't want to go into a traditional leadership program, I really wanted something that was different. And because of that whole of world look like you dive into climate change, you dive into racism, you dive into the, the criminal system, and, you know, and all of the things that sit under that. So it really did help with me, sort of just opening my eyes up to the rest of the world and going, I used to, I used to do all sorts of things in my life, and all of a sudden, I just become somebody who'd works. And that's it. So what's next. So that's really why I chose that journey. And that's why I walked into it going, I just need to be open to whatever happens happens. So when I first looked at Bren's work, and when all this vulnerability stuff is just not for me. I recognized that the time also that I needed to explore it, because I was already rejecting it. And that was the armor going on. So through that year, I started to play with it and go, Okay, what happens if I take my armor off? What happens if I take my mask off? What will happen? And what actually happened was what I feared would happen was that I was actually rejected from the business that I was in. They Didn't want this new Michelle that didn't want the brave, vulnerable, challenging Michelle, they wanted the mask wearing, do what we tell you, Michelle, which I've never really been in that. But I found I fell into that a little bit in this organization. Because of the way in which the senior leadership behaved cultural division, it was it was the culture of the business. And like, my job was there to try and shift and change the culture. And we done such a fabulous job for the first three, three and a half years. And then of course, change of leadership at the top, change direction, change of behavior at the top, and things shifted. So through that period of time I went, I'm just going to I'm going to start being me and the thought of the authentic me. And I'm going to say that the direction that we're going isn't a good direction for the people for the business, I was having people come to me and say, I don't know what's going on. This isn't okay. It was great. 12 months ago, now, what the hell. So I started challenging, and, and properly challenging. And, of course, I wasn't appreciated for that challenge. And, you know, it got to a point where I, on reflection now realize it was bullying. At the time, I didn't accept that it was bullying, because I was the you know, the senior HR person, you can't get bullied, if you're the senior HR person can you like this is, what the hell, I help other people when they're bullied, you know, this doesn't feel right to me. But I know now that it was I was being left out of meetings that were important. And I wasn't being told things that were important. The, you know, the programs of work that we were putting out for being rejected without proper reasoning, you know, there was all this stuff that was happening, that just led me down a track going, this is not the place for me anymore. Like this is not this is not enjoyable. And, you know, I feared that being vulnerable and opening myself up and being brave, because you can't be brave without being vulnerable, that I would get my head chopped off. That was my fear. And what ended up happening was I was bullied and I got my head chopped off. So my fears came to realize realization, which, you know, it could have crushed me completely. But I think because I dropped myself into that place of going, I actually just want to be my authentic self. And I enjoyed being my authentic self, that I ended up leaving that organization. And starting a business at that time. It's like, go out of that, and straight into, you know, working for yourself, like seriously don't do that. Crazy, crazy time. And you know, and that really affected my identity, it affected who I was, it affected all of these things that I thought were me. So I was really starting to rip myself from the inside out. So when I picked up the gifts of imperfection, it it actually really, really affected me because it's very much about we have this we use perfection has armor. That's what we do. We use this perfectionism, I want to be seen as being the best I want to be seen as you know, at the top of the mountain. And that's where I was, you know, I was at the top of the mountain I was, you know, seen as someone who was pivotal in the in the space of human resources. And then all of a sudden I wasn't. And what did that mean, for me? Does that mean that I'm not who I am anymore. So it was really that turning on the head thing. So that was the nice thing about 2014 or so that I had that turning myself inside out moment, and started really diving into the work that Bren had had put out just personally. Yeah, personally,
Daniel Franco:because she's got more than 1,2,3
Michelle Holland:and she's got five, New York Times bestselling.
Daniel Franco:Is there? Is there an order in which you would suggest people read those books?
Michelle Holland:Look, I think The Gifts of Imperfection was definitely the one that she released that went to the top of the charts really quite quickly. That's not her first book. That's I think it was her second book. And she's got a lot of books that are in between or programs. So the gifts of imperfection for parenting, and all sorts of things. So she's got lots of different.
Daniel Franco:Is there a general step guide to the way she's written a book so you know, gifts of imperfection is about self?
Michelle Holland:Yeah, so I would in the way I generally recommend people read them if it's a order of which they want to do a self development journey. Gifts of imperfection is first then Daring Greatly, and then Rising Strong. So those three books combined are really the ones about releasing, releasing the leader within
Daniel Franco:and that's where Dare to Lead was born.
Michelle Holland:Yeah. So Dare to Lead came out of the price tag on there. I need to take that price tag off. So the dare to lead book came from the fact that, you know, Bren had done all this work and people were really appreciating her work and really diving into it like I did in using it to shift and change themselves from the inside out. And there was a number of organizations, you know, like the Googles of the world, and Pixar and, you know, and Nike and all these big companies, which were saying, Hey, you know, I've picked this up, and I'm now starting my journey as a leader from the inside, and I'm changing myself, how do I bring this into my workplace? Because who talks about shame at work? who talks about the fact that we have these emotional triggers? And that comes from our past at work? Like Nobody does that? We don't talk about that stuff, because that's vunerability, and we don't want to look weak, you know. So there's this loop. So they were asking Bren, you know, can you come in and talk at our, at our workplaces? An interesting Bren actually comes from an organizational development background. And that was her original career before she went into social work. So she's like, okay, you're working with organizations, that's kind of a bag, no worries I can do that came in and then started that journey, where she was being asked more and more and more to come in and talk with leaders and how leaders actually develop these inner skills. Some of its self actualization. If you think about that, in the broadest sense, it's how do I reach my full potential? Well, I can't do that by looking things outside, I have to look at the inside. You know, leadership is an inside out job. Yeah. So she decided that there's, you know, there's got to be something in this and started a seven year journey of research into how does my work? How does these things apply in the workplace? And can they be used to transfer transform organizations? And so she did some research. And one of the key questions she asked was, well, if you could change anything in your workplace to get better outcomes, better success for you, your team, the organization, your customers, what would that be? And overwhelmingly people said, We need braver leaders and more courageous cultures, we need to have more robust and tough conversations. We're keeping we're holding things back. We're not speaking our mind. We're not challenging each other enough. We need to have braver conversations. So she started on a journey on Well, what creates brave leadership, what creates courage. And she discovered through this research that there are four key skill sets that actually create courage. So she found out that courage is actually a teachable, observable and measurable skill.
Daniel Franco:I think that's why we really love her work is because it is based on research. But when, what is what does that research look like? Do you have any background on that?
Michelle Holland:Yeah, so she does what's called grounded theory, research, which essentially means she's a story collector. So she goes out and speaks to, you know, hundreds, actually 1000s now of people, her and her team, not just her and her team, and she gathers stories. So they ask questions, and then the people start telling her these stories. And then through that, she'd starts to discover the themes, or the the common elements throughout these stories and pulls them together. And one of the elements of grounded research is there's no outliers. So in normal research, you have outliers, you know, it's something that's right at the beginning or right at the end, and usually gravitate to the middle section, will in grounded theory, there are no such thing as outliers. So it's how do you capture the outlying information into this body of work as well? So yeah, she calls herself a story teller and a story collector. And that's really what she's done. So grounded theories. She's had all of these conversations with people pull all the information together, and then given it back in a packaged format. Yeah. Which is really why people go, I really respond to Bren work, I really connect
Daniel Franco:that type of character.
Michelle Holland:That's exactly right. Because that is me. And that's essentially what she says is you know, it, everybody resonates with it, because I've essentially taken your story repackaged it and handed it to you.
Daniel Franco:Interview enough people, you're going to hit one that similar.
Michelle Holland:Yes. Yeah. Well, she said that her and her team currently have about 400,000 data points. Well, to review through all of this research. Currently, the research he's working on is more in the emotional intelligence and emotional literacy area that I think is going to be her her next book coming through them whenever it comes through next year. So obviously, COVID has kind of unraveled certain things that have happened but that is the the next wave of this so she's really starting to dig under much more of that emotional Intelligence are what we call emotional intelligence. She generally calls it emotional literacy, which I prefer, because I think it's much more accessible. Yeah, you know, emotional intelligence gets a bit like, Oh, geez, do I have to be really, really clever at emotion stuff? Mostly? Yeah. You're dumb emotionally if you don't know it, but it's really it's emotional literacy. That's important. Understanding those emotions. Yeah. So all of that research, all of the, you know, from her research she did with individuals, as well as then with organizations, she packaged all that up and then wrote Dare
Daniel Franco:Dare to Lead. It's amazing. It's an amazing to Lead. program, setting and a few ones that you've done before. So you're accredited, in Dare to Lead. There's only a few people in here for the people in Australia that?
Michelle Holland:Yeah. So there's a cohort of 300 Dare to Lead certified facilitators across the world across the world. Yeah. Yeah. And you're one of them, and I'm one of them. pretty rad. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And being able to, you know, be one of the first cohort to go through the program as well, has been been a great journey, because we've been able to provide feedback back to Bren and her team, which she's now incorporated into that program, because the program is actually shifting and changing now, because of the feedback that we've been able to provide to her on, you know, trying it and doing it in different ways. And the really cool thing, I think, with the Dare to Lead program is it is based on the book, right? So it's taking the learnings within the book, and actually really digging into them, you know, in a personal way for her taking that time to go, Okay, what does this actually mean for me, and let's run through a process of really digging into it. So brings the book to life. The cool thing that Bren did when she, you know, taught us all and we all became certified facilitators. She said to us in the program, she's like, I don't want you to all be Bren Brown cover bands. That's not what I want. Yeah, she's, I want you to understand the research, I want you to take the learning, I want you to take the curriculum, and I want you to make it your own. Yeah, that's so I think. Yeah, yeah. And I think that's the beauty of the Dare to Lead program is that you might go to a program with one facilitator, and then go to one with another facilitator. And yeah, the baseline is the same. But the punchy points are different, you know, the, the application is different. The way in which it's taught is different. And we're all part of a big facilitation group as well. So we share different things with each other, you know, there's really creative ways of people are exploring values, or they're exploring trust, or they're exploring empathy and shame and all of those sort of things. So, you know, we learn from each other when we grow and grow and grows. I don't think I've run one that's been exactly the same.
Daniel Franco:It depends on who's in the room. conversation that goes on. I think that's what
Michelle Holland:Yeah, yeah, we
Daniel Franco:got set in a couple. And, yeah, each time you feel connected to whoever's in that room?
Michelle Holland:Yeah, I think so. And I think that's one of the beautiful things about the program, as well as because it's more about facilitating discussion and facilitating learning. It's not a it's not a, you know, follow the bouncing ball kind. Yeah.
Daniel Franco:Typical Leadership Program is this is what a leader should look like. Right. It's the education piece on what a leadership what leadership duties? Yeah, I guess?
Michelle Holland:Well, there's there's different kinds of leadership programs. I mean, the unfortunate thing is we've we've mixed up the terms leader and manager quite a lot. And a lot of leadership programs are actually management programs. And that's an important skill and a necessary skill for you to be within an organization, you have to have management skill, to be a manager, and a leader. To teach leadership, it's a very different model and different concepts. So there are some really great leadership programs out there that do teach that leadership and they always start from within. And I think that, to me, is the beauty of the Dare to Lead program is it starts from within, before you start looking outside of yourself. So we talk about in the program, how to give and receive feedback. But we don't go through a here's where you start, you know, go sit in a room, confidentiality, blah, blah, blah, that you would learn in a management or HR course. It's about how do you prepare yourself as a leader to be able to provide the best kind of feedback for that other person that's going to help them reach their full potential? Yeah, that's so much more important than the step by step process of how to deliver a feedback conversation because it really goes into that I'm a human, you're a human, let's connect. Let's do this together. And guess what, I actually give a shit about you. Yeah. So therefore I'm going to sit with you, not across from you, and give you something we're going to do this together, we're going to develop together, which is so much more meaningful for the other person. And particularly if you're having to have a conversation with them, which is a bit tough, which is, you know, didn't go the way we wanted it to go. You didn't do what you needed to do. You didn't have the capability or capacity. We need to grow that in you so you can deliver something better next time. Yeah, those are tough conversations to have with people because we have ego in that and all the rest of it, right. So they're tough conversations to have being able to have the inner strength and wisdom to be able to turn up to that meeting and go, I'm actually going to sit here with you, as we go through this. I'm going to sit here as a leader, and feel your discomfort with you tap into the emotion that you're feeling and empathize with you. That's a bloody tough place to be as a leader. It's so much easier. Oh, yeah. So much easier to walk in a room and have just that complete IR you know, yeah, this is the process I'm just going to run through. And I'm just going to tell you, and I've hit all the points. And then whatever your feeling is your feelings. Nothing to do with me and now I'll walk out the room.
Daniel Franco:job. Yeah, no concern for your absolutely no emotion. Yeah.
Michelle Holland:Yeah. So it's very different, very, very different way of looking at those more traditional management type skills.
Daniel Franco:The book on our podcast, we've had an all completely unrelated, I'd say, deadly book, when I asked the question, what's your favorite book? Hands down majority of the people on this podcast so far have said Dare to Lead and I'm gonna grab Gabriella and I have looked at each other and laughed and said, Why should we haven't paid you to say that? It is such a powerful book and the learnings to come from and what I really love about the program, too, is that you get a bit of Bren in the program, you do get her pop up on the screen. She has a you know, she got almost as a co facilitator in the process. Can you tell us a little bit more about the way the programs run?
Michelle Holland:Yes, yes. So there's actually a very clear curriculum that has been developed for the Dare to Lead program. So to get the certificate at the end, and all that sort of thing. It's a currently a 16 hour programs moving to a 24 hour program. So currently 16 hour program, you get your certificate at the end, you have to go through the entire curriculum. And at different points through that curriculum. Bren has actually done videos at each point to help educate. So there are I think, 12 videos of Bren now I choose not to use all of her videos, I use, I think five of her videos. And it's just because that's why I like to facilitate some people do they use all of the videos, content, but it's really great, because what she does is she actually talks about the research, she talks about her her application of that research, the experiences and she's she's a real storyteller. So she's always, you know, she's funny as well, it's
Daniel Franco:what's very relatable from all perspectives, I think there's a common theme of seeing the probably less male people within the class, I guess then end it for me, she hits the mark, regardless, because she talks about her husband a lot. She talks about examples of her workplace and some of the guys in our workplace. So still, for for the male perspective, it's still it's,
Michelle Holland:it is for everyone. We do find that in the public programs, there's more ratio, female to male, definitely in the public programs, the public arena, in the in house programs that we've run, they've been 5050 because, you know, it's like,
Daniel Franco:that's why
Michelle Holland:they're the leaders in the business, right? So they've walked into the room, and the guys enjoy it just as much if not more, sometimes, yeah, then the women in the room, because they don't have the opportunity all that often to actually dig into who they are as a leader. There's a different level of society expectation that's provided to men that they're not supposed to dig into that kind of stuff, you know, it's not manly, or whatever the crappy
Daniel Franco:shame and vulnerability.
Michelle Holland:It's shame and vulnerability equals weakness. A lot of the time and that's really drilled in from society's you know, messages to men in particular.
Daniel Franco:Yeah, you know, I've had many conversations. Yes, yes, it is. It is definitely soul searching when I did this and you because you ran our team through the program. It hits some nerves. I think but all the books that I remember reading gifts of imperfection and being a mess, absolute mess, because I had built this story about myself, you know, and there's a little bit of ego floating around. And it tore me right back down to shreds. But what I think it did for me was build a really good solid foundation or a lot build a solid foundation, the foundation was already there, it made me understand the boundaries of that foundation, what and what, what I was potentially making up my own head, that existed in my life when it didn't actually exist, or I was trying to be someone that I wasn't trying to, you know, to fulfill other people's expectations of me. So it's, the journey is long, I'm still on it is definitely her research has been fundamental for my career as well. And I think I thank you for that. You introduced me to her. So why is this different than all the other leadership programs? What what are we expecting? And I know you do the public stuff? And you mentioned you also do in house? Is there a difference in the way you run it? Or is it the same? What's the what is what? How is it different to other programs?
Michelle Holland:Yeah, so I guess, it it is made to be a face to face learning program, I have run online as well, it's it's different, particularly from a facilitation point of view, it's a little different, but it's still quite powerful. It is made to be a face to face, because it's made to increase that connection with other people. And being able to be in a room together to connect with others is an amazing thing. So what I find in the public programs, I generally have, you know, 12 or 15 strangers in a room. And by the end of the two days, because we do it in an intensive two days over the public, they're leaving hugging, you know, at the end, exchanging numbers, details, you know, catching up for coffees and all that sort of thing, because the process that you go through is really about vulnerability in action. And as soon as you start being vulnerable with other people, other people start to connect with you, you know, and theirs is beautiful, is it's just a beautiful thing to watch the
Daniel Franco:great networking experience as well.
Michelle Holland:Fantastic. Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, ran, I think, was it maybe seven or eight, upwards of 10 now, public programs, and each one is very different. Because of the people in the room, you know, but the common element is, by
Daniel Franco:Is it running a why like, what are the key? the end of the two days, there are people who have just connected so strongly with each other, that they maintain that relationships ongoing. It is the start of a journey. So I think that's the key component is I would never say any Leadership Program, or any training program don't care what it is. You're not walking into that room on Thursday morning, walking out Friday afternoon, and being a completely different person. You just not Yeah, you may have introduced things that can start you on that journey of being a completely different person. Now saying that each program that I've run, whether it's in house or public, there's always been at least one to two people in that room that have had these really powerful epiphany moments. They have left that room changed like completely c ange, a few to tears, you kno, those sort of sort of scare p ople have no no, it's but if ou do you dive in realiza ion. Yeah. And Brian calls i a primer course. Right? So it's a primer course for anythin else you do. So if you go off themes? I guess you mentioned 12, puppets or sections or nd you want to learn to, you kno, do that one on one on one kin of management stuff, being a le to be the kind of leader ou want to be in those process ng moments. Yeah, is so importa t. So I learned the process Absolutely. You have to turn up and deliver that process It's you that's deliver ng it, it doesn't matter what it says on a piece of paper. t's you that's deliver ng it. So it's that primer. So the public programs are rea ly great for that bringin people together and really iving in and really intensi e. whatever of the of the
Michelle Holland:Yeah, so there's 12 different videos
Daniel Franco:vulnerability, one shaman other or is it vision values? What are the Yes,
Michelle Holland:yeah, so there's four key skill sets that are learned. So the first one is rumbling with vulnerability. And that one is quite intensive. You spend if it's a two day program, you spend the whole day
Daniel Franco:so what's rumbling
Michelle Holland:rumbling means to be in something and stay in it even when it's hard. Yeah, yeah, let's get ready to rumble. Yeah, so staying in, even when it's hard and it's really about going through that process, it's a lot of there's an emotional intelligence aspect to it. There's understanding how to be empathetic, when you're not empathetic, you know, there's the empathy misses, it's when you're turning up and wearing armor. So we explore the armor that people, you know, traditionally wear, particularly in organizations that contribute to or undermine maybe the culture. Yeah, yeah. of the business.
Daniel Franco:When you say armor? Yes. Is that is it, the front that they're putting on is,
Michelle Holland:it's the protection protection or whatever they're using to protect themselves from the hard stuff in life. So there's, there's
Daniel Franco:stories they're telling themselves or the way they act or the way
Michelle Holland:Yeah, it's about it's a behavioral thing, generally. Or it's a mindset, as well. So there's, it's whatever I'm doing to protect myself. So one of the ones that stands out for me, and it also comes up a lot in many, many of these discussions, is what's called hustling for worth. So it's really about I've got to make sure everybody around me knows how good I actually am, so it might be in a meeting, I'm just going to talk over people so that they know that I'm really good at this. I'm just going to tell them everything that I know about that particular topic, even if it doesn't add value to the conversation, because what's going on inside is I don't think they think that I'm worthy. So I need to tell them that I'm worthy. I just show them like all this stuff that I can do,
Daniel Franco:where it's actually detracting from their experience. And
Michelle Holland:it is it is, and it's a it is a real hustle. That's the thing, it's a real hustle. And I'm hustling so that you think that I'm worthy. And there's a lot of energy that goes into that. And when you're putting energy into that you're not putting energy into anything else. So you're not actually putting energy into really, truly listening to what the questions are being asked before you're giving the answer. It's a skill, it's a skill, it is a skill. So that's a protection mechanism, though as well. So perfectionism is another armor that we wear, we we want everybody to see us as being perfect in whatever we're doing. You know. So if I get this exactly right, then you won't see that I actually don't think I'm enough.
Daniel Franco:That's the growth mindset type of stuff. Like
Michelle Holland:Absolutely, yeah, this
Daniel Franco:is the fixed.
Michelle Holland:Yeah, yeah, totally. Totally. There's, there's a lot of the growth and fixed mindset stuff in this.
Daniel Franco:So rumbling, with vulnerability
Michelle Holland:number one, number one. Number two, is living, family living your values, living your values? Yes. So I think living values, yes, it's soda wise, it's probably my favorite part of the program. I've always done a lot of values work. And I really love this part. And really, it's about digging into who I am and what my key values are. And not just so that we do our values exercise, it's really then how does that then translate into behavior? How do they how do we use our values to make decisions in our life? How do we use it to frame how we turn up, and how we move into what we call the arena. So we talked about, you know, stepping into the arena, because that's where we want to be brave, how do we step into the arena and use our values as a protection instead of using our armor as a protection. So it's a difference between developing protection from the inside out than the outside in? Outside,
Daniel Franco:I've done a lot of values work in my career. I think this program, and I'm not plugging it because it's you or whatever, but I fundamentally believe that this program or net Bren research or whatever it might be, that I walked away. Actually, it gave me a whole new perspective on my value. So you values things that can be up on a wall, right? Yeah, I'm this I'm respectful, I'm trustworthy, whatever. Yeah. But I think for this program, hit the fundament hit that foundation. Actually, this is what's embedded in that concrete in my body. Yeah, I am that person. Not I live to these values, but I am that person. Me too. And it gave me that understanding. It was so powerful.
Michelle Holland:Absolutely. Because when you know what your fundamental values are, you can actually create your life that actually supports those values. Because I know for myself when I'm not living within my fundamental values, I'm very uncomfortable. Yeah, I agree. It's not It's not the authentic life that I want to live.
Daniel Franco:So which sounds silly because you could put yourself even more trouble or you could give stuff away. Oh, absolutely. Because you it doesn't align with your values. But yeah, it's funny the way in the long term, it actually comes back and benefits you feel happier or you can go to sleep at night. Yeah. Yeah, it's
Michelle Holland:Yeah, absolutely. So that Values work is really important. And it is probably one. The bit that I really love. Yeah, it's, yeah,
Daniel Franco:it's really good fun. Number three.
Michelle Holland:And then number three is braving trust. So Braving is Bren inventory of trust, sir. You know, it's an acronym that's used for looking at different elements of trust, because trust is one of those things, that it's such a big concept. It's a little tiny word, but it's such a big concept. And it's hard to talk to somebody about trust, you know, if I walked into the office and said, Dan, you know, I think we've got a trust issue here, then straightaway, your armor is going to go on, right, your backs gonna get out, you know, what the hell? What do you really mean a trust issue? Was that mean? Yeah, absolutely. So Bren has actually broken trust down into seven key areas. And each of those areas, you explore them separately. And what we often find is, as you're going through those different elements, there's one or two of the elements that are actually the deal breaker for you. So it might be, so one of them is boundaries, B is for boundaries, right? So it might be that
Daniel Franco:I said Braving is, the acronym
Michelle Holland:Braving is the acronym. That's right. That's right. So in its, she calls it an inventory of trust. So the inventory it's braving, before boundaries are for reliability. A I'm going to test myself here for accountability. V for vault, I for integrity, N for non judgement, G for generosity.
Daniel Franco:So glad you reminisce.
Michelle Holland:Yeah, that was my biggest thing, like what comes next in braving [inaudible audio] written in front of me. So those key elements, you start breaking it down. So I mean, this exercise, the exercises that we do on the the braving inventory, one of those exercises changed me and actually changed my life. And it wasn't going through the the dare to lead course it was previous to that I was working with someone who's accredited in Bren other work, and I was working with her one on one. And she had me run through this braving inventory, because I was having some trust issues with some people. And it actually really changed me. And what I recognized in myself is that the generosity, one is actually my deal breaker, when people start, you know, so generosity is essentially do you put the best thoughts and feelings on what I'm actually doing? Do you think I'm doing the best I can. And when that's not there, and there's assumptions made, or it's like, I'm being criticized for something I didn't actually do. And it might be because it's part of your past experience and other people that, you know, that look like me or sound like me or you know, in your life have done that thing. And you've assigned That, to me, that's the thing that breaks my trust the quickest. So it's a really good way of being able to understand yourself. But also you can start doing any inventory and relationships that you're in. Sorry, I'm working with a couple of coaching clients, at the moment that I'm having them run through this exercise, because they've got some trust issues between the two of them. So they're doing an inventory on their relationship. And the inventory actually goes through what do I need to do to build this? And what do they need to do to build this, so it's very much about a relationship is 50-50 point of view as well. So that's a really powerful exercise, and you can do it with teams, you can do it individually, etc, you can do it on yourself, Am I holding my own boundaries?
Daniel Franco:So, relationships? 50-50, if you're giving all of your 50% you're giving 100% for your 50%. Right? And they're not then what?
Michelle Holland:Well, that's part of the boundaries, right? So it's really, if they aren't giving to this relationship, and I've said that I am giving to this relationship, and that's part of my boundaries, then it's time to what might be time to walk away from the relationship or have a conversation and or have the conversation. Yeah, absolutely. So there's, you know, there's things that you can do, obviously, to rebuild trust, rebuild relationships, and that's when you then have one of those tough conversations, which we call a rumble. You know, it's that rumbling conversation where we're gonna stay in this, even when it's hard, you know, even when it's uncomfortable. So it's, there's a number of different tools that are used with rumble tools that are provided as well, so people can have those kind of conversations. We have these things called rumble starters. And you know, and they keep the conversation going. And and they're really powerful tools to help rebuild or build relationships.
Daniel Franco:And have all your time. Oh, hang on. We've got number four more. Yeah,
Michelle Holland:there's one more. Yes. So the last one is a really important one. And it's Learning to Rise
Daniel Franco:learning to rise
Michelle Holland:Yeah, learning to rise. So this is based on the Rising Strong book that she had And that's really about, if you're going to be brave, you're going to fall. That's just the physics of bravery. It's just the physics of courage.
Daniel Franco:So if you're gonna get hit,
Michelle Holland:that's exactly right. You put yourself out there, you're vulnerable enough, often enough, you're brave enough, often enough, you are going to fall. And it's really a reflection tool. That's what the rising strong process is. It's a reflection tool. So it's looking back on a failure, looking back on a fall, and starting to unpick what it looks like for you. It's starting to look at why you survived that firm, you know, you're still here, you survived, why did you survive? Why did that fall hit you as hard as it could be? And that's all linked back to the stuff we've talked about before, and the trust and the values and the vulnerability and all the rest of it's all all interlinked. That's right. So really, the reason that that fourth skill set is so important is because if you're going to teach somebody to be courageous, you have to be able to teach them to survive when they fail. Because otherwise, they'll fail for the first time, they'll put themselves out there fail and never do it again. Because it hits them too hard. But recognizing that we all fail, and we can survive and learn from failure is a really important skill set to have.
Daniel Franco:Brilliant. So said, You've done a few now and I was asked this before, out of all the other people that have gone through this program, what are some things that they've come to you, they give you feedback, they give you some of the they come and comment? What are some of the things that you hear people say and take away from it, I really learned this, or I really got this from it. What are those? What are just a couple?
Michelle Holland:Yeah, there's it. It varies from person to person. So there's not one thing that I can go point to and say that's the thing that everybody takes away. So some people really respond well to the the conversation around empathy and understanding what empathy is. Because that's, you know, that's they've haven't maybe put it into practice the way they needed to put into practice before. A lot of people do talk about the shame shields that we go through and what happens when we do have a shame attack. And the shields that actually go up and the the impact of those shields going up as well. So there's a lot of comment on that. I had, I'll tell you a little story I had, I was at a a, like a workshop myself as a participant. And I sat across the table from this woman, I looked at her and I'm like, I know her from somewhere like, Oh, you know, where's she from. And then it came to my my car, she was in one of my Dare to Lead programs. So you know, we set a low and that sort of thing. And then at the morning tea, I'd gone and got myself a coffee. And she came over to me and she said, I just need to say to you that that Dare to Lead program changed my life. And I was I was kind of like, Well, okay, that's a little bad cup, like, wow, okay, that's amazing. So what, you know, tell me more like what way and she says I bed, the the learnings into the work that I'm doing, she was in a learning and development role. So she was able to work with teams, and she embedded it within the teams. So But personally, the values work has just changed my life. Because after I left the room, I dug into it a lot more. So to really analyze where my values were turning up and where they weren't, and how I was living within them. And when I wasn't just, it's just changed my life. It's powerful. It's so power has given me goosebumps now thinking about that. Because that's that is literally why I do the work that I do is so that people apply the learning and continue learning from it. It's not just about that day, it's not, you know, there's lots of great feedback about you know, at the end of the, the the two days or the end of the, when I do it in house, I generally break it up into five or six modules, depending on you know, their, their appetite for being out of the office. And then we can actually add a little bit more into it as well. So a few extra bits just to make it. Yeah, business. Yes, absolutely. Yes, that's right. So we can we break it up and do it in different ways as well, which is quite cool. But yeah, that the feedback during those sessions are always it's always great. But it's the stuff that I get after the fact is when I start talking to people afterwards, you know, months down the track, and they say that that you know Jim was just amazing. The story I tell myself, you know, just understanding now that I am a storyteller, and I will fill in the blanks and don't just run with that story that I've told myself but just go validate it just even that that there changes people yeah, they turn up
Daniel Franco:and it changes organizations to me. Absolutely. There's some of the the growth that we've seen and of the work you've done with the organization's has been remarkable as well. Yeah, we talked about that.
Michelle Holland:Yeah, so I'll give you an example of somebody that was attended one of the programs, she actually took back some of the tools back to her executive leadership team, they hadn't attended the program, because one of the criticisms that quite often comes up is that the language that's used in dare to lead is quite specific to Dare to Lead. It's very Texan, very Texan, and particularly that term rumble. So she actually took the term rumble back to her executive team, she explained what rumble was, she gave them some understanding about the tools. And she worked with them over a period of time. And now they use that term to say, okay, we're going to have a rumble. Now, rather than this is just a meeting, or this is a conversation or whatever, this is a rumble, which actually indicates to everybody in the room, that this is going to be a conversation, we need to stay in that we actually really need to have a robust conversation, it could get uncomfortable, we need to bring our honesty pants with us, you know, into this. That terminology, you know, even though it's criticized, meant that it was a trigger for everybody to know that this was a conversation we were going to have, it might be a bit tough, but that's okay, we need to get in there. And we need to be in it. So she took that from the program and embedded it within the team in the team that hadn't actually gone through the program. So there's lots of transferability of these, this, this work, you know, the ones that we've run in house, people have embedded it, and they're able to test out and try different things with each other. You know, one of the groups that we've been working with have put their full leadership team through. So there's almost 40 people by the end of the program going through it. So they now have a new language that they're using in house. And they've even they've redone their values now, and some of the language is embedded within their new values. So it's spreading out to the entire organization. So yeah, so then use the term rumble in there. Not quite.
Daniel Franco:So you need to read the book to be in the court to take part of the call.
Michelle Holland:no, no, it you know, if you want to read the book, read the book, like I
Daniel Franco:actually recommend on audio too, if you don't want to read a big reader.
Michelle Holland:Yeah. And Audible, she actually reads the book.
Daniel Franco:That's it, yes.
Michelle Holland:Bren actually reads the book, which is amazing. But no, you don't need to read the book to turn up to the program. The program is built for people who have never even been introduced to Bren's work before. And I've worked with numbers of people now, who didn't actually know who Bren was, yeah, and then introducing her to the work and they've just
Daniel Franco:loved because you can just go in youtube and dare lead and you'll get a whole bunch of information about what it's about, I don't think you'll get the depth that you have, obviously, the connection with others. So thing is about the course too. You know, there's 10 15 20 other people in the room, and you learn off their experiences. They almost might say something, or I think I remember someone saying something once in a while. I've never thought about it that way. And I'm going through the exact same thing. So it helps you take that, that those blinkers off. Yeah. Because you can see things from other perspectives.
Michelle Holland:Absolutely. Yeah, I find some of the most powerful moments end up happening in the breaks. Yeah, you know, I was overhearing somebody speaking. And it was a fairly junior person. So she'd come into the program should quite Junior in a small business. And she was talking to one of the guys in the room who was a senior executive and a really large business. And they were chatting, and sharing these stories that were very similar stories. So even though she was a junior in this small business, and he was a senior in a big business, they had shared this meaningful experience together. And we're able to help each other work through some of this stuff, which was just that, to me is so powerful, like, I love seeing that, you know, and I love the stories that people are able to provide. And yeah, everybody learns from each other, which Yeah, that's, that's my job as a facilitator is not to go, Hey, I'm the, you know, the, the be all and end all and I know everything I don't, I absolutely don't. What I'm there for is to create an environment where people can share. Yeah, and as soon as they start to share, it helps somebody that's sitting next to them or across from them, and it's just, it's great. It's a beautiful experience.
Daniel Franco:Excellent. I love it. Is there anything else that you want to add about the program for we
Michelle Holland:don't think so. I think we've we've explored it quite well, actually. I mean, there's a lot of activity work in it. There's, you know, a lot of you get your own workbook and you know, a lot of the activities as well. It's, it's made to be applied. That's what the program is all about. So I encourage people to take the book, you know, take the exercises back to their teams and run their teams through these exercises as well, because it's, it's a program that's made to be used, it's made to be spread, you know, the Bren Brown's vision is that she's, she wanted to start a global conversation about shame and connection, you know, and she's done that that's an amazing thing that she's created. So getting that work out there is just
Daniel Franco:getting accreditation, a little badge for it as well.
Michelle Holland:You get a certificate of training, you don't get accreditation, but you get a certificate of training, and you get a badge for your LinkedIn as well. Which is awesome.
Daniel Franco:Great. Another little community on
Michelle Holland:totally. Yeah, you've done Dare to Lead training. That's right. So you can have that conversation and the language, you know, you can start talking, you know, rockin Texas.
Daniel Franco:Start rambling.
Michelle Holland:Now it is look, I love it. I'm quite biased, obviously. But I do love it. I was looking for a program myself that was about self actualization, and more about leadership from within, rather than that more traditional one on one kind of leadership training, which is, you know, there's lots and lots and lots of programs out there. This was something that I was looking for myself. So I'm really excited that we can offer this as well as we also do the one on one stuff, you know, it's like, how do you then translate this into action in the workplace?
Daniel Franco:What's exciting is that you've been bringing this into all the work that you do anyway, with? Well, yeah, yeah, the language. Is there the fundamental Yeah. So
Michelle Holland:I've now got to the point where if we're doing a culture Transformation Program, that I run the leader through this program, it's just part of that journey. It's Yeah, absolutely. Because it's fundamental stuff, fundamental skills for leadership.
Daniel Franco:brilliant way, can we get hold of you? And are there any public courses coming up? Like, well, how does the public courses that people have to sort of just follow you on LinkedIn?
Michelle Holland:Yeah, so if people can connect with me on LinkedIn, that's great. Synergy IQ. comm.au is our website. And we have a page devoted to Dare to Lead on there. So any of the current programs, whether they be public or short, courses, that sort of thing be on there. We're doing a plan for the next half of this year now. And putting that out there, obviously, the the whole the world as in virtual, and, you know, there's been some restrictions around virtual programs.
Daniel Franco:Now you're in South Australia. So
Michelle Holland:yes, that's exactly right. So we need to now replan, because we did have a number of programs planned that ended up kind of falling away because of all the restrictions but yeah, so if you go to SynergyIQ.com.au and have a look at the Dare to Lead page, then the programs that are ready for for booking will be there
Daniel Franco:and follow Michelle Holland
Michelle Holland:on LinkdIn. Yeah, absolutely. So I am happy to connect with everybody
Daniel Franco:everybody, everybody. Yeah. Excellent. Thanks again. Thank
Michelle Holland:you. That was fun.
Daniel Franco:Thanks, everyone. We'll catch you next time. Thanks. Bye.
Synergy IQ:Thank you once again for joining us here at creating synergy. It's been great spending this time with you. Please jump on to the Synergy IQ Facebook page where the discussion continues after the show. join our mailing list so you'll know what's happening next at Synergy iq.com.au. And of course, don't forget to subscribe to this podcast. And if you really enjoyed it, please share it with your friends.