Kylie Morton has developed a deep appreciation for the value of work and the potential of people in her career as an enabler of improvement and change. As the enterprise leader for Change Management at BAE Systems Australia, she is building a team, a capability and an experience that she hopes will leave a lasting legacy and improve work for thousands of people. She's a lean six sigma black belt who's terrible at math, a failed graphic designer, a terrible hip hop dancer and a wannabe neuroscientist.
In this episode, Kylie will talk about the science behind change management, how she is building a team from scratch, how to build resilience, and how to normalise the human response to change.
Join the conversation on LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram (@synergyiq) and please support other leaders by liking, subscribing and sharing this podcast.
Visit SynergyIQ Website to get to know more about us.
Say hello to our host Daniel on LinkedIn.
Where to find Kylie Morton:
LinkedIn Profile
Email: kylie.morton@baesystems.com
Kylie Morton has developed a deep appreciation for the value of work and the potential of people in her career as an enabler of improvement and change. As the enterprise leader for Change Management at BAE Systems Australia, she is building a team, a capability and an experience that she hopes will leave a lasting legacy and improve work for thousands of people. She's a lean six sigma black belt who's terrible at math, a failed graphic designer, a terrible hip hop dancer and a wannabe neuroscientist.
In this episode, Kylie will talk about the science behind change management, how she is building a team from scratch, how to build resilience, and how to normalise the human response to change.
Join the conversation on LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram (@synergyiq) and please support other leaders by liking, subscribing and sharing this podcast.
Visit SynergyIQ Website to get to know more about us.
Say hello to our host Daniel on LinkedIn.
Where to find Kylie Morton:
LinkedIn Profile
Email: kylie.morton@baesystems.com
Welcome to creating synergy where we explore what it takes to transform. Whether you are transforming yourself, your team, your business, or your community will connect you with insightful and challenging leaders who share their stories of successful transformations. To give you practical ideas for your own journey, join us for another insightful episode of creating synergy.
Daniel Franco:So welcome to the creating synergy podcast today. We have Kylie Morton, how are you?
Kylie Morton:I'm good. Thank you. Glad to be here.
Daniel Franco:Excellent. We glad to have you. So Kylie has developed a deep appreciation for the value of work and the potential of people in a career as an enabler of improvement and change. As the enterprise leader for Change Management at ba systems Australia, she is building a team a capability and an experience. And she hopes that she will leave a long lasting legacy and improve work for 1000s of people. That's awesome. She's a Lean Six Sigma Black Belt, who is terrible at math. We'll get into that. A failed graphic designer, we'll get into that as well, and a terrible hip hop dancer. And I want to be neuroscientists. Excellent. That is that's an awesome profile. Thanks. Thank you for being here.
Kylie Morton:Great to be here.
Daniel Franco:So can you tell us a little bit about yourself? How did you? How did you get where you are today to become, you know, the the lead of change management with NBA big, massive defense?
Kylie Morton:Yeah. Sometimes I'm not sure how I got there, if I'm honest. I think I am one of those people that just kind of just take opportunity when it presents itself. But there's probably a little bit more deliberate than that. I've been sort of actively pursuing that 8020 rule throughout my career. So I always find the thing that really gets me out of bed in the morning, and then make sure that that's the bigger portion of my next role, if that makes sense. Yeah. So I started off working as a business analyst a long time ago, and sort of slowly moved through business analysis into business improvement. And that's when I became the black belt, which I don't really know how I got that accreditation, actually, because I'm really terrible at math.
Daniel Franco:To calculate.
Kylie Morton:That's right, yeah. But you know, I think I, I really enjoyed that role, because I enjoy improving work. You know, I think people come to work to do a wonderful job and to leave feeling like they added value that day. And so much of the processes that we work with, just kind of undermine that intention. And so I felt that as an improvement specialist, that I would have, you know, great opportunity to kind of unpick that and make that better. And I think I did that classic, it feels sort of silly now. But I had that classic epiphany at some point, which was that it wasn't the processes or the, the logic behind improving a process that prevented work from being better it was because we weren't considering the people that were involved in these processes. And so I kind of took a bit of a chance and applied for a job with BA that was enterprise Change Manager. So I was kind of studying or establishing change management as a capability. I don't even know how I got that job. Actually, I think now, you know, I had such a strong continuous improvement backgrounds, you know, business analysis, and Lean Six Sigma, it was really technical. But I know that I had a passion for making sure that people were considered and taken care of through those improvements. And I guess that must have gone through because I got the job. And it's been the best thing I've ever done. Yeah. So
Daniel Franco:how long you've been there?
Kylie Morton:Just over three years now, three
Daniel Franco:years. And so I know a little bit about you. And so you build a team? Yeah, I can quite a substantial team around you, which is amazing. Considering that ba systems. Australia came from a place where change wasn't really at the forefront of their mind in the sense of thinking from a human machine. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about your growth within their and your, in your ability to help them see the light, I guess if that's the right, yeah, yeah,
Kylie Morton:yeah. Um, I, I started off as kind of one of, you know, single digit change managers in the business. I think there might have been two of us at the time. And, you know, it was kind of asked to start from scratch, you know, really build awareness for what change management was and the value that it could bring. I think when I joined, I had this. I thought I thought that I was coming to an organization with that, perhaps was already sold that you know, that the reason I was there was because I already knew what the value was. And it became apparently, really early on that actually, I was going to have to start right from the very beginning. And so my big dreams of you know, Big Bang, sponsorship and lots of training and, you know, leveraging off of an existing framework of some kind, we're kind of diminished really quickly. But then, actually, that became this moment where I realized I had freedom to kind of do it my way. Yeah. Yeah. So good,
Daniel Franco:especially from someone who had a background of always seeking to improve exactly to be able to create, yeah, he's, yeah,
Kylie Morton:well, and also, I kind of, I really liked to be able to just pull together seemingly random, and, you know, and disconnected theories and ideas and connecting them into what I'm working on. And so, you know, working on change management in an organization that hadn't really done a lot in that space, gave me the freedom to start to bring in topics around resilience for change, and neuroscience, and, you know, thinking about perhaps even, you know, AI and, and automation and having that opportunity to think about what change might look like, in not just two years time, but five and 10 years time. And I just don't know that many people get that opportunity. And I think what happened was, rather than me having the benefit of people pulling from my capabilities, that makes sense. So I had to go out there and just kind of gently offer what I had. And and I guess, have faith that if that brought value to them, they'd come back. And I think that's what happened. So there was no, I guess, framework, or anything that said, Well, you know, change management is going to apply here or there or anywhere. It was really, because certain projects, or certain areas of business, recognized that they wanted, they wanted to do better. And they wanted to think about their people. And they'd ask for my help, and I'd go help. And even if it was just this teeny, tiny little bit, it was better than it might not have been. And then that kind of grew something.
Daniel Franco:So you you're working for this behemoth business, yeah. And thrown into a position where you and a couple of others in your team have have to grow the change management capability within the business. Like normally you start off small. But you've gone straight into one of the biggest defense companies in Australia. Yeah. To help them.
Kylie Morton:Yeah, I don't know if that was deliberate or not just an accident.
Daniel Franco:There's no real better way than learning. Really, yeah. And no pun intended here. But the see if the ship would sink, I guess is where where you're at in your in your career?
Kylie Morton:Yeah.
Daniel Franco:How did you having not knowing a little bit about the defense industry, and just probably even the engineers and project managers that are delivering these projects that you guys are doing? Yeah, it's a very, when I when I say aggressive, I mean, fast paced environment. Yeah, let's get let's get shit done. Let's make sure we we hit it on time on target, to the best of budget as possibly. How do you then pull these people back and say, hang on, we need to consider the journey that we're going along here. Yeah, it's a it's a big thing.
Kylie Morton:Yeah. And and we've not always been successful, I think, you know, just going back to that point around, it would be easy to think, well, we did a bad job because we didn't pull them back as much as we should have, or could have. But I think the benefit comes from pulling them back even just a little, because then you know that next time, they'll pull back just that little bit more. Yeah. Because I've seen the value of that. So
Daniel Franco:I just learned in their head that they might need to pull back.
Kylie Morton:That's right. Yeah. And what we've seen is projects that invited us, you know, asked us for help at, you know, the 11th hour, you know, we're going live tomorrow, can you help us now ask for help far earlier. So it's I think it's been that sort of nudging approach that has helped to build awareness of what change management's can do. I think the other thing too, is that I don't know if it's a mess or not about, you know, engineers, not kind of understanding that human element, because I think it's, I think I've just found a different tact needed, where
Daniel Franco:we're paying them all with the same brush, which is, yeah, shouldn't be but yeah,
Kylie Morton:and the other set, there's a spectrum, obviously, like everything, but what I found is that you explain sort of rationally and logically, you know, the science behind managing change, that it's not a soft skill, that it's actually you know, there's really clear links to the way we will be react and emotion, the emotions that we have, and the way that we feel, and that these activities are not just because we kind of think they're right It's because actually, we know that if we communicate directly and we get eye contact, we're releasing oxytocin. And when we release oxytocin, we reduce anxiety. Like, when you go to that kind of level, they go, Oh, okay, that makes sense.
Daniel Franco:Yeah. So that's kind of a practical way of explaining to. Yeah, I think that in itself is a skill that most people struggle with is finding. Okay, so this is I'll explain it this way. There's this old saying treat others the way you want to be treated. Right. And to me, I actually believe that's a myth. I think it's treating others the way they want to be treated. Well, yeah. Right. Let's face to them in their language. Yeah, if I'm going to, if I'm going to speak to a team member who speaks a different language, speaking into it with English, as opposed to they might speak Portuguese. Yeah, a different world. We're not speaking the same language, therefore, communication breaks down. So it's about finding what helps them in their everyday environment. I think that's exactly what you've done.
Kylie Morton:Yeah, I think so
Daniel Franco:broken it down into practical steps.
Kylie Morton:I think that's really important. Because every we know that people experience things from their own street corner, you know, they see things with your background and their perspective. And that means that if I go in with mine, I might not always land it unless they're coming from a similar background or similar experience. And we need to know that that's almost never the case. Yeah. So there's a, there's always an element of being a bit of a chameleon. I think when you're managing change. You have to be Yeah, well, managing people.
Daniel Franco:Yeah. Is really, isn't it? It's about Yeah, being adaptable. And I guess perspective, I think when you talk about street corner, the word perspective comes into my, my mind where I need to almost stand behind them and have a look at the same view that they're looking at. Yeah, and really understand. Okay, I see that I see that I see that. Yeah, let's put that in a way that we can help you. Yeah, absolutely. Get the result that the company needs. Yeah, meaning the needs, that our customer needs, whatever it might be.
Kylie Morton:And this concept of, you know, your, your street corners when I picked up in a previous workplace, when we started talking about, you know, how do you build inclusive teams? And I think when you think about a street corner as being just, you know, the way that I see something? First, actually, would it be helpful if I explained the whole kind of analogy around? Gotcha, yeah. Um, so sharing a street corner is, you know, if you can imagine that you're in a busy intersection. And it's a, you know, perhaps, a cross junction. Yeah. And you're, you know, perhaps you're standing on one street corner, and I'm standing on the other corner, and there's a car accident. And we might both see that same car accident. But because we're on opposite street corners, we sorted differently, neither of us are wrong. Both of our perspectives are entirely correct. They're just different. And so when we're working through, you know, working with leaders and working with teams around how people might see something, it's natural to go, oh, but that's wrong, because that's not what I meant. It's not that it's wrong. It's just that they saw it differently. And I think meeting people where they see things is really important to bridging that gap between improvement and change. improvement. Yeah, it's just the, the, the tactical, the practical, the process, you know, it makes sense that this should be better. But change comes when we go there together. And I think that means you have to see other people's perspectives.
Daniel Franco:Yeah, it creates the stigma, I guess of they understand me, therefore, I'm going to be more willing to Yeah, like it's the buying piece. Yeah. Right. They understand where I'm coming from therefore, okay, let's give this a go. Yeah. As opposed to if you're told, no, you can't do that. We're talking about the Apple and Android watch. Oh, yeah. Right. Yeah, exact same scenario. So just to give context to the people listening, I love everything that Apple do. I love everything that steve jobs created, and Apple as a business have created the innovative product, everything, I just won't buy it, because I don't like being controlled to a point where I get told what products I have to use and how I use them in the way I can load things onto my phone. So but that I think that's the thing is that up, but I have a real appreciation for it. Therefore I'm willing to understand and give it a go. And if anyone was ever to give me an iPhone, however, until proven otherwise, I'll just keep using the Android stuff. So if anyone's listening, I'm happy to accept and I'll plug anyone who wants a toaster up to school. So I'm interested in the neuroscience because you touched on that. I mean, you're not you haven't studied in No, no you
Kylie Morton:Is it is my plan second career, though? Yeah, it's already scheduled in for when I'm 65, I'm going to become a neuroscientist. Brilliant. Yeah, I'm really I think it's come from, you know, I think I, you know, inherently have a, you know, an analytic analytical mind, it makes sense to me if I can see the logical pathway behind something or the process behind something. And so when I was, you know, presented with a challenge of introducing change management into an organization that is primarily technical in the way that they think and the processes that they use, I had, I felt like I had to pivot a little bit, and I needed to find a different way to talk to people about, you know, about sharing their street corner, why it's important to share their street corner. And so for me, bringing it back to the neuroscience is really important. So sharing a street corner is again, connecting, connecting is the release of oxytocin, etc. So I just started really to get a good interest or, you know, a keen interest in understanding the science behind our emotions. And what that led me to realize is that, you know, the change management activities, which can be sometimes quite substandard, you know, we know, we need to communicate directly, we know, we need to understand impact, we know we need to train and educate. All those kinds of things are actually based and founded in science in emotion science. So you can always create a bit of a playbook, you know, to say, Well, if I do it this way, then the biological response is gonna be this. And then that means that we're more likely to do a better job at managing that change. So I think that, you know, the future of change management kind of starts to head in to that space, or it's really about a deep understanding of why we're doing what we're doing purpose. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. connecting with others. Yeah, making sure that, you know, we're normalizing all of those reactions to change that they're not not in our control. They just happen. I think I read something, it just really hit home for me, which is that we, our brains see change, and presume it as guilty until we prove it in a sense. So we assume that it's not great that it's gonna be awful until we prove otherwise,
Daniel Franco:the fight or flight? Yeah.
Kylie Morton:So if you have that, in your mind, when you managing change as a leader, or as a change manager, then you know that the reactions that you're seeing are not by choice. They're by design,
Daniel Franco:Then you add the weight of being bitten a couple of times.
Kylie Morton:Yeah. Is it past experience experience? Yeah.
Daniel Franco:Yeah, that's, that's, it's a phenomenal topic. We could talk. I know. I love it. We gonna go to the Disney World here. But the cartoon inside out have you watched that. Yeah. Where they talk Yes. emotions and understanding each individual emotion. Yep. Within someone's brain. It's fascinating. If not, that is the smartest movie I've ever seen. From the way it's created to make a comedy and a kid's movie that people can understand. It's, it's brilliant. So yeah, I'm absolutely fascinated about that, as well. See, you talk about the neuroscience and helping understand people's perspective, I guess we had a street corner. And you know, yeah, sharing that street corner. When you talked about resilience? Yes. Well, where does that fit into? All this?
Kylie Morton:Yeah, I think resilience. So resilience for me came as another angle for me to raise awareness of change management. So you know, why, why it's important to manage a change and lead a change. I wanted to talk to people about, you know, their reactions. And this, you know, the strategy for building capability at VA was really kind of three prongs. So it was one, obviously, we needed capability to manage change. So we need change managers whose you know, core practice is understanding the principles behind managing change. We also need leaders who are really great at leading change. But we also need individuals who know how to manage change for themselves, who know, what triggers them, who know how to take control of those negative thoughts and feelings, and who know what they need to be able to move through to a space where they can really adopt change and be energized by change as opposed to drained by it. So I wanted to start to talk to people about that, that part that, you know, do you know how to manage it for yourself. And I think, you know, organizations have a responsibility, a deep responsibility to make sure that they're minimizing the opportunity for people to feel anxious or uncertain. But I think there's a greater responsibility on us as individuals to do that for ourselves. You know, ultimately, it's our health and well being that's at risk if we're not great enough. So that's why I wanted to talk about resilience and I was one of those people that was I'd probably say I was not very resilient. When I was younger. I used to do that whole thing where sort of sometimes you know, where you have like a really bad interaction with somebody. And then you replay that back later on, but you are way more awesome the second time around, like you said something really cool. Yeah, yes, I would do that. I would lay awake at night sort of, you know, remain one person that hasn't done. Yeah, that's why we all do it. Yeah.
Daniel Franco:Are you awake at night?
Kylie Morton:Yeah, I'd lay awake at night and worry about things. And I just, I don't know, I sort of realized that it was not helping me. So my thoughts were not serving me. And I didn't know at the time wasn't probably until I started to put together you know, a bit of a course or a package around, you know, how to build resilience, that I was actually following a bit of a process for myself as I got better at that. And I, and I built my own resilience by finding a way to call myself out when I was doing those things. Yeah. And, you know, and then really kind of getting curious about why I might be thinking those things and what's behind it, I started to connect more with people. So sharing my street corner. And that just helped me kind of let it go. So I didn't know when I was doing that, that that was a process that others could also follow. So I built like this little course around it even had back to Disney even had it also at the end, letting it go. Funny story when I when I delivered this course once to a group of engineers, I did the whole let it go. And it feels so flat. They were just looking at me going yeah. But I did deliver it to a group of graduates once and they all joined in never had a nice little thing. Right. But that's been like one of my, I reckon is one of the biggest privileges. I've had a BA I think I've managed to somehow talk to about, I know 5 600 people about that process that I use. And again, it's just small thing,
Daniel Franco:and what's the general feedback you've received from that?
Kylie Morton:Just that it's it's so it makes sense. Yeah. And that it doesn't feel? I think a lot of resilience programs can be sometimes overwhelming. There's lots of different aspects. And
Daniel Franco:yeah, so you bring the human element to the resilience. So I'm interested in East because we run resilience programs and all that. So this absolutely. fascinates. Yeah. Can you give us a root three step approach that you hear? Is that how it goes? Yeah,
Kylie Morton:that actually is it. So the sort of four steps, I guess, which really is three, but the four steps is call yourself out, you know, and recognize that you might be adding negative emotions to a situation negative thoughts, and
Daniel Franco:we get to that point where we can call how do we become self aware enough that we can call ourselves out?
Kylie Morton:I think you need to know what your triggers are. And I think you have to practice on those smaller triggers.
Daniel Franco:So understand your behavior first. Yeah, that's pretty cool, isn't it?
Kylie Morton:Like I mine is, if I'm late to something, what triggers?
Daniel Franco:I think there's a company in South Australia that Michelle and I did a, a workshop was about two and a half 1000. Or just over 2000. People should say in this company. Yeah. And we did 30 odd workshops for this company, with utility in South Australia. So you probably look at that. It was Yeah, we I think everyone there knows my trigger point, in the sense, because we were talking about the same sort of thing is how do we understand how habits and attributes are handled? And how do we break that and becoming late? I mean, when you said that I smiled straightaway. It's almost like if I know, a given example, my wife and I were going out for dinner, kids are running around screaming yetta, yetta, yetta, all that stuff. I need to be somewhere at 730. I understand that takes half an hour to get there to this place that I need to be. But my wife thinks now it's not 730 yet, so she has a different perception of time. So we're we're not leaving the house until 730. It's right it's fashionably late. All that stuff. gives me that. It's almost like someone switched the catalog for me. Yeah, that the blood just that's I can feel it sort of gurgling away. And it's so interesting is I don't understand what my fixation to time is. I don't get it. And I think over time, that program was actually went Hang on. And the more and more I spoke about it, the more and more I recognize what I was doing to the point. I'm not really that fast. I'm okay. I like to be stick to time because I don't like to put people out or that Yeah, but yeah, I'm not that fast anymore. So it's amazing. The when when you do recognize it, and yeah, actually you need to spend time to sit down and think about the
Kylie Morton:future. Yeah. And I think what I realized over the long time of, you know, kind of, unknowingly applying this process is that I started to build a bit of a library like I knew which What my sort of, you know, little triggers were, which meant that when there were bigger things, like, it doesn't mean that I don't react
Daniel Franco:to write them down, or any library,
Kylie Morton:I just say, in my mind, I guess I just kind of know the things that are going to get me going, like, you know, being late, coming home to piles of tiny laundry. Yeah, you know, I just know that those are the little things. And I start and I can now pick up on the biological response to that like, like you just said, you feel your blood boiling your stress response retriggering again, and so I think when you can practice getting control with that, on those smaller things that are not as consequential. Yeah, that then you're able to shortcut it when there are bigger things, perhaps that are going on in your life. So I think you can only build resilience if you have an opportunity to practice on smaller things. If I don't, I don't know that
Daniel Franco:would start small. PA systems and build a change management programs. I mean that in Yeah. Like no, Jess, but it's the simple fact that, you know, you learn to take a few steps before you can run it. Yeah, it's that simple. Yeah. That's the scenario where Yeah, everything is a journey, everything we do, and becoming in gaining control of our own emotions is a lifelong journey, not just yeah. At the flick of a switch.
Kylie Morton:Yeah, someone said to me the other day that I was in this really challenging meeting, and I was presenting to some senior executives. And afterwards, I get some feedback that, you know, if you're really calm and controlled the whole way through that was, you know, really, I was quite impressed by that this person said that they didn't know that in the background, you know, wringing my hands. So it's not that I'm, you know, in control, and I don't feel those things. I think it's just you just over time, you just start to recognize when, when to let it take hold and when not to, you know, and I guess it's easier on things that you're practicing. Whereas when there are other things that come out of left field, yeah, you've had some vulnerable moments with my team, where you kind of think, oh, gosh, you didn't expect that. And it really flows you and it just takes a little bit longer for you to apply that process. Yeah, but it's there. I've got it. So I feel confident that I think resilience comes from feeling confident that you will be able to overcome something, even if you didn't do it today.
Daniel Franco:Yeah, absolutely. I think the the closer we get to understanding that when there is a problem, we will be able to deal with that. In that moment. I think the next step comes from being able to then not think about it not going to bed and keep yourself up at night and play those scenarios back. I think that's the next phase that we can work on. I'm not by any stretch, an expert in resilience or anything. I read a lot. That's Yeah, I come from I have a lot of books. You walked in and saw my library of books as you Yeah. So I just read a lot. But Michelle, our business partner of Synergy IQ, she runs a program resilience, I've learned so much. But yeah, I think it is a snake. So So you started off understanding the standing the trigger, what's the next day?
Kylie Morton:Yeah, so calling yourself out, then the second one is to get curious and really think through that, through that response that you're having. So, you know, what are my previous experiences that are causing me to think this way? You know, which is so pertinent in change, because, you know, sometimes we react to something, you know, a reorg, or, you know, a new system or something like that. And we were surprised by the reaction that we might have, but it's probably because the last time something like this was implemented, it wasn't great. Yes. You just kind of remembering those things. So I think it's just important to think through Well, why am I reacting like that this time? Is that something that you know, is real? Or is it something that's perceived? You know, is this something where perhaps I could think differently about it? Is there something funny about the situation or just having a few questions?
Daniel Franco:Have I got all the information exactly about making you making a judgment or an emotional decision based on the fact that something hasn't been communicated properly?
Kylie Morton:Yeah. And I learnt, I went to a resilience course at summary, last late last year, and they, they're one of the instructors wrote down an acronym on the board, which is just stuck with me, which is the word Wait, W-A-I-T? What am thinking? So every time yo know, I call myself out, I kno that I've gone somewhere I don' want to be and then just like Okay, wait, you know, and thin through that. And then I'l usually dread then go to th third step, which is tha sharing of my street corner an try to find someone else to tal to about my thoughts, which ha that sort of double benefit o One I'm connecting with another So it's helping to relieve m own stress response. But to I' also getting a bit o perspective and seeing ho someone else might see that. An I think that whole process, yo know, that sort of step 123 call yourself out, get curiou and share your street corner. W en you do that enough times, ou can let it go. And that's ind of that force. Yeah, tha's the song
Daniel Franco:that's when you break it.
Kylie Morton:down. And I know that there are lots of life skills that underpin a step, like a four step process like that. Oh, it is. But yeah,
Daniel Franco:but that's the tip of the iceberg. Yeah, we're getting into the Elsa load again. But yeah, I think that really is is everyone's seen the picture of what's on top of the ocean? Is that iceberg, and then there's this big behemoth piece of ice. That's good. Everything else underneath it. resilience. Yes. That internally,
Kylie Morton:yeah. has to absolutely, yeah. Yeah,
Daniel Franco:it's a is a, you said that there's a place that the business has to play? What do you think that is?
Kylie Morton:I think businesses have a responsibility to understand these things that we're talking about now understand their people to understand. So businesses, let's clarify leaders.
Daniel Franco:Yeah. Who are these? Who are these people that need to understand, I think
Kylie Morton:it's the people who are driving and implementing change, like who made the decision makers, the people who are saying, we're going to do this, this is the direction we're taking our organization in, these are the changes we want to make, I think those people have a responsibility to make sure they're minimizing the opportunity for people to react in a negative way, there's a tendency to think that reactions to change are something that something to ignore, maybe or you know, that, you know, if we, if we don't think too much about it, it'll go away, but it never, ever does. And I and I believe that, you know, I have a responsibility as an individual, to know how I'm going to react to change. But I think that my leaders and the people making decisions inside businesses have a responsibility to make sure they're planning those changes effectively, and creating the spaces that people need to react, so that we can move through that process and adopt.
Daniel Franco:So you talked about the 8020 rule earlier. Yeah. And he mentioned. So I'm interested in what you just said there that. Look, as a leader, and you would be privy to this many times the you understand that you're going to get a bit of kickback, from from the people within the business, it's not going to appease everyone, there are going to be people who are going to be disgruntled, go home complain, start a little bit of an internal Civil War, it happens, right. And change from a leadership level comes at from, I'd like to think it always comes from the best place. Yeah, we know. It comes from what this person made the decision they're making at that time, to the best of their ability from their straight from their street corner. Correct. So these leaders, they need to understand other people's street corners before they make that change. Because if that's the case, then how do you? How do you play with the simple fact that you're going to be fighting against other people not fighting? Yeah. Working with other people to understand their perspective? And but all where do you draw the line and just say, actually, you know, you guys know, he actually ended to put up with this, because this is what is best for business right now. Yeah. You know, where does all that come into play?
Kylie Morton:I, I believe that, you know, that scenario that you're describing is a traditional bell curve, you know, there will always be people who are annoyingly excited about something, and people who will be really disgruntled. And I think we spend sometimes too much time trying to work with the people who may never get there. Yeah. You know, and I think that when I talk about the responsibility of leaders, it's the responsibility for you know, that that healthy, normal reaction to a change, which, you know, I don't know what this is, I'm not sure if it's good for me, you know, can you help me work through that? For me? Yeah, yeah. And so that's the piece I think that we should be focusing on? Oh, yeah, absolutely. And the disgruntled bee, I think there's, you know, our responsibility to understand it, and to provide space for it, to listen to those thoughts and feelings. But ultimately, there is a point where, you know, you know, you're not going to bring everyone along with you. And that can get to spaces where you start to talk about how you would coach someone through that particular situation. But you can't please everyone. No, and that's okay. It's okay not to please everyone, but I do see too many examples where Were pleasing to few. Yeah, yeah. Well, we
Daniel Franco:all see it. Yes. It in the news every day. Yeah. It's the fine line. I think that's why leadership is so tough. And I think that's why we encourage leaders to work on themselves. Yeah. And Grow themselves, because you're gonna make a decision at some point in your life where people are going to be pissed off. Yeah, it's inevitable, it's gonna happen. It's then about trying to minimize that effect, by the way you go about it. Or it's trying to minimize that effect by seeing other people street corners, and you do all that pre work, but it's due at the end. And after doing all that, you're still going to, yeah, they're still going to be some people, those people I believe, potentially going to be left behind.
Kylie Morton:Yeah, that's right. And that's a choice. Really,
Daniel Franco:their choice. Yeah.
Kylie Morton:But I like to think that we can give them that choice. You know, that choice to to say, well, I've heard, I've heard the perspective of my leaders, and I understand the context of the decision of this business. And I still choose to go this way to stay at this end of the bell curve. Yeah. I just don't know that we give them that choice, because we just create too much room for people to, you know, use the lack of explanation and the lack of inclusion as a reason why, yeah, they're staying at that end.
Daniel Franco:So tell are interested in you're building a team from scratch? Yeah. You know, you know, well, that is different, actually, you know, what, I want to start with working in a defense involved. Okay. And then building a team. So working in a defensive environment. Number one, how do you place that within your own world? And I asked the question, I asked that with sincerity in the sense that there are some, you know, yeah, moral issues that go on with shipbuilding and bhp have the same thing with, with, you know, digging up the earth, there's all these environmental issues. How does that see with you?
Kylie Morton:Yeah, I would, I would be lying if I said that it, you know, doesn't sit on easy with me, there are elements of every business I've ever worked for, where I know that I'm not entirely comfortable with everything that we do. And I don't know that that's industry specific. You know, I used to work for L'Oreal cosmetics, which I loved because I got free makeup. But you know, there's an element. Yeah, that's right. It's an element of that industry that, you know, is is not great for our environment, either. I think what I try to focus on is some, you know, it's not necessarily within my control, what organizations do, like what they choose to make, it is within my control who I choose to work for. Yeah. But I think that companies like Ba, who are providing 1000s of jobs, and dedicating to a capability that will stand the test of time, it's, it's a worthwhile pursuit to help the people in that organization. And I also think that, you know, whether or not some of the products that we make, let's face it, they're not making soft toys, we know that. But those products are often used for good.
Daniel Franco:But I also believe that the innovation that comes from it, it's amazing, it's amazing, and what it's doing for the world, the amount of money that they're putting into study and research and development, we see that trickle through society, you know, Wi Fi started off in the early 50s. Before that, I don't exact dates, but it was and then we saw it come mainstream, late, you know, late 1900s. So I just think the US Yeah, I put that hat on. And he says that in the sense that it's creating some amazing jobs. Yeah, the innovation that's coming through is fantastic. But yeah, I just think we wish we had more of a greater good.
Kylie Morton:What I know is that it is not within my control whether countries will take arms against each other. Yeah. But I know that, you know, the people who work for BAhave a deep, deep sense of pride, that the work they're doing is protecting the people who are in those situations. It's
Daniel Franco:not for our faces.
Kylie Morton:Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, taking
Daniel Franco:care of families who are living here and everything. Yeah, that's right. So yeah, so moving on from that. Sorry, I digressed a little bit. The building of a team Yes. Is something that a lot of people are sort of place within sometimes they tend to take on too much themselves. And yeah, I want to go through the recruitment is too hard. No, the How did you? What are some of the pitfalls that you came across? Yeah, from building that team and what some of the wins that you had as well.
Kylie Morton:It's been a huge learning curve for me, I think, you know, for context, like I was, I was an individual contributor this time, you know, two years ago. And then, you know, there was one other person in the team with me, at this time last year. And now I think we have about 10 people in the team. And yeah, we we sort of on boarded roughly one person every month. And there's two things that have been part of that journey for me. So one, just the actual skill of building a team. I think that's something in and of itself. And, and actually the right pacing. Yeah, yeah. And I think I have been so lucky in that some people inherit teams, I've been able to build one right from the very beginning. And so that's had Yeah, pitfalls and wins. But the other journey as well is actually me learning how to lead. I think I had carefully cultivated this career where, you know, I didn't have direct reports. And then I was, you know, consulting and advising and coaching and helping and, you know, but ultimately, probably with not too much responsibility for the people that I was really working with. And so that's completely different now. And I want to be really good at it. But I'm new at it, too. So I'm learning you got to make mistakes. Yeah, that's right. Yeah.
Daniel Franco:Every day. That's Gabrielle Yeah. Yeah, it's hard.
Kylie Morton:Yeah. Yeah. But I think I'm sorry. Okay, so what have I learned. So the first thing I learned really quickly, was, the interview process is a terrible way to really know someone. And that's, you know, it's open to fault really, that you meet someone Watford two hours, probably at most, and then offer them a role. And so, you know, because that experience with them is so small, you don't always get it right. But on the whole, I think I've got it right. And, you know, when we've learned perhaps, that we didn't have the right fit, it's never been because of technical skill, I think that, you know, we've always brought people into the team who have been great at their jobs, like they know what to do. But what we have learned is that there's a specific type of change manager that successful at Ba, and it's the type of change manager that's able to adapt and pivot, and to and to let go of the process if you need to. So just go in and, you know, I'm just going to do this, you know, this little bit here, provide this bit of coaching there, you know, help with communication material over there, like just small things, and, and to be able to draw, reward and satisfaction from small things, I think, is a skill that we've needed. So where we've had experiences where people might not be, are not able to draw that reward from small things really do need to see the end to end delivery to be able to feel like they did a good job. That hasn't always worked for us. So we've so I've learned that like, I've learned that it's less about technical skill. And as an aside, Pratt when I say it, because there's people like you read like, 10 million books that tell you that and yeah, but I learned it. Yeah, it's not the technical skill. It's all of those other mindsets and attitudes. Yeah, it's it's the human being behind it. Yeah. Yeah. If
Daniel Franco:they are they on board with the purpose that you're on board with? Couldn't get on the same bus? Yeah. Because you're technically most people. They go through uni. They technically pretty sound. Yeah, well, they do. So now it's about personality and understanding who you are. And what makes it you know, how do you react under pressure? How do you react when you get told you need to do something by a certain time and that, you know, that's going to happen to pick up a fast woods. Yeah. Put your head down and get on with it and try to deliver for the team and for the greater good. So yeah, it's an interesting world.
Kylie Morton:Yeah, I think I tried really hard to bring diversity into the team. It is tricky with change management, because there's not a lot of diversity from a gender perspective.
Daniel Franco:There was we had, we had a team of plus 10 and I was, you know, in the team, so yes, I do.
Kylie Morton:I feel like I'm balancing it out for the rest of ba which is like mostly male also. But But you know, I want diversity in the team. But that's what I think I've realized that the diversity comes through, you know, how people go about doing things and and the street corners they're willing to share. So what we've got now is a team that have all come from completely different backgrounds, and who all managed change in a slightly different way. But who hand on heart can say that they are advocates for the people at VA great. I think that kind of trumps everything it does, yeah.
Daniel Franco:So how do we get more men into what is it because they go more the project management space Do you think
Kylie Morton:Yeah, And I feel like when I, when I have an opinion about this, I'm generalizing, you know, and I do wonder if it's got something to do with the perception that change management's a soft skill. And, and I think, you know, historically women have been better at picking up on the nuances of emotion and, and feel more comfortable asking what some men might consider to be personal questions. You know, I think there's a difference between vulnerability. Yes, yeah, yeah. And so I just wonder if perhaps there's a stigma maybe associated with that as a discipline? I don't know for sure. But I want to, that's what I want to change at bay. Like I see lots of men who, once we talk about, you know, the science behind change management. I call that that makes a lot of sense. I could do that. Yeah. And so yeah, we were trying our hardest to kind of round out.
Daniel Franco:It's funny. I've often thought about this. And I've been asked that, you know, there's photos of our team. And I'm the only guy in it. Yeah. And there was this one photo that I was the only male in it, but are standing in the middle. And I saw her never forget someone said, that looks odd. Yeah. Because it almost felt like this. The way they perceived it was that the team was standing around me. Oh, yeah. And I was just like, how completely wrong you're like, I'm irrelevant in this business? Yes. Because I we rely so much more on the expertise of our of our consultants in the team compared to me that just sort of sits in the background and manages everything else. So but the I've often thought about it, and man, I believe, and I don't want to get into this gender sort of thing. But then I think the way the brain works, I guess is we just like to fix things we like to see in results, right? So project management probably is a little bit more appealing because I, we get given a task to deliver a widget, and we deliver widget, and we sort of say cool, we've delivered that widget awesome. And that's sort of the way our brain works. And this whole change management piece, it's very intangible in the sense that it's delivery and working with people and helping them deliver that widget as opposed to so there's no sort of I don't know I that's kind of where I've got it sitting at. But I don't know if that's correct. Because the change management phase, I'm actually not a qualified Change Manager. I've just worked with so many of them that I know more about it. Yeah. And I think that I could probably walk into any business and do the change because I know the process. I know the attorney or the other or all the above just by seeing it every day, probably working on proposals every day. So I know that. Yeah. But so I actually think it's really, really interesting. Yeah. And, and I'm constantly knocking on door, I just had a conversation yesterday, we've got one of the guys in our team is a training partner. His name's Andrew, he's been on this podcast as well. And he works with helping businesses through their training programs to say for instance, ba puts in a new new system, a new product, new software, how do we then make sure that the people actually understand how to use this? So Andrew, and someone like Andrew will come in and yeah, whether it's face to face, whether it's building a program, whether it's online, learning, whoever it might be, who put together whatever the company needs, and roll it out. And so we had this conversation yesterday about Have you ever thought about, like, stepping into the change piece as well? He's like, Oh, yeah, I have really interested in actually. So he's going on that journey as well of, because he's doing the training element where he can see an outcome, but now he's thinking actually, this this really good pace of actually just getting people on a journey, which is Yeah, really, really
Kylie Morton:wonder if it's come from like the you know, I mean, change management as a discipline is relatively new. Maybe it's come from, you know, that sort of origin of it through our HR kind of lens has a skew towards women. And so then it's about shaking, shaking that off, in a sense, isn't it that you know, it's a people, it's just a people thing, and that's a soft skill? And, you know, not all men are good at that. And I just, I don't know, I just reject that. I don't, I think that men are as good as women, at picking up on all of those nuances and all the contextualization that's needed to implement change. I just think that we haven't spent the time to educate people about it.
Daniel Franco:I think you're right, though it is relatively Yeah. I mean, the changes always been around. So it's not new from a change perspective. But it's new from a focus. Yeah, its focus on the human element, the journey, partly organizational part of the purpose part as opposed to just delivering the widget. That's right. Back in the day with we needed we needed to deliver a car on time in the you know, in the industrial revolution, and was get that cost through the through the workshop to the end. We don't really care how it gets there, just do it.
Kylie Morton:And I think that's why we will start to see a shift in the demographics towards men in change management because that has been that the historic View of you know, it's not like a suck it up kind of view like, and I think that's everything, you know, men have always been asked to get over it, you know, to just suck it up and move on, you know, be a man. Isn't that that Yeah, right. And that's changing. Like we're now starting to see that that doesn't work, and it never has worked. And that's why we have so many challenges with mental health for men in high suicide rates, because we're asking them to do something that's inherently not natural, which is to ignore the response and the reaction that they're having to change. If we stop ignoring it, and start working with it, and through it, then we all adopt change. And we're all energized by it. And we're better for it.
Daniel Franco:Yeah. Because men that put that pressure on themselves. Oh,
Kylie Morton:yeah, maybe. But it's systemic, though. Yeah.
Daniel Franco:bmm is generally said to bite your dad. Yeah. Grandpa. Yeah. Yeah. As opposed to, I would. I don't ever recall anyone in my family who was female telling me to step up and be a man. I've never, ever experienced that. But I've absolutely experienced from from Yeah, so I think it's, we put our pressure on ourselves, and then go into this little pizza. Yeah.
Kylie Morton:And I see unique challenge in a company like Ba, because you think the demographic of that company is primarily men. And so that's, you know, a huge proportion of our workforce, who have never or rarely been given permission to feel their emotions when they are presented with change. So there's a big unpacking of that, I think, and, and creating a safe space for that to be normalized. And I think that's I don't know, I see that as my role. Like, that's the legacy I want to leave is, you know, a workforce of, of individuals who are really comfortable with the way they react to change and know how to work through it. And businesses, leaders, decision makers, who are also comfortable with that fact.
Daniel Franco:Alright, we generally finish off our podcast with some rapid fire questions.
Kylie Morton:Okay. News. Yeah. Okay.
Daniel Franco:Well, first one is one that I asked every single time and is what is your favorite book? And if you can't answer from a favorite book, what is one book that you have gifted the most to someone in the sense that you've all you've told them to read it as a way of learning? Yeah.
Kylie Morton:I have a few favorite books, actually. Yeah. So I guess recent history. I have really enjoyed Berne Browns data. That's been great.
Daniel Franco:We didn't pay Yeah, we didn't pay to do that. No. No show runs. Data lead course. One coming up in a week or so.
Kylie Morton:Yeah, it's just such a cool book. Yeah. So I really like that that's
Daniel Franco:held true. A whole series, every single bullshit.
Kylie Morton:podcast, it's amazing to
Daniel Franco:see you talk about vulnerability. Her podcast is fantastic. talk about vulnerability. And I am digressing because it's supposed to be quickfire. But anyway, her her first book, the gifts of imperfection. I don't reckon I've ever read a book where I've liked, and you know, I'm gonna go out of the social norm here. I cried my eyes out. Yeah. I have never been more impacted by a book. That was a couple of years ago, I read and I just remember, I was even driving. I was listening to an audio book, I think. And I was driving along the road. And like, just breaking out. It just hits all the right. All the nerves that you and all the lies that you tell yourself. Yeah, I think that's the bit that I got the most out of.
Kylie Morton:Yeah, I think like that, when she talks about the myth that that, you know, trust comes before vulnerability and that it's actually the other way around. Yeah, it's just, yeah. Oh, yeah. Of course. You're right.
Daniel Franco:Yeah, resources. Yeah. Yeah, sorry. Dare to Lead. Yeah.
Kylie Morton:Okay. So Dare to Lead. The other one that I really I read last year that I loved was becoming by Michelle Obama. Oh, yes. That was just a wonderful insight. You know, such a strong woman, but also, again, that vulnerability, like she spoke about her experiences in the White House and I don't know, I guess she thinks she's, you know, they're gonna put on a front about how great it is. She was really open about some things that were not so great. So yeah, I really, really enjoyed that. And then the other one, in terms of a long time favorite that I recommend to others is The Book Thief. Okay, yeah. I can't remember as Marcus. I can never say his last name, Shaq or something like that. But I remember reading that and that was a book that really moved me. But I think that, you know, the concept of representing death with humanity, you know, was really fascinating for me. Yeah, that's really great. Yeah.
Daniel Franco:Put that in the show. Alright, so other than Elsa, if you could be one Disney character, who would it be?
Kylie Morton:one do you think character?
Daniel Franco:Well, okay, which Disney character would best describe you?
Kylie Morton:I don't know the answer to that. I don't know. I like lots of Disney characters. I don't know if they would describe.
Daniel Franco:Okay, so which one would you be? What do you look up to?
Kylie Morton:Which one do I look up to? Well, okay, so. So total disclaimer. I basically cry at Disney movies all the time. I don't know how many times I've watched them.
Daniel Franco:Well, they're so well written.
Kylie Morton:Yeah, they are. Yeah. And also, I think I think I had this dream one day that I was going to be an Australian Idol Star. I wanted to be a singer. So whenever I like, all the music comes on. inside me, I just cry.
Daniel Franco:Is that gonna be before or after the neuroscience?
Kylie Morton:Actually, I remember when I turned 30. And I cried. And my mom was like, What? Why? It's not that bad. I'm like, Yeah, but no, I can't be Australian, I
Daniel Franco:have the voice. And there's a 73 year old girl.
Kylie Morton:I can think about I just had that dream. So I really like, I feel like it's a little cliche, but I really like Moana. I think that's a cool character. And also the kid out of Coco, what's his like? His name is? Miguel, I think he's awesome, too. You know, just just I think, you know, watching those characters with that sort of struggle between who they know they are like, actually first learning who they are, who they know they are, but then with the expectations that are on them.
Daniel Franco:Give up attitude as well.
Kylie Morton:Yeah, yeah. So yeah. Also that Coco maybe it's just such a beautiful, maybe
Daniel Franco:it is. Alright, what's one thing in your bucket list?
Kylie Morton:I really want to go to Russia. I don't even know why. I know. I do know why. Okay, so back to the book. I love Anna Karenina, the book. And so when I read that book, I just had this really romantic view of Russia. And I've always really wanted to go there, which is only being fueled further by that recent stand show that's on at the moment called the Great, okay, which is about Catherine the Great. It's highly inappropriate. You know, it's got sort of some foul language in it and funny concepts, but I'm really enjoying that. Yeah, so definitely go to Russia.
Daniel Franco:Favorite TV show?
Kylie Morton:Again, I feel like I don't always have like a I maybe I live in the moment.
Daniel Franco:But when that comes to mind,
Kylie Morton:yeah, right. So recently, I have really and thoroughly enjoyed killing Eve. Probably season one and two. And the Americans. I've been six seasons of the American sport. Yeah, that's good. Yeah.
Daniel Franco:I said a while ago,
Kylie Morton:yeah, I'd never watched it and. And then I finally managed to get myself a foxtel subscription. And I just been really great.
Daniel Franco:Last question. I love this question. And I'm putting you on the spot here. But what's your favorite dad joke?
Kylie Morton:Oh. Favorite dad joke? Well, we don't we don't have dad jokes because I have three little boys. Okay. And so we've been telling lots of knock knock jokes. Okay. But I do love a really silly joke. So anyway, so the couple that are going around the house at the moment, you're ready. Okay, say Knock knock. Who's there? Dwyane
Daniel Franco:Dwayne who
Kylie Morton:Dwayne the bath before I drown.
Daniel Franco:That's horrible. Terrible. It's so good. It's so bad. What kids call me knock knock joe, I'm gonna get in on this data. But why they came to become a good dad. Knock knock. So I'll talk to you knock knock. I did up.
Kylie Morton:I did up Who? I love it. Yeah, I love it.
Daniel Franco:I laughed for hours. Right?
Kylie Morton:again, and again. It's a good thing about kids. Is that I just don't get the I'm sorry. So one other one that we like a lot is so Knock knock. Europe, Europe who.
Daniel Franco:walks right into that. Brilliant. All right, we'll end the day. Thank you so much for your time. It's been amazing chatting to you. It's so good to hear your journey and growing and it's you know what I think is really fantastic to see that a company like BA is taking on board chair And I really understanding it. I think that's a testament to you. I think that's, you know, you've been able to take them on that journey as well. And you and the team, so well done to that. So just quickly Lastly, how do we find you?
Kylie Morton:I'm terribly I have, so you can email me. Yeah, my email. It works. Some Kiley dot Morton at ba systems.com. But also have a LinkedIn profile. So completely open to you know, message.
Daniel Franco:Connecting perfect. Yep. Beautiful Oregon. That's it. Thank you very much. We'll catch you next time. Thank you. This was fun. It was.
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