#49 - Michelle T. Holland, Director of Synergy IQ on Imperfect Leadership – How to let go of perfection and lead with authenticity

Michelle T Holland is an international best-selling author, speaker, consultant, and the Founder and Creative Director of Synergy IQ. With over 20 years of experience and as a leader in creating business excellence through people, Michelle has helped thousands of leaders to build their confidence and skills in change. In addition, she is an experienced culture change expert, a certified Dare to Lead™ facilitator, an accredited Human Synergistics practitioner, and a strategic advisor. The author of 3 books, including the best seller “Culture Inc”, Michelle speaks at conferences, runs workshops, consults and challenges thinking. 

Michelle dreams of a world where people are accepted and valued for their unique contributions, feel safe to be who they authentically are, and are inspired to fulfil their potential. 

In this episode, Michelle gives us a sneak peek into her upcoming book Imperfect Leadership, which is an invitation for leaders just to start looking at leadership differently, start looking at this perfect version of leadership that they've created in their head and start unpacking why we're striving for this perfection of leadership.  

More about the Imperfect Leadership book: 

“You will always fail when you are trying to be a perfect leader; you are a human after all.” Said, my mentor. After a particularly challenging week trying to be everything to everyone, I was ready to give up. This was the beginning of my journey to embrace imperfect leadership. 

Imagine a world where people are able to give their best every day and reach their full potential. A world where we leverage strengths so that our leaders can be inspiring, caring and successful, and workplaces that support our well-being and emotional lives… 

Contrary to this utopia, we have created a world where our good leaders feel they are failing because they are not great. They look at the textbook leader with shame and longing and work themselves to exhaustion trying to meet this perfect yet unrealistic view of leadership. This talk explores the phenomenon of working extremely hard, compromising our wellbeing, and trying to be the perfect leader. It’s time for a revolution in leadership that appreciates us for our fallible humanness. 

Key takeaways: 

• Where the pressure for perfect leadership comes from and why it's harmful to business success 
• What is an “imperfect leader”, and why it's the only kind of leader for the future 
• How embracing your own imperfection will create strength and courage you never knew possible 
• Four (4) pillars of an imperfect leadership mindset and skillset so you can be a successful (and healthy) leader now and into the future.

Where to find Michelle T. Holland

• LinkedIn
• Website

Join the conversation on Synergy IQ LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram (@synergyiq) and please support other leaders by liking, subscribing and sharing this podcast. 

Access SynergyIQ Website to get to know more about us. 

Say hello to our host Daniel on LinkedIn.

Transcript

Synergy IQ: 0:01

Welcome to Creating synergy where we explore what it takes to transform. We are powered by Synergy IQ. Our mission is to help leaders create world class businesses where people are safe, valued, inspired and fulfilled. We can only do this with our amazing community. So thank you for listening.

Daniel Franco: 0:20

So welcome back to the creating synergy podcast. My name is Daniel Franco, your host today and today we have the remarkable human being. Michelle T. Holland,

Michelle Holland: 0:34

some of the tea today.

Daniel Franco: 0:37

Shout T Holland, Director of synergy IQ, founder of synergy, IQ. Thank you for coming back. Michelle, this is episode I think we've read your father's if not more few times. Okay. Yes, yes. Thank you for coming back.

Michelle Holland: 0:52

Thank you for having me back. Yes, thanks.

Daniel Franco: 0:55

So you've, you've just been off on holidays, much to my distress. As a co director of this business, and you're my business partner. We do we do encourage reflection time and time to get away and really spend in your own thoughts and, and repair the the neurons that are floating around in the brain. You spent their time away, actually put it doing more work. And what I call it work. You call it?

Michelle Holland: 1:34

flow flow. Yeah, my happy space.

Daniel Franco: 1:38

So you've written your fourth book. Yeah. Imperfect leadership. I really, when you told me that you went away. And you written this book, and you've smashed it out in these couple of weeks. And, and I know you've been working on for a while, but you finalize it all. The the the word imperfect leadership is something that you and I talk about quite a fair bit. Can we have, you know, this deep dive a little bit into that top of the line, because it is something that we talk about with our clients and leaders and, and friends and family and everyone about what it actually means to be a leader? Yeah, and how we can be imperfect data? Yeah,

Michelle Holland: 2:19

yeah, I'm happy to do that. I'll just touch on first one of my observations. And so every time I've said to men, that I'm taking a two week break. And the majority of that break is to have some focused time by myself, I'm taking myself away by myself to be able to focus to be able to create to be able to write, they say, oh, haven't have a nice holiday, might not a holiday. When I say it to women, I say the same thing to women, they go, Oh my God, it would be so amazing. If I could take the time for myself to actually think, to reflect, to dive in to be creative, Wouldn't that just be an amazing thing to do. And I just that observation of the differences between the genders, it's just like, screams at me, because part of this whole process of being an authentic leader, because that's what it's all about the book is called imperfect leadership. Because we want people to be able to be as authentic as possible. I want people to be able to take time out for their selves to be able to give their brains a break, so they can be more productive and more creative. But until we get to a point where we're releasing perfection from our lives and releasing our egos, we're never going to actually get there. It's always going to be you know, are you going off on holiday? Or are you going off on doing this? Or oh, my god, I can't believe you're being there by yourself, or I can't do that. You know, it's always that I'm not going to be able to do that. The world still turned for those two weeks when I was not there. Even synergy IQ still turned. It was two weeks is I've now found out 15 years in synergy IQ time, but that's okay. Right. So the world turned when I was taking this time to be able to be creative. And yeah, I was way more productive in that time as well as far as being able to create and be able to release into the world, the thinking and the research and the experiences that I've had over the last couple of years in this place of authentic leadership. So I think that was that's just a really important thing to note with, with our, you know, need to be whoever we think we need to be.

Daniel Franco: 4:50

Yeah, there's a lot going on in my head when you talk about just getting away and, and switching off there. I think you're right in saying that that men would probably see it as a holiday, it's an opportunity to get away. Maybe it's an language barrier there. But that the idea of, you know, if you read there's so many books on, you know, we read a lot, right? There's there's books like deep work and all these sorts of things. Were actually finding the time to be creative. is such an important. Yeah. And almost recharging the batteries. Yeah, in a sense, isn't it? Yeah.

Michelle Holland: 5:31

Yeah. There were years ago, I read an article and I haven't been able to find it since was based on some research. So if anybody out there can help me find that article be awesome. But it was years and years and years ago, so maybe 10 years ago, I read this. And they did a study on answering emails in the morning. So majority of people that walk into their office, they open up Outlook, and they'll answer their emails in the morning, what they actually discovered was, that had the same impact of on productivity as sitting, smoking a joint. So walking into your office, and doing your emails first has the same impact on your creativity and productivity as sitting in your office smoking a joint. All right. So it's a really interesting thing to be thinking about. So I think from that moment on, I was very much I need to do this differently. If I'm going to be able to make an impact in the world, then my impact is not about answering emails, My impact is not about sitting in meetings, My impact is not about, you know, having five minute conversations with everybody that I meet, because then that takes up my whole day. That's not how I'm going to be able to make an impact, which meant that I had to start on a journey where I was doing things that was seen as being weird, I was doing things that was not the norm. I was I had to accept that people saw me as a different kind of worker or leader or whatever. That was the start of my authenticity journey. You know, and I remember being in an organization years and years ago, and this is probably where the experience and the research started for me, as far as the culmination of this book, finally, is I would sit there and everybody was almost competing with each other about how exhausted they were. They were competing with each other about who sent an email. Latest at night, you know, I sent my email at 12 midnight, while I was up till ones sending emails. And I'm like, is that really what you want to be known for? Like that was going through my head at the time? Really? Is that what you want to be known for that? One, you can't get your job done during the day. You're not prioritizing your, your health, your rest yourself, your family over emails, like really? Is that what you want to be known for? And I know for myself, personally, that's not what I want to be known for, I want to be known for making an impact, I want to be known for making a difference. I want to be known for having a opinion, having some thinking that sits behind things, I do want to be known for being a bit weird, and I'm okay with that. Hence, I want to be an imperfect leader. Like I really want to be an imperfect leader. So I'm happy to be a bit weird. Yeah,

Daniel Franco: 8:20

there are some there's some definite boundaries in regards to what is considered, you know, you got to be the first to lay it first to be in and last to leave. And yeah, very, everything is very time bound. I mean, meetings all day, you know, the, the sort of stereotypes of what it means to be a leader, you're, you're definitely going outside of the box and being your own your own style, which is, you know, thank you for doing that. And showing me the way in that sense as well. It is funny, though, when you talk about smoking a choice, like the effect essentially what went through my head a warning, what went through my head was you know, if you know, if that is if that is in effect then as as a as a business, the need to consider your people's actions, right, absolutely. And what they do from especially from a productivity point of view, because I've read also another book why we sleep by Matt Walker talks about if you've had less than five hours sleep emails at one two o'clock in the morning, getting up at six is is equivalent having four to five hours sleep is equivalent as being drunk, right? Certainly it is. We do we as late as need to be considered of that when people are coming to work and their productivity and all that sort of stuff. So

Michelle Holland: 9:37

yeah, 100% I think where I got to with this and where I started going, oh, there's got to be I've got to write this stuff down and get this into a book was a number of years ago, I was doing a lot of coaching with leaders like a lot of coaching at at one point and I was working with people who I would say were good managers, let the good managers and Good leaders know that weren't, you know what you would go? Would you write books about potentially right? But I'm like, they're actually really good leaders. And what I was experiencing with them was they were burning themselves out. They were criticizing themselves for not being the version of great leader that I had in their head. And I was finding this was a common occurrence across like all genders, it wasn't just one gender, it was all genders, it was happening. All cultures, it was happening, it didn't matter who I was talking about, it was the same thing. They're all Australian based people. So it might be part of the Australian culture. But there was definitely what Dr. Brene Brown would call hustling for their worth, you know, there's this constant hustle for my worth. And I was I was, I was challenged by this myself, because I saw myself in the same pattern of, you know, I saw myself in the same pattern and getting burnt out on a regular basis, trying to try to be this thing that had created in my mind. And what I discovered with the leaders that I was coaching and myself, is that there is this caricature of leader that we'd create it in our mind. And it comes from all of the different you know, there's TED talks, there's websites, there's expectations, there's, you know, if you write on a board, all the things that people expect from their leader, like on a whiteboard, you fill it up and have to flip it around. There's a massive amount of expectation on leaders. And there's almost this thinking that, okay, now I've gotten into this position, and I've got people reporting to me, I have to know all the answers, I have to be this superhero. That knows everything does everything fixes, everything is there for everyone is you know, compassionate, and empathetic while being like a doer and getting every achievement over the, you know, being strategic at the same time, and making sure that I'm the best, you know, all that sort of thing and bring my team together and creating my culture. You know, there's all of this stuff, and you just can go, like, layer, layer, and layer and layer and layer at layer. And I was just seeing these really good people, these really good humans burning themselves out, because they were trying to achieve something that for me, was a vision of perfection. That's just an achievable. So I think with the book, my purpose of writing the book is an invitation to these really good leaders and managers, that sometimes enough is enough, sometimes enough, actually is enough. And you can be your own kind of leader, like you can create it for yourself, you can be an authentic leader. And through the experience through the the the research that I've been doing, as well, and, and obviously, I've been accredited in Dr. Brene Brown's work. So her, her work has been a big influence for me in this space of imperfection, gathering all of that, as well as all of the the work around burnout, all the work around the research and the work around rest and sleep and how we need to be whole humans and how we actually need to be turning up into the world. You know, there's many places around, that are moving to like four hour workweeks and whatnot, because they're actually recognizing that people are less productive. When they're not taking care of themselves. You know, self care is a really big part of being an authentic leader, being able to think differently, and having time to think yeah, is a huge part of being an authentic leader.

Daniel Franco: 13:58

Oh, sorry. So many different thoughts. Anyone that's listening to this, that is in a leadership position is probably their heads going a million miles with 1000 questions. You know, being a leader that wants to do the most and be the best that he or she can be. That serves others. There's so much to do. There's so much to do as a leader. And I'm speaking from on behalf of what I think is the best leaders. They want to do as much as they can. And they want to achieve not only for themselves, but for the people that they serve. As much as they can. Yeah. How do you how do you manage how do you manage the high achievement with the ability to wanting to give and serve? To then pull back on that. Yeah. And and stop yourself from being because it's like those whole worlds they intertwine.

Michelle Holland: 15:11

Yes, they do. And the reality is the people who actually get burnt out are the ones that are not resting, then the ones that not taking care of themselves, the ones that don't have boundaries. So when I say self care, I'm talking mostly around boundaries, is self care. You can achieve amazing things, when you actually take care of this instrument, this human body instrument vessel, this vessel, because it's, if you're not taking care of your brain and your body, you're not going to achieve anyway, you might have a very long task list and you're ticking off your tasks, right, you might answer all your emails, you might even, you know, get a couple of projects over the line that seem like they're big projects, but I would really question about the meaning that sits behind it the actual outcome, like the bigger picture, the bigger purpose of that. So a lot of the people that I see that are what they call achievement focused, are actually task focused. They're not achievement focused. So achievement, focus means I'm working towards an outcome, like the end result is the important part. Task. Focus means the input is the important part. So like, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. And that's the important bit. And when I see that is there's not enough questioning around that there's not enough questioning of self. I mean, around that, why am I actually feeling the need to take off this really long task list? And am I actually achieving anything like, what am I actually achieving here? So I've got four key components that I believe are important for authentic leadership. Because, for me, I'm a very pragmatic person, like very, very pragmatic. So when I hadn't noticed, really. So for me to be able to rest. And you know, and I think I may have talked about this on this podcast or another podcast, I had quite a significant burnout at the end of 2019. So my physical health and my mental health was in not a good place. Yeah. And not not a good place. I

Daniel Franco: 17:28

remember a phone call after a workshop you ran. And yeah,

Michelle Holland: 17:31

I don't remember that phone call. That's the thing, you know, so I don't remember that phone call. So I had brain fog and all sorts of things. I thought I was having a heart attack. Yeah, you weren't in a good spot, getting Alzheimer's and all sorts of stuff. So I was in a really, really bad place. So from there, I had to learn about what was real for me and what wasn't. So I started researching into rest and sleep. And this some really great listened to a podcast by Joe Rogan. And I can't remember the guys name, but we'll put it in the show

Daniel Franco: 18:03

Matthew Walker. Well, I

Michelle Holland: 18:05

mean, it's why we sleep and it scared the living crap out of me. Like when I was listening to it, I'm like, Oh, my God, that is horrific. Right?

Daniel Franco: 18:18

Already. It was about sleep. It was about Senator Murphy walk. Yeah.

Michelle Holland: 18:21

So because I'd already read Adriana Huntington's book thrive, yeah, which was very much about her journey through this process. And she, she essentially woke up on her office floor, surrounded by a pool of her own blood, because she passed out from exhaustion, hit her head on Earth, on the corner of a table and then woke up in a pool of her own blood. And when, clearly, this isn't working for me, I need to do something different. So she again, that's fine, if you exactly that as a sign. So she started researching. So I read that book years ago. But being able to capture that information and research for me, because I am very achievement oriented. I've always been extraordinarily ambitious. I'm one of those people that people always go, I don't know how you fit all that stuff in. I don't either, I just kind of do. So I'm extraordinarily achievement oriented. But I think where I was, in my younger years, I was more task oriented, because I wanted to get shit done. That's really what it was all about. So when I looked at authentic leadership, and from more of a holistic point of view, it wasn't just about having time to sleep, having time to rest. It wasn't just about self care. It was, well I got to do that stuff. So that I can feel my own cup. You know, I think in metaphors quite a lot. And the metaphor I often think is, if I've got a glass of water, and my glass of water is completely empty, and you come to me because I want to serve and you come to me and you're thirsty. I can't help You. Whereas if I keep this cup even half full, that if you come to me and you're thirsty, I can actually serve and help. Right? So I'm no good to anybody, if I don't take care of myself. So, and I did that through research, I guess I'm a pragmatist, so I need to have real stuff to to pin it on. I can't just be told, yeah, you just go off and sleep and you're going to be great. I had to put a lot of time and effort and energy into that and recalibrate a lot of my lot of my bad habits around that stuff. But there's four key elements. What are those four key elements is be purposeful. Yeah, be effective. be effective. Yeah. Be pragmatic, pragmatic and be human. Be human. Yeah. Be human. And I've toyed with these quite a lot and they're the ones that I landed on it as me being the most meaningful for being able to be authentic and releasing imperfection. One of the things I ended up you know, my curiosity journey took me to Japan. Yeah. And my, one of the there principles in Japan is actually called wabi sabi. I don't know if you've heard of wabi sabi.

Daniel Franco: 21:15

Wasabi.

Michelle Holland: 21:16

Wasabi. wabi sabi is actually spelled wa Bei, actually, this is spelt in English. It's a it's built into the English letters, WA, Bei, s abi, but it said wabi sabi. And wabi sabi is the concept or the principle about embracing imperfection, okay. Most people have an understanding where they've come across the art of Kintsugi Oh, Kintsugi, yes, and Kintsugi is where, you know, pottery has been broken. And it's been put back together with gold or silver, or bronze, right. So metallic, and essentially, it goes from just being a plain old piece of pottery, and then a broken piece of pottery, to a beautiful piece of artwork. So as these concepts around, actually, there is beauty in the broken, there is beauty in imperfection, there is amazing things to be gained from releasing perfection in our lives and actually embracing imperfection. So I loved that concept. Because for me, you need to be able to let let go of, we need to let go of perfection, to enable us to let go of our ego, to enable us to let go of that task list and be more meaningful, to enable us to be authentic, we have to release that stuff from who we are, because that's what holds us down. That's where hustling for our worth comes from, that's where exhaustion of the status symbol comes from. That's where you know, I always have to be right and you can be wrong comes from I'm going to argue my my opinions, you know, like I say to my kids all the time, you are entitled to your own opinions, you are not entitled to your own facts.

Daniel Franco: 23:02

We don't need to be arguing about very relevant in today's society very

Michelle Holland: 23:05

relevant. Exactly, you are entitled to your own opinions, or you're not entitled to your own facts. So So with those principles, you know, sort of break it down. If you think about being purposeful, it really is about keeping your mind on the bigger picture, right? We want to be able to keep what's the end game here, what's bigger than me? I want to be meaningful in what I'm doing. So I want to meet

Daniel Franco: 23:29

someone's like, Simon Sinek start with why sort of stuff. Yeah,

Michelle Holland: 23:33

purpose have a purpose. That's exactly right. But it's also about attaching what I'm doing to that purpose. Right. So it's not just having the purpose and have it written on the wall or have it written in your diary or whatever. But it's making decisions associated with

Daniel Franco: 23:47

Is it connected to the business purpose? If we're talking about leadership, right, you're a leader, you can be a leader in you know, walks of life, yes, we work with businesses. So I'm going to go down that world of if I'm want to be purposeful, as a leader, do I need to connect with the purpose of the business? Or have I got my own purpose? Or is it a hybrid?

Michelle Holland: 24:06

I think it's both Yeah, you have, you have your own purpose. So same as you know, you have your own values, and a corporation has their own values, you have your own purpose. They have a purpose slash vision, mission statement, or whatever it is, when you align to that, that's when the magic happens, right? When your values align to your corporation, that's when the magic happens. If you are in a corporation, and you're constantly trying to do for them, and that doesn't align with your purpose, then you're not being authentic.

Daniel Franco: 24:37

Yeah, 100%

Michelle Holland: 24:37

you're just not being authentic. Can

Daniel Franco: 24:39

we break that down? And just to into like, if the purpose of a business is to do such and such right, we're on board. Let's use Tesla, Elon Musk thing the purpose of the vision is to is to spread the humanity far and wide across the galaxy and me as a leader, what is my purpose within that? Is it my is Do I look at my purpose as being purpose is to serve, or my purpose is to give or is to grow is to learn. We're like, what? How does that piece look?

Michelle Holland: 25:08

Yeah, yeah, I think that's a whole other story about what your individual purpose is. This is about being purposeful. Okay, so full of purpose, right? So it's about making sure

Daniel Franco: 25:22

filling your cup with the purpose that's required to deliver the result.

Michelle Holland: 25:26

Yeah, absolutely. And it might be that I'm sitting working on a project, I'm a project manager, let's say, and I've got a bunch of people around me, if I'm just looking at the tasks that are getting done, like just like, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, and forgetting about the reason for the implementation of this project. So say, I'm making a change that's going to impact our customer group. And it's going to provide, you know, better outcomes for them, or better communication mechanisms for them, whatever it is, if I lose sight of that purpose, then all I'll be doing is focusing on the input. And as soon as I start focusing on the input, then that's when projects go offline. And that's when we start to get into arguments about what's right and what's wrong. And who's doing the right thing who's not doing the right thing. And should we just be doing this task or not doing this task. If you're not purposeful in the work that you're doing, then you will absolutely go offline. And you won't be authentic in that as well. It would let it literally just be I'm tapping into stagnating, Happy Gilmore. So

Daniel Franco: 26:29

why won't you go? So, being purposeful like this? Because this is a big one, right? Number one, yeah. So it's creating a purpose for the result that you're trying to achieve?

Michelle Holland: 26:43

It's aligning yourself to the purpose of what you're trying to achieve. Yep. And anything that was using your eye on the big picture? Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And helping you're helping you and potentially others align to that purpose as well. That's the that's part of that. Can you know that the critical aspect, part of this being purposeful is a having a practice of reflection, we have to have a practice of reflection, because otherwise we will get onto that hamster wheel of task is hamster wheel of task. So there's no need to write this down. It's really about being purposeful in my actions, rather than being mindless. In my action. Yeah, that would be the opposite has been my most makes. And a lot of times in organizations where mindless in the tasks we're doing Yeah, well, very much

Daniel Franco: 27:36

being effective number to be effective is essentially easier said than done.

Michelle Holland: 27:40

Totally, totally. But this is part of getting shit done. Right. So yeah, sorry. Explicit warning on the on the podcast. So you've heard me say many, many times, you know, the, a great culture is about, you know, simply getting shit done. And don't be a jerk. Yeah, right. Don't be a jerk, get shit done. So this is part of that and being effective. So being effective is about not just again, ticking off the task list. being effective is how can I be better today than I was yesterday? How can I be better again, tomorrow as a as an individual? What can I do to strive for excellence and striving for excellence is very different than perfectionism. Alright, so quite often, I

Daniel Franco: 28:29

cannot be the best at what I'm doing. How

Michelle Holland: 28:30

can I be the best at what I'm doing? What do I need to learn to do that? What do I need to question to do that? What do I need to challenge myself?

Daniel Franco: 28:37

I don't manage my time.

Michelle Holland: 28:39

I manage my time to do that. That's right. How do I add value? Like, what value am I actually adding here? And I think that is a critical question. All leaders need to ask themselves and all people when I say leaders, I mean, all people, people are leaders, I have the potential to be leaders. So

Daniel Franco: 28:57

So can I just point out that being effective and getting shit done doesn't give you the excuse to treat people like shit, though.

Michelle Holland: 29:03

So I've got four key points to being authentic. Okay, so it's kind of like, that's exactly right. So there has to be a balance in all of these. Yeah, that's right. Because if you're just being effective, and you're just doing that, then you may be being a jerk. Yeah.

Daniel Franco: 29:18

Because if that's your own way, you're being effective when you're tearing down relationships.

Michelle Holland: 29:21

Well, that's exactly that would be a real challenge. Yeah, I would, I would challenge whether you are or not, and countability sits in that as well holding myself accountable, holding others accountable to us. You cannot be effective without accountability. It's just impossible. So next one is be pragmatic. So it's kind of my favorite.

Daniel Franco: 29:39

It's it's your buzzword is my resilience and innovation. All this stuff was is pragmatic,

Michelle Holland: 29:47

is pragmatic. And I think that I've gotten here because I have tried lots of different things.

Daniel Franco: 29:54

So explain your version of what your yeah should have.

Michelle Holland: 30:00

Yeah, absolutely. It's actually being real with self. Right. So being real with self is having the right kind of information. It's being evidenced based rather than, again, got the right to my opinion, the right to my own facts. Yeah,

Daniel Franco: 30:16

I read something on Facebook. Yep. Yep. He's not the right way to go about gathering. Got there?

Michelle Holland: 30:30

Yeah, that's right. I wouldn't say, Yeah, Facebook's probably the best research tool. It's not around 100%. Because it is full of it. Yes. But being pragmatic pragmatic as well is sometimes as leaders, we need to make decisions both for self and for others, that aren't going to be popular. But we actually have to just be pragmatic about making those decisions. Sometimes we need to be thinking about, alright, what's the impact on the individual, and I need to be thinking about the greater good, as well. And I know for myself, you know, 20 odd years in HR and sitting next to lots of managers, moving them through a process of, you know, having to say, let somebody go from the organization because they're just not able to contribute. And they're not adding value. That's hard for them to do if they're fully into the emotional state of the individual, and not keeping their eye on the big picture and not keeping their eye on the greater good. Because sometimes, we do need to release people from our teams so that our team can actually perform. And I think we had a conversation yesterday with a leader in our organization. And they said that exactly, they were a bit worried about, you know, letting this person go and people are going to be watching and what actually is going to happen, they're going to think I'm really terrible person. And actually the flip opposite happened, the team said, Thank you for taking care of that. That's amazing that you actually manage performance here, and that you actually hold people accountable. And that you did it with such grace as well, because that's the thing is when we have to make decisions. Individual versus the greater good is doing it with compassion and grace to enable that to happen that we, you know, it's a test of you. And as a leader, it's a test of your culture for how people leave your organization over how they stay. Yeah, that's

Daniel Franco: 32:24

pretty excited. That comment. Yes, yeah, we were all asked the question around being pragmatic, and seven habits. One of the, one of the habits in Stephen Covey's book, The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People is think win win. being pragmatic and thinking win win. Can I be done? Yes. Yeah,

Michelle Holland: 32:47

absolutely. Because it is win win. Yes, thing. If you're thinking you can't have Win Win, without thinking about the greater good. It's not possible to do that.

Daniel Franco: 32:58

So okay, so it's not win win for the person. In the two people in the room, it's a win for the greater good. And the person losing their job, that's not a winner.

Michelle Holland: 33:08

We'll see. I guess I I read that book very differently. Because to me, the concept of Win Win isn't about you having a win and me having a win. The concept of Win Win is that we've got the best outcome for all Yeah, that's fair. You're concerned. Yeah. So for me, that's about the greater good, that's about, you know, not just pandering to you, your Yes, sort of thing. So that's just how I'm I know, think about it is that perspective, it's the way it should have been interpreted. That's it. One of the big things in be pragmatic, as well, and across all of these things, is about setting boundaries, that we actually have to be pragmatic in the way in which we take care of ourselves in this and quite often I'll talk to leaders and you know, we're in leadership programming or coaching or whatever it might be. And I'll say to them, that you have to be actually okay, and get comfortable enough that we're not even comfortable, just okay, with the fact that other people won't like your boundaries, they'll get upset by your boundaries, that they'll challenge you in your boundaries that they will think your boundaries are not right. Or you actually have to be okay with that to be an authentic leader. You actually just have to go if this is a boundary that I need to be the best that I can be. It actually doesn't matter that everybody else is upset by it actually doesn't matter. That's hard. So none of these things are easy. It's easy to be an authentic leader because it's way easier to be a leader that just kind of goes with the flow or does what everybody else wants, you know, because it's much easier to do that. But you also get lesser outcomes.

Daniel Franco: 34:48

I love that you live to this, because that's what you do. Like I you set boundaries and you set him quite clearly. I struggle with him being a co business partner with you Well, well, early on I struggled with, I should say is exactly mean, you know, we mean you need time. What's that mean? We need to get done. And I guess that really comes down to I can't call you every moment of the day. What do you mean, that really comes down to my probably I need to I need to self reflect if I need you every minute of the day, but it's more, it was really about, I think breaking habits about undecidable. Yeah, that, yeah, that that's where if you set boundaries, you know, maybe a conversation might be, we're gonna have to change some of our behaviors and habits that we've got in place, it's gonna be hard. But once we get used to it, it's just a marking that it is going to be quite difficult.

Michelle Holland: 35:40

Yeah, we teach people how to treat us. Yeah, right. Thank you, Dr. Phil. We teach people how to treat us. So if we are constantly setting boundaries, and letting them fail and lose them, you know, fly away, if you are frustrated, because your team keeps bugging you at 830 in the morning, and you're not available until nine and you sort of, you know, I will figure it out. And I'll just be there or given a call or question the kid drop off and doing their thing. And next time, you're like, No, no, I'm not gonna be here till nine. And then they book again at 830. And you like Rush and rush and rush. If you're not holding them accountable for holding your vows your boundaries, then it's a detriment to yourself. It's like, what are you doing? Yeah, like, what? How are you turning later? That's it. That's exactly. Yeah, totally. So setting boundaries is about connection as well. So you're able to actually have better relationships when you have better boundaries. Yeah, we do for our kids, like setting boundaries and expectations with our children. We know through research, that when children have boundaries, they feel safer, as well. If they don't have clear boundaries, they don't feel safe

Daniel Franco: 36:49

rule life example. Right. And this is literally a very recent example. I, you have a set boundary in place that I absolutely agree with, you know, that you need and you do what you need to do with that, in that space. I dangled a carrot in front of you how I can get you out of that boundary and you know, sent you an email with the word optional in there for you, Michelle. How do you feel in those moments? Any feel with someone not not oversteps the boundary but walks the line that the boundary is created? Oh,

Michelle Holland: 37:33

yeah. Yeah. So being human. Yeah. My initial reaction is sake, of course, because I'm human. Yeah. My action associated is accountability. Yeah. So and for me, it's, you know, in that real life example, I responded with, because this is a very new boundary. I will accept this meeting. Yeah. However, we've talked about this and I will not be accepting any more from here on him. Yeah. So clear. Fears gone. Clear is kind that's exactly right. And so it wasn't you know, Daniel cryin out loud, you're just such a jerk doing that to me all the time. You know, that's, you know, isn't true. That jerk that. Thank you. That's exactly. No, there's no point in doing that. There's no point in just being frustrated, but not taking action. Like there's literally no point in it, why bother? Takes a lot of time and energy and effort to do that. The last one is Be human. Yeah, this will be your favorite. Absolutely. And the interesting thing is, we come to each of these things naturally, as well. So some are much more natural than others. This is probably the one that I struggle with the most. being pragmatic and effective. I've always had that no problem being purposeful, no problem at all. Being human is always the one that I might have got to think about this one, I've got to really connect. Because it's really about not just seeing myself as human, but seeing others as human and connecting on a human to human basis. This one's really about how do we establish a culture or a environment where people can actually come into it and feel comfortable in it. So there's that psychological safety aspect to it. There's the how do I make sure that my the environment that I'm setting up is inclusive for people who can come in and challenge me if they need to, or be here and be themselves so that that real belonging is really important in this part of it? But also compassion, as well unkindness, so being able to be kind to others and I can be this is the one I think for me that I I position myself as much as I can to be kind Except when I'm a pressurized, so if I'm under a deadline pressure, or I haven't been taking care of myself, or there's been times and I get very short, you know, you're very short and snappy with people. It's like just get this done. Yeah, here it is. I'm done. You know, give me three words, not 17 words. Yeah. Because I'm in a place where I just need to do it move. Yeah. But that's because I'm situated more in that be effective. Yeah, then I am in the beat human.

Daniel Franco: 40:32

My favorite quotes in there they humankind be both

Michelle Holland: 40:35

Yeah. It's a very strong thing to say. It is, well, yeah, meaning is important here as well. So we are meaning making creatures, and we want to be able to contribute, that's really part of our basic human need. We want to belong to a group. But we also want to contribute to that group, we also want to find meaning in the things that we're doing. And we're seeing with the new generation coming into the workplace, that more and more and more and more, there's an expectation around meaning. So being human really is about I see you as a human, you know, when I'm

Daniel Franco: 41:14

in what goes through my head is by putting yourself in other people's shoes,

Michelle Holland: 41:17

that empathy is absolutely a human trait. It is a skill that's not demonstrated very well with many people. But empathy and compassion is essential for this sort of stuff. And the reality is you can't actually hold people accountable without empathy, and compassion either, right? Because otherwise you just tell them off until you and that sort of stuff, which is not effective leadership.

Daniel Franco: 41:41

Actually, I like you, because you've said that a few times telling people off what are we kids here? We're adults don't get told off.

Michelle Holland: 41:48

And that's exactly right. We don't use that language, just like and I'm like, I'm being told off. No, you're not. You're not You're not a child. You're an adult here, you've been held accountable. Yeah, just get in trouble. No, you won't. Because you're not a child, you're an adult. So yeah, that language is not not not effective. It's not effective at all, if so, so those that's a kind of a high level version of what's in the book. And so those four key components, but they have to work together as well. And in the book I explore when they're not working together, and like got some little characters as well that explore as far as if you're just being pragmatic, and just being a thing. Yeah, just being, because that's not what we're talking about here to be an authentic leader to be able to be there for yourself and be there for others, then you have to be all four things, right? Or a combination of all four. The thing is, though, my books called imperfect leadership, so there's no expectation that they have to, everybody has to get these right, constantly all the time, and, you know, tick it off. And like, yeah, I've done this. Yeah, it's a constant journey. Like I always say, I'm a work in progress, I am a constant work in progress. So there are times where I'm like, I'm so purposeful here. And this is amazing. And I'm like, really connected, and I'm on our main flow. And then there are times where I'm so nice. And I'm just taking off tests.

Daniel Franco: 43:11

Is there is there Nope. Just kind of put a different hat on. And is there the potential that people could use this as an excuse for, for not being a good listener? Come in perfect. And then just throw it away? Like, as if it's, you know, he treated me like this. Yeah. Well, I'm imperfect.

Michelle Holland: 43:32

Yeah. Well, you can't contract out of immaturity, like somebody is going to be immature and do it that way, then that's, I can't write a book that stops people from being immature. It's the same as you know, if I'm going to be am I going to be authentic? Well, I'm a real jerk. And I treat everybody like crap. So I'm going to be authentic. It's like, well, you know,

Daniel Franco: 43:50

yeah, really, this book is really written.

Michelle Holland: 43:53

It's not written for you. That's exactly right. If that's how you're you're turning up in the world, then. Yeah. You know, the integrator, actually.

Daniel Franco: 44:02

Yeah, the word leader shouldn't be associated with that.

Michelle Holland: 44:06

No, absolutely. And it's really it's just about, you know, imperfect leadership could be called imperfect human Inc, as well. We're just being imperfect humans, because there's actually some beauty in it. And for me, this is really, the book is an invitation for leaders to just start looking at leadership in a different way to start looking at this perfect version of leadership that they've created in their head and start unpacking that about why we're striving for this perfection of leadership. And is that really real? Instead of actually turning up and going, this is actually what I can do. Because as soon as we strive for perfection, it actually gives us an excuse not to do because, you know, there's not enough resources. There's not enough people there's not enough money in the budget. There's not enough there's not enough. It's funny constantly hear that

Daniel Franco: 44:56

friction and procrastination live in the same world than they do. Absolutely.

Michelle Holland: 45:00

Exactly. So as soon as you're saying, there's not enough, there's not enough, there's not enough, right? You don't do anything instead of saying, well, there might not be enough budget or resources, whatever, but what can I do? What can I do to actually achieve what I'm trying to achieve? That's being effective? That's being pragmatic. That's being effect. purposeful, right? And I'm taking care of myself as well. So that's being human. Not enough. Not enough. Not enough. That's perfectionism.

Daniel Franco: 45:32

I love it. I love it. When is this book coming out? Like what? What's going on? So I'm

Michelle Holland: 45:38

just talking to my publisher at the moment, and I've got the first draft is complete, got to get the next draft off to them to do some editing. It's usually about a six month process to go through, you know, the machine of a really long teaser for people is a really long teaser. So I'm hoping that it'll be ready for launch in early 2022. Great. So watch this space. You'll you'll watch us. Well, in the

Daniel Franco: 46:07

meantime, if you want to read one of Michelle's other books culturing others as well, you can give them a plug. Yes, yes.

Michelle Holland: 46:14

I've got two, two that I wrote before culture Inc, which are Energy Vampires Suck. Yeah, one. People just love that title. Energy Vampires Suck. And the second one is unearthing vampires. So they're companion books. And and they're written in a fable. This new one's written in a fable as well, which makes it I think, a little bit more accessible, much more enjoyable to, to actually write. So rulebook, it's about a journey. Yeah, it's a leadership adventure. Whereas, culturing, culturing, how to? Yeah, so if you're interested in understanding how culture is created, or how you would like to shift and change a culture, evolve a culture, then culture rings, the one for you. If you're more interested in personal leadership journey, then this new one's probably the one for you.

Daniel Franco: 47:06

Excellent. So where can we follow everyone can follow you in listening here out on LinkedIn? Is that

Michelle Holland: 47:14

the Yeah, LinkedIn, I'm mostly on LinkedIn, that's probably where I spend the most time social media wise. Cynthia q.com. Au, if you want to get in touch, quite easy. I'm doing a lot of speaking as well around this. And this is something that I really want to talk much more about. So Michelle T Holland, calm has my books and my speaking profiles and and whatnot. So yeah, if you actually, if you just Google Michelle T. Holland, I'm the one that comes up. Yeah, that's why I use my T to it because the e's a lot of Michelle Hol ands out there that Michelle T H lland is my author, and spea er night.

Daniel Franco: 47:49

Brilliant. Well, thank you very much. Today, Michelle, I'm very excited I get in pre release. Well, yeah,

Michelle Holland: 47:56

maybe maybe. Yeah, might the first the draft version.

Daniel Franco: 48:03

I'll put my critique hat on. Thank you again for your time. And thank you for everything you're doing. In this world of leadership and helping people really realize that, you know, being or being imperfect to use the word is a good

Michelle Holland: 48:22

thing. Is sometimes enough is enough. Yeah.

Daniel Franco: 48:26

I struggle with that. I know you do. I struggle with Yeah, and I think that's just a cross between the the achievement focus, the speed, the or the peak, the people pleasing aspect, you know, it's a concoction of Chinese,

Michelle Holland: 48:45

it's peeling off the armor. Yes. We put a lot of armor on ourselves to protect our ourselves and being authentic is being vulnerable and as removing the armor. It is it's a big journey. Love it thing gonna happen overnight, but it will happen.

Daniel Franco: 49:04

Like, you know, the pursuit of happiness, right. There is no such thing. You cannot pursue happiness. It's not something you

Michelle Holland: 49:10

pursuit of leadership. Yeah. Okay. Right. Next, shooter, shooter leadership,

Daniel Franco: 49:16

I think, well, you're later to all different types of people at any given point. Yeah. Absolutely. I love it. Thank you very much. Thank you. We could talk forever, but we'll end that now. So yeah, we'll keep keep in touch. Michelle Holland, MichelleTholland.com, and Michelle Holland on LinkedIn, and you'll be able to check out when that book is released. But if you want to get in contact with her, for any speaking gigs or any if you want to get your culture diagnosed, or do any leadership work with you and your leaders, feel free to reach out,

Michelle Holland: 49:53

synergyiq.com.au

Daniel Franco: 49:55

Thanks, guys.

Synergy IQ: 49:57

Thank you once again for joining us here at Creative synergy IQ it's been great spending this time with you please jump on to the synergy IQ Facebook and LinkedIn page where the discussion continues after the show join our mailing list so you'll know what's happening next at Synergyiq.com.au and of course don't forget to subscribe to this podcast and if you really enjoyed it, please share it with your friends.