Francesco Vassallo, also known as Frank, is the founder of effektiver ppl. (which stands for - more effective people), where he works together with his clients providing them with bespoke consulting services in agile coaching, training, mentoring, facilitation and workshops.
Frank is a Highly qualified Agile Coach and IT Delivery Leader with extensive experience over 25 years in public and private sectors in Australia and the United Kingdom across a number of industries, including Utilities, Natural Resource Management, Land Administration, Taxation, Insurance, Agribusiness, Criminal Justice, Health, Retail and Education.
He is a self-confessed Agile geek, a connector and collaborator, and is constantly seeking to bring out the best in people and himself, through his commitment to a life long learning and connection with the community.
In this episode, Frank and Daniel talk about all things AGILE, from the origins of Agile to how to effectively implement it, to the difference in agile with a capital A to agile with a little a.
If you are interested in learning more about Agile, this is the episode to listen to.
If you enjoy this episode, please share it with your friends and colleagues, and check us out on synergyiq.com.au.
Where to find Frank Vassallo
Join the conversation on Synergy IQ LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram (@synergyiq) and please support other leaders by liking, subscribing and sharing this podcast.
Access SynergyIQ Website to get to know more about us.
Say hello to our host Daniel on LinkedIn.
Books mentioned on this episode:
Francesco Vassallo, also known as Frank, is the founder of effektiver ppl. (which stands for - more effective people), where he works together with his clients providing them with bespoke consulting services in agile coaching, training, mentoring, facilitation and workshops.
Frank is a Highly qualified Agile Coach and IT Delivery Leader with extensive experience over 25 years in public and private sectors in Australia and the United Kingdom across a number of industries, including Utilities, Natural Resource Management, Land Administration, Taxation, Insurance, Agribusiness, Criminal Justice, Health, Retail and Education.
He is a self-confessed Agile geek, a connector and collaborator, and is constantly seeking to bring out the best in people and himself, through his commitment to a life long learning and connection with the community.
In this episode, Frank and Daniel talk about all things AGILE, from the origins of Agile to how to effectively implement it, to the difference in agile with a capital A to agile with a little a.
If you are interested in learning more about Agile, this is the episode to listen to.
If you enjoy this episode, please share it with your friends and colleagues, and check us out on synergyiq.com.au.
Where to find Frank Vassallo
Join the conversation on Synergy IQ LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram (@synergyiq) and please support other leaders by liking, subscribing and sharing this podcast.
Access SynergyIQ Website to get to know more about us.
Say hello to our host Daniel on LinkedIn.
Books mentioned on this episode:
Welcome to creating synergy where we explore what it takes to transform. We are powered by Synergy IQ. Our mission is to help leaders create world class businesses where people are safe, valued, inspired and fulfilled. We can only do this with our amazing community. So thank you for listening.
Daniel Franco:Hi there synergises and welcome back to another episode of The creating synergy podcast. My name is Daniel Franco. And today I chatted to man who just has the ability to make me smile. He's one of the most humble human beings I've had the pleasure of being around and his name is Mr. Francesco Vassallo. Frank is the founder of effective people, which stands for more effective people, where he works together with his clients providing them with bespoke consulting services in Agile coaching, training, mentoring and facilitation and workshops. Frank is a highly qualified agile coaching it delivery leader with extensive experience of 25 years in both private and public sectors in Australia and the United Kingdom across many industries, such as utilities, natural resource management, land administration, taxation, insurance, agribusiness, criminal justice, health, retail and education is a self confessed agile gauge, a connector, a collaborator, and he's constantly seeking to bring the best out of people and himself through his commitment to lifelong learning and the connection that he has with the community. In today's podcast, Frank's pearls of wisdom did not disappoint. We were talking all things that Joe from the origins of Agile to how to effectively implement edge agile, to the difference between agile with a big A to agile with a little a. It was a lot of fun chatting with Frank, if you're interested in learning more about agile, you should definitely check out this podcast. Remember, if you liked the episode, hit subscribe and check us out on Synergy. iq.com.au Cheers. Welcome back to The creating synergy podcast. My name is Daniel Franco, your host and today we have one of my favorite human beings. Mr. Frank of a silo, welcome to the show. Thanks.
Frank Vassallo:I'm happy to be here
Daniel Franco:see sitting over there with a little bit of a head wobble man, you've got a little bit of a cult following in, in the Agile space. Can you explain to us how you became the master of Agile?
Frank Vassallo:Oh, gosh, Master of agile, that's not my shoulders. Look, I have to be really humbled that I, I think in in Adelaide, in my circles in Adelaide, where I've lived in and worked most of my life, apart from a few stints Interstate and overseas have definitely got a taste of the Agile ways of working and appeal to me, you know, particularly that humanistic people side of it. Yeah. And it just seemed like the right way to work, you know, in the past today and in the future. So it's something that I just became very enthusiastic about. And I think probably one of the big opportunities I've had, in recent times to participate and be involved with the Agile community in Adelaide and outside of Adelaide, and even through, you know, opportunities that came out through COVID last year was sort of broadening connections outside of Australia, globally, is that I just started seeing the value in connecting with people. So I think that's the main main thing. It's connecting and having an appetite for wanting to share knowledge and learn from others and also bring people together so they can connect and learn. So it's sort of this whole multi faceted approach. As a result of that. I think the whole you know, Frank, Frank Vassallo there, you know, one of the Agile guys in Adelaide, maybe I'll just sort of
Daniel Franco:even out of that, yeah. Now you, you are like, you're known in the circles, you've got a large following Meetup group in that sort of Agile space. But realistically, I think what you're saying is that following has come from you actually just being a half decent person care and caring about people and caring about sharing and giving.
Frank Vassallo:Yeah, I think I, you know, I enjoy the things. If I think about things I've really enjoyed over the last few years in particular, as I got more involved with the Agile community was just nice seeing even just a little bit of You know, a little bit of joy, a little bit of learning that someone can get or connection, if I think about things that are really put a smile, you know, on my dial, and uhm smile, I smile quite a lot. And that's what a trademark is when we're small, but I think about just just a small thing, connecting someone or just just bringing that bring people together and seeing that happen for no other. No other reason, actually, I think also, as I've got to a point where, you know, I've been around for a while I've been working in IT for a few decades, but I just got to a point where I just had no fear, to even put myself out there or be that person in the room. And you know, sometimes it wouldn't work. And sometimes it would be happy, or just happy that I got to a point where I had just no fear to try something out.
Daniel Franco:Yeah, yeah, I've seen you in a couple of those events. And I've often thought to myself, I don't know, he doesn't just rooms, the rooms, the rooms, the room and owns the room in the same token. So I want to ask, before we go deeper, you just give us your version of what agile is.
Frank Vassallo:Okay? Yes, my version, it really touched on what I was saying before about this. What attracted me to this whole sort of Agile ways of working is that it's very much about people. So for me, particularly over the last, you know, 1015 years, and feel like the whole work, working environment, a whole world, we're going through this massive transition, and we're sort of probably in the midst of it at the moment where we're going from this, what was and what worked well, you know, many years ago, industrial age into this knowledge, knowledge sort of base world and complex, you know, complex world and, and work can be, you know, it can be a horrible place, right? And I've probably had my experiences over 30 ideas where it can be, you know, so so.
Daniel Franco:I mean, to back that up. Yeah, the gallops statistics at the moment suggests that 85% of people are disengaged in the workplace. So yes,
Frank Vassallo:yeah, that's right. So I'm not alone. And then you have that. So what are the 15%? are engaged? And maybe 15% of your time even? Yeah, when you and that group, you're engaged? Yeah, there's time. So it's not uncommon, why is that? A lot of it is probably around? Well, I think a big part of it is around the way, the way that we work, the way that works organized, and the way people are organized to do work and the way that they're treated or managed. So when I started learning about agile, I started learning about, as a lot of people do, they start learning about frameworks and processes, but then quickly, you know, you start to understand that it's really a mindset. So it's really, you know, it's a way of thinking a way of interacting
Daniel Franco:values and principles, isn't it? That's right. Yes. purist.
Frank Vassallo:Yeah. So and I, and I know, a lot of people use that term, and I do as well, but you've got the difference of, of being agile versus doing agile, you know, maybe even use a capital a wrong guy. And the little guy on the left says that doing agile, which is really vital, that's, that's where it just resonated with me and over, over, particularly the last 10 years become a bigger and bigger part about the way I think about agility, or the way that we work. And I guess ultimately, he was talking about, you know, employee engagement, 15%. You know, whatever we do in our work life, we're doing it with other people, our colleagues, other employees, and we're doing it for customers. So agile for me is that humanistic way of working in a in in the best way possible, to keep improving yourself, your team, what you what you do as a company, your products and services, and then also providing that great experience for your customers. So it's a great way to deliver on those outcomes. Yep. And it's, it's a great way to do it in what, what is, effectively a very complex world at the moment and certainly can become more complex. Yeah, yeah.
Daniel Franco:You're a little bit of a self proclaimed geek, when it comes to the head job, and you even know, the whole backstory. You've gone and actually,
Frank Vassallo:probably gone a bit too far ahead, sometimes these days, like training and when you get opportunities to work with teams or organizations just and they might just want an introduction or starting a kickoff around agile. Some of the feedback I've got recently was great session could have probably done a little bit less on the history. So the point taken,
Daniel Franco:lessons
Frank Vassallo:I got, I got pretty excited that was early this year because it was February, February 2001. So just just over 20 years ago that says the 20 year anniversary was the 20 year anniversary in February, and there's a lot there's a lot going on globally, there was an agile 20 reflect festival that was created. So it was basically
Daniel Franco:I'm so surprised, you know, this, I
Frank Vassallo:know, got sort of caught immersed in that. And it's 20 years since these, you know, 17 can I say middle aged white men, descended on a mountain up in Utah to ski and eat and drink and basically went there to try to solve, solve a problem that was bothering them and a lot of people around that time around how to how we could develop software better, and was so that the Agile movement, if you like the, the Agile Manifesto, as it's known, which is based around, you know, four values and 12 principles, it was actually the, the manifesto for Agile software development. Yeah. Because it was, effectively the 17 people thought leaders and experts and proponents of all these lightweight software development frameworks and techniques that came together in that time and came down from the mountain with the with the manifesto. Yeah. And and over the 20 years, it's it's, it's, it's become something that's, and rightly so, and in a good way into sort of more outside of software, so agile beyond it's grown it. And so yeah, so there's a there's a lot of history there. So you know, the one the one thing that came to mind that I just learned recently, because of this agile 20 reflect festival, a lot of a lot of the people there a lot of events that were run, and I tapped into a few of them. And one in particular, from one of the 17 chaps that were up on up on that mountain was Alastair Coburn, and he did a he did a really nice talk. So just point people to it. Around the history TED Talk, yeah, well, it was just a webinar that he did a number for. Download it. Yeah, yeah. So what's the way I just if you sort of Google agile 20 reflect Alistair Coburn okay. You'll find it. I did a few talks. I might even share it when I yeah. Show knows that. Yeah. And he talked about something because because one of the one of the issues I've had sometimes is that your agile has just become this? In a way, horrible word, you know, massive word. And what does it mean? Remember,
Daniel Franco:we had a different baby once in use, like sometimes I don't even like bringing up the word agile. Yeah, I've
Frank Vassallo:did say that. And I say it often just wish that sometimes we would just take that that word out of the equation, and have the conversation about, you know, the way we're working, what outcomes we want to achieve. And then because it just becomes, can be can be misused, or can be a lot of anti patterns that come out. Yeah. And agile has, you know, so one of the, for example, one of the things I like to do, initially with with people is start to really understand what are we talking about when we're saying agile, what does it mean? It might mean a lot of different things differently.
Daniel Franco:So communication within these. Yes, that's right. So
Frank Vassallo:that so that Alistair Coburn thing that struck me, which I didn't know until just recently was that they were trying to determine what to call this Manifesto. And they distill the last two words that were shortlisted were agile, or adaptive. And that to me, I don't know. That's the geek for all. That's wonderful. They just go Well, yeah, I see the, I have a preference as such, because it's a word but I under jerkin, you'd
Daniel Franco:have a big adapt even a little of that. But you know, the same way you would have a job?
Frank Vassallo:Yeah, that's a hard question. I don't know it, probably. Because ultimately, that only that happens, because the change or that that transition to that way of working is maybe Miss misunderstood or misled. And it doesn't mean it's easy, it's easy, right? So it's easier to do do do something rather than be something that's very Yeah.
Daniel Franco:There's a lot of that. People take a process or a framework or a system and run with it and and almost believe it to be gospel. And yeah, when actually, if Look, if there's anything I know about agile is that they say these are the four values. And these are the 12 principles, however, do what's best for your company. Right? Yeah, it doesn't need to be within those parameters. To say, is that correct?
Frank Vassallo:Yeah, I think it's like it's like everything right? It's always connected. And then you can see the good and bad of both sides. So one on one side. You know, and I and I, and people like smarter people than me or Alistair Coburn and others, were actually saying, if you're if you're going to adopt an agile way of working, let's say adopting, you know, brand a framework and yeah, that when you start, you should follow it to the letter right out of the box vanilla. And, and there's a reason for that. Right? Right. So if you're looking at that particular framework that's been developed a news cell, or some of these frameworks are in place, well before 2001, so we're, you know, maybe 3040 minutes for software development. Now
Daniel Franco:you're saying software
Frank Vassallo:development, or, you know, this could apply to anything that you're doing so so they
Daniel Franco:built it for software development? Yeah. And you're saying that they're even saying it works the same way if you keep within those parameters for everything?
Frank Vassallo:Well, let's just say specifically, for probably have to actually talk about a frame rate to make sense of this. But and the most common one that's used and known and probably misused is, is Scrum. Yeah. So and a lot of people associate Scrum with agile and vice versa, which is a nother topic might come back to that in a minute. But Scrum, Scrum is a product delivery framework. So it's effectively a very simple process, like combat as well, combat is another medicine. Right? So under that whole agile approach umbrella, if you like umbrella of working in a certain way, this mindset underpinned by these values and principles, there's probably 4015 framework. Yeah, right. And then there's, then there's a whole lot of practices. So these are the things that we that we do. When when you're adopting those. It's, you know, my my standpoint has always be if once you determine that, that's the best thing to try, is that when you start out, particularly if you're, it's new is taken out of the box, vanilla and apply. But what we tend to do is we may quickly start to bend it and break the rules, and then it doesn't it doesn't work the way intended Yeah, and we do that because we haven't done the other work. Okay to change our mindset culture.
Daniel Franco:Bring away that on work leaders. Yeah,
Frank Vassallo:it's a big, big part of it. I think what I've learned over the last 10 or so years of applying these agile frameworks is Yeah, I'd rather go in and not talk about agile, understand the what's what's the what's the culture? What's the outcomes? What's the leadership? What are the what's the capability in the team, and then start working through you know, starting from where we are and having some sort of evolution about we want to get to, and then part of that might be okay, we're going to bring in some agile ways of working, we're going to look at Yeah, this framework, these practices Yes, start from and then as you start using them and get better at them, then you can sort of adapt them a little bit. Yeah. So again, better person, I'd definitely written books and all sorts. Alistair Coburn talks about Shu Hari right which is shoe follow the rule ha This is the next stage of mastery be the rule and then the re is like follow the rule bend the rule make the rule so when you get to that level, then you so when you start you should start just settling
Daniel Franco:in karate move you know yeah.
Frank Vassallo:And I cost me lasagna. I used I use whatever I use this Xu Hari when I work with teams and I say for example, if I'm going to make a lasagna Yeah, I have to follow the recipe right it's almost shoe design and it will come out or follow the recipe Yeah, exactly to the letter if my wife Yeah, Michael is Anya she can look in the pantry look in the fridge. She can be wrong she can just adapt a little bit just break the rule. Yeah. Whereas my my lovely Mum, she's a ri right she she is the rule. She just makes the lasagna. She says she's at that mastery, live experience. Yeah. So yeah,
Daniel Franco:from someone who else he's sitting here he's Italian I completely appreciate that. But now you're making me hungry.
Frank Vassallo:I am hungry and I for weeks I kept asking me when I was bringing the lasagna to travel and we did we did that's brilliant.
Daniel Franco:I like that analogy though. I want to go back to the 17 guys sitting around people sitting in a room who trying to solve a problem So traditionally it's boss says I want to create this team goes off and creates it and then customer gets it right is that sort of in in its most basic Yeah. What what what's the what why did they see that as a problem?
Frank Vassallo:Well, I think that the sort of problems and and I was a developer I was cutting code or just sort of going into project management around that time. And you still you still see it today, particularly in that sort of, in that it, delivery world. So you think you're dealing with stuff that's quite ambiguous. And anyone that's been involved in any sort of software or products that are being that are emerging, you know, the worst thing you can have is that traditional approach sort of engineering approach where we try to capture a whole lot of requirements, and then people go off into a room and build it, then come back, months later, and then show the customer. And invariably, a couple of things happen. The world's changed, your views have changed, I seen something and then something else, basically, if it takes longer than a month, right, yeah. And then so well, so there's all sorts of angles that the time around proach, you know, things taking too long, costing too much money. And we're not getting what we want at one end, right. And then on the other end, you've got these people like myself that were cutting code and developing, and we weren't, we couldn't get access to people, we couldn't get feedback. And then, you know, you're sort of working. You know, sometimes you felt like you were like mushrooms working in the dark. And eventually, you're in sort of the tail on the dog, right? And you're getting, you're getting, you're getting the gig and we walked, right, so not not a good environment. And that's effectively in 2001. Like I said, a lot of those frameworks, those lightweight methods are already in play. So they're actually coming together. I think they're meeting quite often around that time, and some others, on that particular time, they thought they need to come out, come up with some ideas to develop this Manifesto, which has been something then that spawned out this agile movement. And in the last 20 years, it's it's it's definitely moved beyond it. And for a lot of a lot of reasons that that way of working, just suits really well with our complex world. And the type of work that we do. I mean, there aren't many companies now that haven't got the can call themselves some sort of it or software company in some shape or form.
Daniel Franco:Yeah, this is a talk that all companies and software companies these, yes, some sort of software in their business, whether it be Microsoft 365, or Google, whatever it might be. What, you know, you've gone off on I recently went through COVID, you went off and started your own business, you're working for businesses throughout your whole life. But recently, in the past 12 months, you started your own effective. So congratulations. Thank you. Thank you very much great work. When you walk into an organization now to help them or you speak to a leader to help them they've called you and said, We need help. What is what does that look like? How does a How does a business decide? Rado need help with Project Management methodologies? or whatever it might be?
Frank Vassallo:Yeah, there's probably some recognition that either they want to uplift existing capability in Agile ways of working and wait, maybe the way they're delivering projects or products or the services they provide, or there's some sources of, you know, dissatisfaction and pain points or some opportunities I want to explore. I thought I find it interesting still, that I've still meet organizations that it's relatively new to them, I find that I always find that a little
Daniel Franco:the hot. So they have not been aware of
Frank Vassallo:Yeah, well, just not not. Yeah, maybe have some awareness. But yeah, probably at the end of the spectrum, that just still surprises me. So and maybe, you know, and that's maybe judgmental, just thinking about that. But you know, the most common common reason that I would go into help, or, you know, support or coach or train would be to live some capability within a team. And their understanding of it, their understanding is and are you surprised? Not just just that, okay, I guess it's only because I've been exposed to it for a long time. And you
Daniel Franco:know, and these people that you don't know what you don't know, right? Yeah. Yeah. And while they're calling you,
Frank Vassallo:yeah, yeah, I guess. But I think it's in some cases, but everyone's at a different state. Yeah. Right. And, and to be fair, most most of the time, I meet with people and they they've, there's a knowledge gap, right, or knowledge doing sort of gap. I would actually say that you're probably more agile than you think. Right? And generally they are. It's just shifting the way they think about the way they work. And then maybe being prepared to try different practices.
Daniel Franco:Yeah, just yeah. questioning their everyday And actually just putting it within a framework? Yes, they might just feel like they're out there airy fairy? Or actually, no, I'm probably doing three or four of these points, right? So bring it on your head or bring it together, how do I add these extra ones to become more efficient? Yeah, we see the same thing with leadership. And the coaching that we do within Synergy IQ, it's where, you know, we go and do a workshop for, you know, a team building a leadership team building web program, or something like that, where we've got, you know, 30 different leaders moving the business in one room. And it's, it's really, a can be quite difficult because you do have different levels of leadership. Yeah, you got those who are so much more self aware, than those who have been promoted into a role because of their technical ability, you don't really haven't really led people before. So you I mean, you would see the same thing with your, with your work.
Frank Vassallo:That's right. Yeah. And, and a lot of cases, people have come together from different teams or different organizations and maybe have had a flavor of this way of working or, you know, where they work before they had a, you know, a certain type of culture or a certain type of way they were led or a certain team environment. And, and they would apply different frameworks in different ways. So then coming, bring them together for a new project, or a new product or a new team. It's really about creating, and co creating a common agreed way of working, and then and then helping them work through that, you know, in making those work, you know, incremental change, I have to admit that years ago was I had no patience about this stuff. I had, you know, if I was working somewhere, and we're going to adopt this way of working, I wanted it to be Yeah, Big Bang, overnight, but now, it's definitely, you know, because we don't have that luxury also, you know, a lot of times working with teams, and they still have to deliver, you know, their business as usual, or whatever they've been doing up until that point. So it's not like you can just you don't want to throw everything out. Yeah, it would be completely wrong, is need to start having more Yeah, it's just a bit more of a patient approach from you know, start from where you are, really, really observe what's going on and start working through more
Daniel Franco:substantial change.
Frank Vassallo:Yeah. Over time. Yeah. It's there's no real end point, either. It's not like you get to a point where we were, we're agile now. You know, we're adaptive. Yeah. It's on Joe.
Daniel Franco:Your lasagna example is a great one. That's right. Stop making lasagna is not at
Frank Vassallo:all. That's right. And sorry, I'm sure. This is the wrong time of day to be talking about.
Daniel Franco:There's a pizza shop down. Yeah. I think there we go on there after this. Yeah. How? How would this fail when you go into work, when you go into work with the company, and they say to you, Frank, we want to become more agile? What's the caveat?
Frank Vassallo:Yeah, well, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's easy for for this to fail. Because even though a lot of this is quite simple, like, you know, you read the four values that make sense with the principles, you look at these frameworks, they're just simple, but it's incredibly hard to, to implement execute, because it's disciplined enough to Yeah, well, it's because of the change. It's just it's a significant change in and always look at it in, in in a few levels, right? So you've got individuals, right, particularly cuz I do a lot of work with teams. So there's individuals, right across the organization, but in the teams, and even though everyone is an individual person, then you've got teams, maybe, whatever, 579 people in the multiple teams. So you've got all these teams, and you got all these leaders, and you've got the whole organization. So you've got culture, leadership, the way people work as teams and the individuals very, really complex, right? So there's lots of ways for it, not to work, because trying to get everyone to shift and work in a new way,
Daniel Franco:especially from an organizational level. That's right. Yeah. So it's working with the IT team, for example, a bit easier. But when you have to,
Frank Vassallo:even that even, that's difficult, because this is a common thing that happens. And it's happened even when I was working within organizations as an agile practitioner, in project management or leading teams, Frank, we've got this new project and we can't do it the old fashioned way. We've got to take this agile approach. So go in there and create a scrum team and, you know, get things done faster and quicker and cheaper. And it's like, you know, this Thought earlier? Yeah, great get a chance to do this yeah, when you go and do it is what you find is that you just got this little, little pocket down deep in the organization that's trying to work this way. But it keeps butting up against. Yeah, the bigger beast. So that's where the whole thing falls apart. And that in itself, is probably one of the most common starting points which I see with organizations get wrong, or is when the decisions made, you know, that want to use this particular framework. So and I'm not picking on Scrum. I love Scrum. It's a great product, every framework is simple, but it's hard to implement, and is the right thing to use in a lot of cases. But it's also not the right thing to use in certain cases, or it can be used in a positive way all the time. I really believe that. But I believe the same thing about a lot of the other frameworks, but Scrum is the one that most people know about, it's the most commonly used. So the starting point is always coming, we want to get this team operating using this agile framework. But the whole thing will fall apart if we don't have everything else in place, which is we don't have the culture, the organization, the leadership that's required. You guys that mindset values and principles. So a good example, looking at a glass of water here is if you think about water, right water, you think that's the value, the value is the water, what we drink what we need. And that if you think of that as agile, agile is the water. Yep. Right? But a water bottle is is like the framework it holds. It's a container for the water. So Scrum can be the water bottle. And the water, right? So you put the water into the bottle. And you've got the value there Scrum holding the water, which is valuable. But if you don't have water, you've just got the bottle. There's no there's there's no value there. Or sometimes. The sounds a bit weird, as I'm saying. But sometimes you don't need a bottle, you might just need a glass. A different a different container, a different frame a
Daniel Franco:different frame. Yeah. So and that's the other 70
Frank Vassallo:might be or other otherwise. So Scrum. Scrum is a great framework, but on its own. Without that agile mindset. You know,
Daniel Franco:Scrum to me just seems like a bunch, just like and this is a very naive and naive or ignorant whatever the word is. statement, but it just seems to me a simple goal setting. We want to achieve certain goals in a certain amount of time.
Frank Vassallo:It's Scrum scrums made up around. It's a product level framework, which helps teams collaborate in short feedback loops with their customer. Yeah.
Daniel Franco:From a snap perspective. Yeah. So I guess this is what we want to achieve in the next month and two weeks a week, whatever. Yeah. And then once we've done that, we go to the backlog and bringing in you Well, that's kind of why am I right? Yeah. It's
Frank Vassallo:It is a very simple effect. They talk about you know, 343 Scrum is three roles. You know, the, the product owner decides what we're gonna do the team who decide how we're gonna do it. Yeah. And then they have to the Scrum Master, who is like a servant leader. Yep. to the to the team and the product owner. And then there's four ceremonies. Yep, daily Scrum. And then there's the planning what we're going to do the next two weeks, at the end of the two weeks, review it, and then have a retrospective, which is a big part of agile and then basically three products. You just talked about one, the backlog. Yeah. What's the next stuff we're gonna take in? What's our plan for the next two weeks or whatever? And then the actual, the important thing is the product you're delivering? Yeah. Yeah, it's simple. That's actually a scrum Alliance. That's there. I had I used to have the T shirt on. So Scrum is still in. Scrum is simple, but it's not easy. Yeah.
Daniel Franco:Yeah, that's most things, isn't it? Really? Yeah. It's the concept of most things are fairly simple. It's just the discipline to be able to deliver properly. Yeah. So
Frank Vassallo:I mean, so for people new to agile are wanting to adopt an agile way of working that will be my number one tip. Don't just start you know, don't go to Bunnings and buy a hammer and then come around and start looking fingernails always start with thinking about looking at you know, what your what it is you're trying to achieve, you know, look at look around the environment where's where's the pain? Where's the opportunities, and then start exploring little things you can change sometimes you can become more, you can definitely become more agile just by starting to remove something. Yeah. So even that is a simple starting point. What can we start to remove?
Daniel Franco:So let's just let's use an example then. Yeah, I'm a senior leader that's just been recruited into this new camp into this company. And I have worked with agile, what, you know, 10 years. And I want to introduce this methodology into this new company. But I understand that I need to look at the organization, the culture and where it currently sits. Yep. And I pitch this to the leadership team. And they're happy with the way we're currently working. Then what happens? Yeah.
Frank Vassallo:Yeah, that's a common uncommon thing. A lot of level work because we've done this for 17 years. You know, sorry, I heard that the other day.
Daniel Franco:Yeah. Why do we need to change were successful?
Frank Vassallo:Yeah. I start this mantra of definitely what I love the most about what I'm doing at the moment is is facilitating co creation amongst people where you know, okay, in that case, you've got some people that are thinking one thing this this one person has come in maybe maybe he or she's got the most influence so maybe he or she gets her way. Right, that can happen too. But ultimately, what's great is being able to take people through and there's lots of lots of great techniques in order to do this around understanding what could be possible or what you know, there's always something right unless you've got completely you know, a completely closed fixed mindset across the board and everyone just wants things to stay the same that's it then good luck right? Yeah, but yeah, so if I'm having that sort of challenge I would start to frame it or let's let's try an experiment or you know like and this is where I've got personally am I've got better over the years I had a lot of emotion in the past but I will try to still do but you know, try to frame things around experiments or actually getting more better at looking at data right and some of that data can be just by going back to what I was saying what I'm really enjoying is engaging groups of people and giving them to co create by generating ideas and insights from from a lot from a large from a group of people who will small or large but ultimately then shift to getting them to shift the dial on where they where they want to go and what they want to try next.
Daniel Franco:So yeah, ladies, what it does I think we're I'm I guess what I'm trying to dissect is how important is leadership to the success of bringing agile into organization if they're not on board is going to fail straightaway so there's no point yeah,
Frank Vassallo:forget it. Yeah, yeah, it's it's critical I mean, it is never just one thing right so but but that's a unique piece of Yeah, yeah. If you haven't got that then it's it's done defy I'm, I've got a big sort of passion was around, you know, the future of work. And these very, really progressive, sort of self managing organizations and I'm sort of big, big on that read a lot about it and plug in my other meetup reinventing work. evelo is really cool. We look at these organizations and one of the books that got me into that was Frederick lilou, reinventing organizations. And they had just I remember reading that book and and getting lighten lighten to the book. And then it said, it almost just said, I'm, by the way, if you don't have a CEO, or a board that are on board or system, Forget it, forget it, okay,
Daniel Franco:I should have put that already.
Frank Vassallo:But, and even even in even in our group, where we come together and talk about frustrations of, you know, we feel it's not about pointing a mirror at leader saying you're doing a bad job, it's just that things are changing, and everything's gonna be different. We want distributed decision making one different, you know, what's the latest
Daniel Franco:job to remove the bollards in the way that they can enable? Yes,
Frank Vassallo:yeah, to work. So if you don't have that, and you're trying to adopt agile ways of working or you know, new ways of working, that aligned better to the way we need to work to do the work we do, which is knowledge based work. It's complex, you know, it's that whole vuca, right, volatile, uncertain, complex, ambiguous. If you don't have that style of leadership, then you're going to have an which is what we do have 84% of people disengaged. But you know, it doesn't mean you can introduce an agile if you don't introduce agile, poorly, you probably still have 85% of people disengaged, because you need the leadership. You need those. You need all those leaders working together, right, the organization, the leadership, even the teams right there, this you know, I work with a lot of teams. Some people don't want it, but they still just want to come in and be told what to do and want to work in the way they've been working for a long time. They don't see the benefit and change in that change. They liked the silos where they go, they don't want to collaborate this you know, it's it's everyone's got a part to play in it. But, you know, intrinsically, I think leadership's got a bigger stake in the game, because they're the ones ultimately creating that environment. Alright, so
Daniel Franco:I'm that leader that I discussed before this Yeah, that person that comes in and says, We want to move to an agile way of working? How do I sell it to the business? How do I paint the picture? What does great look like? What's an organization that is doing? You know, you're working looking at? What is an organization? And what does it look like? What does it look like? Yeah, that is successful using the Agile methodology? Yeah.
Frank Vassallo:Yeah, wish Okay, I think the first one that comes to mind is Rei group, credit realestate.com. And I haven't worked or been inside that organization, but have heard Nigel Dalton, who is no longer with them, but he is he was the chief inventor. That was his role chief inventor at the Rei group, pretty cool job and a great speaker. He's actually the godfather of Agile in Australia. And I've heard him speak couple of times. And it's a pretty cool guy, actually, because he actually does not he is one of the few people I know, in that in that sort of sphere that will he does not have a LinkedIn profile. He's very big on Twitter. Yeah. But Nigel spoke spoke about Rei group. And, and I think, for me, this just hit the nail on the head, because he was saying, you know, we are a very, you know, agile company. And probably, they're probably one of the leaders and agility in Australia for a long time. But they don't talk about agility as such, they they sort of get teams to also one of the things he talks about as the team's self assess themselves on how they're going, okay? And they just, they look at five things. Are we visualizing our work? So and when NASA visualizing the meaning is everything that we're doing known to us and everyone else? transparency? Is the work prioritize. So everyone knows what's important. We're all focused. That's a big part of agility, right? You know, like, if you really want to get shit done really was he got a limit? limit when it comes with? Yes, limit the work in progress. So let's approach so we visualize work, prioritize what we own the work. So we own it. So we're not waiting for someone to push something onto us. Now, it's a pool system, as a rule, combat principle, we made all the work, you're going to own it, if you need help, I'm gonna help you. So visualized, prioritize, and we have daily conversations, whatever that means, right? We just were having conversations when I wouldn't behind process,
Daniel Franco:we don't necessarily need to stand up, we can sit down, you can sit there,
Frank Vassallo:you can sit there, I think there's a point to sit down. However you do it. Right. Yeah, that's very good point. And then the third and final one, which is a really big thing is that you're stopping at regular times to reflect and improve. Right, right. And I'm looking at the system and work. And so it's really common sense, right? Yeah. And, you know, again, I'm not I'm not on the, on his payroll, but Alistair Coburn, he got frustrated, he got frustrated with the whole agile, you know, industrial complex, and all this stuff that was coming out. And I 10 or so years ago, came up with his heart of agile, right? And there's a really simple, you know, collaborate, deliver, reflect, improve. And there's things but below that, you know, it's deeper than just that. But ultimately, this stuff's really simple. And the heart of it is, is around the way we do those things. So back to your example before, like, when we're developing software back in the day, there was no, it was all thrown over the fence stuff. Yeah, throw it over to the next guys. And then the next group and the next group, and yeah, yeah,
Daniel Franco:so but I think where I'm going this and I'm sorry for putting you on the spot. If we can't rattle off 20 companies right now, which companies are all doing, how do we measure success there? How do we actually measure the Agile is the wrong methodology?
Frank Vassallo:Yes, yeah. I see your point. And I think, you know, could I rattle off companies in Adelaide that I've seen that are doing really, really well? sort of feel like I can't, I could probably say companies I think that are doing a good job of it. I think that's part of my utopian reading. Yeah, we all look at companies around the world. And I say, oh, wow, look at those guys. Well, yeah, I've never seen anything like that. And Natalie, so for example, you know, if you really look around, I'll just stick with Adelaide, right? Like, there's, there's lots of innovative ways to run and lead and manage organizations, with your staff and for your customers that we don't even I'd find it really hard to find anyone practicing some techniques. So we have very traditional budgeting, very traditional ways of managing performance in our staff. There's lots of things that are, you know, it's part of what we're trying to uncover with reinventing work. You know, earlier this year, we had someone come in and talk to us about beyond budgeting, which is a complete, different way of looking at the way you do budgets, right. And a lot of it goes back is actually based around principles and mindset. I don't see organizations in Adelaide doing that. And in our little group, the people that are coming, are frustrated with the environment we're in, but there isn't anyone in the room that could actually make a significant change. So all we can do is, is try to make that little incremental changes from wherever we are. Yeah. And try to try to
Daniel Franco:it's an interesting, it's one that I've always thought about. At the Agile we had to win, how do you measure it and measure the benefit of following this particular methodology compared to any other methodologies?
Frank Vassallo:Well, one of the measures, so I'm pretty big on that was starting, say, a coaching program. Yeah, these are words that we identify how we're going to measure something, even if it's just an experiment. So something simple, tangible, intangible, so a good one to measure would be staff engagement. Most organizations do surveys, yeah. So you know, get a baseline, you know, with this team, or this unit, or the whole organization? And seeing seeing if that shifts the dark, probably the critical one is looking at the outcomes you're trying to achieve. with us. Yeah, most of the throttle. So even even that question about if I think back to what you just asked me about companies doing, you know, great agile, probably the, the the answer should be who's who's getting great outcomes? And who get you know, who cares if they Yeah, using agile or call agile or whatever they're doing? So that's a good bit of advice I got from
Daniel Franco:so basically all worldleading companies doing it, doing well, yeah, yeah.
Frank Vassallo:Yeah. But even then, they, it'd be interesting to look under the covers this is
Daniel Franco:this is wrong. Yeah. Are they? Well, those companies turn around and say, are we are we stalled at our agile methodology? Like,
Frank Vassallo:or they might say, a puzzle, frankly, we're using scientific management and it works just fine. Yeah. Well,
Daniel Franco:I'm not trying to Yeah, I'm not trying to, you know, downplay the importance of it. I think it's just from a selling point of view you're trying to work with leaders who aren't agreeing to take this on it's it's it's an influencing This is the companies that are using it, and this is the benefit This is how quickly they move this through the line. If we can show those examples. Yeah, then we can get leaders on board quicker because it's helped me you know, talking you talking, especially be going to the CFO and trying to get these people that's exactly how I tell you about the return on investment of using this methodology. We can see things go through quicker 30% This means it's less what Yeah, and we save millions or Yeah, whatever, it might reduce risk, or it's all about building a business case. Right? Yeah. So I think that's what I'm trying to get to is how do we help people understand that Yeah, sell to the business if they're trying to bring it in that I know
Frank Vassallo:you know, if the conversation if I was talking to a CFO or CEO or CIO, and said I can come in and you know, you're gonna you're gonna create this I can help you create this wonderful agile team and it's just gonna be the best agilus in the world is probably just look at me, his eyes will glaze over and go away. Yeah, but if I came in and said, Can I help you save money or deliver faster and have a happy workforce, you know, my, you know, the folks that Okay, now now I want to have a chat the previous
Daniel Franco:project, we ran two projects simultaneously, one with an fo agile methodology, the other one with that one, and we saw 30%, or whatever it might be, if you can show some data that what you've done previously,
Frank Vassallo:it's it's it's definitely an area that I know from, again, personal view that it's a big, big part to build on, because it's, it's, you know, where's that, where's that value? I know from my coaching, and I'm one With a simple I'm not gonna know from a coaching, coaching perspective, particularly with individuals or small teams, you just look for a new, what I hope for, you know, a new thought, a new action, something that comes out of it, and then something you can look at later like, Okay, how did that go? So you can sort of measure it. But at that level, is that more? Let's see they call it out C suite level, it's a different Yeah, different set of thinking. It is. Yeah. And that's
Daniel Franco:really if we're talking about implementing change within an organization, we need to be able to convince those who sit in the, you know, decision making room that why this is important. We need and we need to get these guys on board to deliver because we know it works, right. Like I'm not I'm not Yeah,
Frank Vassallo:no, it's about what how you can have that. Or co-created correct with people as well. I know from the my down the line project management, though. So I did that for a long time that that's what I started getting exposed to agile ways of working for you. This makes a lot more sense to me. Yeah. Is that, you know, you generally would create a plan, and costs and time what you need to deliver something when you knew the least about it. Yeah. And then you just, you know, hang on to it for dear life for the next 18 months. Because you got to get measured, and
Daniel Franco:there's no, there's no golden area is there like, every every situation is different. I do I am interested in how x or no one of the values and the Agile values is enable face to face interactions, right? It's one of the 12 not one of these principles. One of the one of the
Frank Vassallo:tools. Yeah, one of the one of the one of the values is individuals, and interactions or processes.
Daniel Franco:Yeah. So But then one of the principal principal is face to face. Yeah. How's that gone over? The pandemic, when we've moved to teams is that there's, you know, we talked about sticking within the parameters, all of a sudden that's playing out.
Frank Vassallo:Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think it's, there's lots of I, there's, there's ideal, ideal scenario, ideal environment like so the, you know, the best environment you can have with with, say, a team working in Agile ways that they're all co located, and they're all cross functional. And, you know, all the conversation happening, you know, face to face or in the same room, you know, even that, because you can hear conversations, all this intrinsic knowledge that you get thinking, you know, I can hear Yeah, you're talking to Gary the other in the room about something. Yeah. But when you don't have that, then you just have to create environments, you know, create Grebner a way of working to deal with that. So yes, was the pandemic, you've sort of lost that? So we're on? We're on zoom or, or whatever. Yeah.
Daniel Franco:has it affected the way it's,
Frank Vassallo:I think, I think it has to uprising, there's I know, when I've gone back into face to face, it's better. Yeah.
Daniel Franco:How do you do a stand up? So I just like it, I get so cross with the stand up stuff. But anyway,
Frank Vassallo:yeah, that's a good point. I mean, and you know, what I always tend to ask, you know, I say that, you know, the mantra is, take it to the team. Yeah, head head, head, you want to be exactly the team want everyone to stand, you know? Or if the team want to, you know, I think that's, I think that's a it's a, it's a bad example, because there's actually there's actually another side to it, where, you know, people may not be able to do so. But the other face to face, I think there's, there's definitely it's it's better, like you mentioned we're doing this remotely would be a lot that we wouldn't this
Daniel Franco:is a big part of the reason. Early on, we started the podcast, and then the pandemic here. And we will try to figure out if we could do it over zoom. And yes, you can, but it's
Frank Vassallo:not it's not the same. But that example that that principle, a common thing I like to do with teams is, is look at the principles as a group language. And I start out and, and agreed and what you know, which of these things that we're doing well, or what what, you know, what does that mean to us, right? in our context, and that context changes all the time. So we know if the agreements are that we're going to have face to face conversations about certain types of work or items and not do it on email or not do it on phone or whatever, and then things changed and re reevaluate that right. So you know, for me, the key one, there would be you know, how, how do we make those interactions work? Yeah.
Daniel Franco:And then there would being adaptive, never being adaptive.
Frank Vassallo:Maybe there's a better way. Yeah, probably maximum.
Daniel Franco:So do you insane We're also talking about the pandemic in the way we've worked in the past 12 months. Do you believe that the Agile methodology will survive through this hybrid way of working? Or what are you?
Frank Vassallo:Yeah, I think I think so. I think Yeah, I don't, I don't see. Yeah, I think
Daniel Franco:I think if you're looking at a little AI or the BA
Frank Vassallo:Yeah, well, I said my, my, my starting point, always fall back to the middle. Right. So that's the important part about how people work together. And even pre pandemic there's a lot and I'm particularly in my world was working a lot with distributed teams anyway. We had people offshore and yeah, different timezones. I, you know, I think, you know, the future, I'm seeing teams coming back together or in Yeah, in, in an office environment, and it's good that they come to some agreements where maybe during their uncertain days or times when they are together, but I think from a you know, this whatever the future holds, sort of a bit of a guess isn't really but I think agile as a as a way of working the mindset, values and principles and how that's translated and yet still holds up. There there are some people in that 17 that went up in the mountain they don't want to have anything to do Oh, really? Yeah, cuz it for them, it got twisted and, and got taken down a road. That was never their intention. So they completely for the image all is dead. Which is, it's always a nice way to start an agile conference of its myself. The agile is dead. Well,
Daniel Franco:yeah. Yeah. That was gonna be one of my right. Yeah. Is it? Do you think that the big a agile is dead?
Frank Vassallo:No, I don't think that's dead. Or I think you I think, yeah, I think you got to do that well, as well. But you can't look. So you can't do that in isolation is no point having a water bottle with nothing in it. So yeah, you
Daniel Franco:can so you need some sort of framework. Yeah. But you're not omega omega. agnostic. Yeah, I am actually looking, you actually train and coach people on how to just deliver a project? Well, yeah,
Frank Vassallo:I might take them through particular frameworks or practices or, you know, mindset or different techniques. And I think there's a lot in, in combining certain frameworks, a lot of it will depend, it's a horrible thing to have to sales depends a lot on the context been that I don't know all the frameworks, but you know, I know some of them. So what I find useful is actually the partner up with other people that have the skills and specific skills in certain areas. So my, I really have more of a, I guess, passion for that, that the little a, the the being agile side and helping people through that. And then when I reach a point where I need other expertise, and that's when I would help people find that that expertise or, or work with them, because there's lots of aside from the frameworks, there's a myriad of tools, and then also techniques, right? So if you get really deep into that technical site, technical agility, that's another error in itself. And I think so I think you need both. Yeah. It's a little bit like the values the values are. That's a good one that's misunderstood working software, or working product, whatever is over comprehensive documentation doesn't mean we don't document Yeah, it just means we value we value the working software working for like more. Yeah, and it's the same thing with this sort of being agile over doing agile, they're both important, but there's more value in being agile. And you need that. So
Daniel Franco:yeah, absolutely. Where does, where does change management come into play by in this whole space?
Frank Vassallo:It's all it's all. It's like, it's completely integrate. I'm looking my, my head. Yes, it's a big part and my experience with agile initiatives, you know, adopting agile ways of working is that the change effort is generally underestimated. Oh, no, we see that you see that all the time. Yeah, that's just underestimate it's a big part. So the simple the simple part about this is if you're looking to uplift or make make significant change, and in that in this this type of working, and you know, I've drank the Kool Aid, so that's it, I'm done wrong there. But there will be people that you know, it's like with any, any change that are already there that are championing it but there's there'll be a lot of resistance and there'll be a lot of fear, there'll be a lot of things that are difficult for people to adapt to. Because it is completely different. So, you know, a person and team that used to be told what to do, you know, and then all of a sudden they're told to self organize with their colleagues. And they just, you know, that's a big change. Yeah. And so it's a big part of
Daniel Franco:it within an education pace into how to do that isn't Yeah,
Frank Vassallo:there's that and also getting there is that that mindset shift, mindset shift is big. And I think, you know, change management has a big role to play in that and helping people navigate that. Make that bridge,
Daniel Franco:making the journey. Yeah, a much more enjoyable. Yeah, along the way, isn't it?
Frank Vassallo:Yeah. So you start with this is, this is our culture's our organization, our leadership, our teams, and then to move to a, you know, whatever that next iteration is? that's ongoing. I think that's the thing. It's an ongoing, it's ongoing fluid. Yeah,
Daniel Franco:yeah. 100%. I think we're coming up to we're pretty much past that our My gosh, we've gone, we find through that went fast. It does. What is your future outlook for? This community?
Frank Vassallo:Yes, that's a really good question. I think from from my perspective, it's, it's really gone back to our starting that that community collaborating and like I was just touching on this, that there's, you know, um, there's only certain aspects that, that I or that we can do individually, or even as small groups. So it's about the way we can come together and do work collectively and solve problems and make might make the world a better place. I mean, I definitely business agility, like, agility outside of it. It's not something new. But I think there's still there's a long way to go there and and that's a lot of opportunities there. And that's, that's where I'm on quite passionate about that. Absolutely. Yeah, I think it's, it's, it's an ongoing, someone said to me recently, which I quite like that that analogy, because the I hate that word. It's a journey. Yeah, you know, it's like it's a dance, right? So we're having, we're having an end the dance will continue, as lawful and more even itself will shift and adapt a little bit, but it will continue, we just need to be, you know, ready, ready for what's ahead,
Daniel Franco:and a new song will come on, you just need a new moves when you create some new. Next one, you're gonna grab seven, eight of your closest mates, and go up to the ski resort and come up with a code where you could come up with a new methodology based on the hybrid model.
Frank Vassallo:Seriously, today, I saw a post this is another I think it's called actually goes back to your question. It's called coma I because it was remote, if yet, which had a bit of a connotation, but yeah, then I click the link. Yeah, I click the link, and it's that it's basically remote, agile, remote agility framework. Okay. And there's a whole lot of if references. Okay, here's another one. Yeah, right. There's, there's also there's a few different, you know, blends and flavors. Yeah. agility framework, requisite agility. So yeah, there's Yeah, there's another group that came out. We don't need more. I don't think so. No. outcomes. Yeah, that's
Daniel Franco:beautiful. Frank, we are at the end of the show. We really like to ask you quickfire questions to kind of put you on the spot a little bit. Okay. You've listened to any of the other podcasts you probably come prepared. If not then so be it. My fault. The were big Listen, be Raiders here. So I'm really interested in books and you may have mentioned this throughout the way so can you recommend someone recommend one of the books that have the biggest impact on you in your career?
Frank Vassallo:Yeah, just just of light. The strong toilet between two one is leading together leading Susan best to field they've actually done I've done some liberating structures at work with her. She's one of the authors. I've just actually read that late last year. I really liked that book because it's, it takes that book from Frederick laloux, reinventing organizations and actually starts to show you how to apply it. Okay. So as I said in that book, he sort of gets to the end and says, you haven't got to see our board. You know, thinking like this thing, good luck, but there are things that you can yet practically do to introduce This new ways of working so Susan and the group that she sort of works with they they're really big on this, you know, self managing self organizing organization. So leading together
Daniel Franco:learning together, yeah. He says number one, number two,
Frank Vassallo:yeah, the other one would be from the ready, which is brave new work from Aaron Dickman, I, yeah, that's that one. There was also something I read. I probably read that a few years ago. And that's what really got me in I'm really looking at this the way we need to work in the future. So to that step from, I guess, Mark, where I started out in my project delivery, agile delivery, to really start to get that focus about how we should be treating each other and how, yeah, we need to work. So yeah, Aaron Dickman, the ready, not from the ready for revenue work. Yeah. Number two, yeah.
Daniel Franco:If you had, if you could visit your 10 year old self, what advice would you give yourself?
Frank Vassallo:Listen to dad. Listen to your dad. No, no, I think I think it would be just to to take some more risks. Don't be afraid. Yeah. And. And don't stop. Don't stop learning. Be true to yourself. Yeah. 10 years old or something? Or I wasn't Yeah. No. Probably was getting taught was nuns. Got a lot to answer. Well, it was a different time. Yeah, we're talking about long time ago. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of people in this room weren't born then.
Daniel Franco:No, I I reason why I asked that is because you know, I've got two young kids, and I like to hear advice that you would give. I could phrase it into what would you give? What advice would you give it to the young generation today? It's the same thing.
Frank Vassallo:It's a beautiful questions. I've got an 11 year old at home, so I'm gonna go see him after this. So
Daniel Franco:yeah, I think it is one lucky you because what you said Don't be afraid to take some risks, make some mistakes. It's the growth mindset. Yeah. Yeah, man, I
Frank Vassallo:know. And that's what I like, right? I wouldn't I know, with my son, when I went to his school, one day, when he was in year two or three, I was in the classroom looking around, and there's all these little pictures, I use those pictures in my workshops around growth mindset. And I just hope that the organization's institutions that we create, in the future that he's going to go into, and all our kids are going to go into have actually adopted the thing. This right, what you know, I believe it's the right way of working Yeah, the future and not that they then get, they go through all this and then get lumped into institutions and organizations that are managed the way that they you know, have have been for hundreds of years. You know, that's that, that whole utopian thing, which we need to have a better way,
Daniel Franco:I got a I got a theory about this study, unless you're a business that it's adopting an innovative culture and in that growth mindset mentality, you're going to get left behind because essentially, you're going to have our kids Generation Y, I've got a nine year old and a seven year old, they, they were gonna be very self aware from the sense of what what they're actually trying to achieve here. And if they move into a business, and they're not allowed to try something new, they're gonna walk out
Frank Vassallo:yeah. So we're in the midst of this we're part of this transition. Here
Daniel Franco:we are. Yes. Well, I hope Ben I yeah. Hopefully Kate my children enough to understand that they may, you know, they're in rallies and whatnot. So what's the one item on your bucket list other than learning how to make lasagna? Yeah.
Frank Vassallo:And well, I think from from apart from golf, that's my big passion outside of my family and work. I think I think if I my bucket list in terms of my professional work would be I've just started you know, effect diva, you know, more effective Yep. And I'd love to be able to just keep doing it till I till I you know, retire whatever that means, you know, so like, that would be a nice thing. Yeah,
Daniel Franco:so build a nice yeah, I need to grow the business.
Frank Vassallo:Yeah, to a point Yeah, I like the idea of that building network collaborating so I like the sense of being independent but that small bit a lot here and then but also like the idea of building up that network of collaboration and I'm you know that that's done a little bit of that really doing very well. So, but yeah, be nice to travel again. Yes, overseas, want my family, but like overseas, my wife's family are all in Germany. So that's, that would be nice to do. regularly
Daniel Franco:Fingers crossed 2022 is the yearly
Frank Vassallo:and true power at Mount compass Yeah, alright yeah that'd be nice um so I have
Daniel Franco:that you know I thought playing golf for a while you shouldn't be at that level now if you had access to a time machine and you had a return trip photo back where would you go
Frank Vassallo:oh wow I got this. I got this media full hour to go back to someone want to see some of my ancestors know where I came from? Yeah, I'm named after my grandfather. Yeah, never met him or really, father. My father probably didn't even know him that well. I think my father was six or seven when he passed away. So I'd love to go back and see where I came from. Because I think I think there's a big part of me is there yeah that's from pretty yeah that's a very personal
Daniel Franco:Yeah, no, that's your point. Yeah,
Frank Vassallo:I think I like to go back to my grandfather. The one I never met Yeah, and my grandmother said let's see my dad yeah in Italy Yeah, yeah,
Daniel Franco:they were they never made the trip out here.
Frank Vassallo:They never did because he Yeah, well, dad my father came as a 20 year old Okay, and I think the Euro was born. My Mr. His mum. My grandmother passed away in Italy, so yeah, I'd go back there a lot to see what it was like used before. Yeah, but probably before we
Daniel Franco:would be great. If you had one superhero power, or could have one superpower what would it be? superheroes? I'm a big Marvel fan. Yeah,
Frank Vassallo:I'm scared of heights. Be nice to deal with that one. Yeah, yeah, so
Daniel Franco:it's your superhero passive fly Yeah.
Frank Vassallo:That's one of the Is it like Superman is a spider man is he was informed of that category. Well, spider man got
Daniel Franco:bitten by a spider they gave me a very realistic scenario. Some of these fighters are saying
Frank Vassallo:is there a superhero that can
Daniel Franco:use your superhero choose whatever you want? Yeah to follow another
Frank Vassallo:does sound sounds terrible but you know how can change someone's
Daniel Franco:not help them see
Frank Vassallo:a different way? Or Yeah, maybe not. Maybe I'll flip it won't be so judgmental today. And if I can put myself in someone else's mind for for a period of time and then come out of this thing and understand fully what what the what they're really thinking. Yeah. Yeah, that would be interesting. Yeah. Sounds a bit odd when you put it that way.
Daniel Franco:Next, you know, I know I've thought about the monitoring thing I'm having enough trouble dealing with my own thoughts, let alone others but no, I hadn't
Frank Vassallo:thought of it. That also was more about just for a split second. Yeah. What are you really? Yeah, no, it probably would probably would not be beneficial.
Daniel Franco:Especially Yeah, you're very your man have great empathy towards other people. So
Frank Vassallo:it wouldn't they wouldn't do me any Friday night. Yeah.
Daniel Franco:And last, but not least, you
Frank Vassallo:have any little ones? Just the one? Boy,
Daniel Franco:a boy. 11 years old. 11 years. So you've got a few dad jokes. And
Frank Vassallo:I'll tell you what. I felt like I did one today. Okay, but it was more of an incident. So I went to get my GED twice. Every two years. I have a hearing test. Yeah. My EMT guy. Yeah, at North Adelaide. And because I've got I've got Yeah, anyway, that's another story. But anyway, I'm getting my journey. It's not a joke. This is the person that comes to mind. So anyway, I'm doing the hearing test. And all of a sudden, the lady comes in and says, Now I've got to put another headphone on the other side and put play some noise. Because something about that you left and right here. Yeah. And all of a sudden she's setting me up. So I've got all these headphones in a in one in one in one out the other. And I said, Is this an April Fool's some sort of April Fool's joke. And she just looked at me sternly and I said, that's just a dad joke. I don't know if it wasn't an April Fool's joke. Yeah, I don't know. That's dead joke. Sorry.
Daniel Franco:That's fine. It's brilliant. Thank you very much for your talk. Today, Frank. It's been been great. Great chatting and learning about your love of the Agile methodology. Yeah.
Frank Vassallo:Hopefully one good thought one new idea
Daniel Franco:and yeah that's that's basically if you can take something away from it I'm sure people will say thank you very much for your time where can we find you? Like Where? LinkedIn? Your website
Frank Vassallo:not mount comp ss No. Yeah LinkedIn are easy to find they're frankly solid A. ws Who? Perfect generally Fra co Francesco yeah grande eff ct diva Yep.
Daniel Franco:how do you spell that.com ewfktiv.com? d ppl p.com. PPO? Yeah, okay. I'll be Oh, yes,
Frank Vassallo:yes. Yeah. People people yeah, the other site will be my wife's company
Daniel Franco:which is
Frank Vassallo:given a blog is hers as effect diva. Okay. And she does. Yes, strategic marketing, tourism. Okay. Tough gig at the moment. But she's doing like a
Daniel Franco:beautiful thanks for your time again. Thanks, everyone. Cheers, guys. Cheers.
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