Michelle Holland is an international best-selling author, speaker, consultant, and the Founder and Creative Director of SynergyIQ. She has over 20 years of experience helping businesses to create better outcomes through processes, people and customer engagement.
In this episode, Michelle talks about the top 10 reasons people resist change, according to her experience and research, and what you can do about it.
For more, download our free ebook and find out how to overcome resistance and lead change. FREE EBOOK - TOP 10 REASONS PEOPLE RESIST CHANGE
Join the conversation on Synergy IQ LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram (@synergyiq) and please support other leaders by liking, subscribing and sharing this podcast.
Access SynergyIQ Website to get to know more about us.
Here is Michelle's LinkedIn Profile
Here is Daniel's LinkedIn Profile
For more information about Dare to Lead™ Program and tickets, please visit the page.
Michelle Holland is an international best-selling author, speaker, consultant, and the Founder and Creative Director of SynergyIQ. She has over 20 years of experience helping businesses to create better outcomes through processes, people and customer engagement.
In this episode, Michelle talks about the top 10 reasons people resist change, according to her experience and research, and what you can do about it.
For more, download our free ebook and find out how to overcome resistance and lead change. FREE EBOOK - TOP 10 REASONS PEOPLE RESIST CHANGE
Join the conversation on Synergy IQ LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram (@synergyiq) and please support other leaders by liking, subscribing and sharing this podcast.
Access SynergyIQ Website to get to know more about us.
Here is Michelle's LinkedIn Profile
Here is Daniel's LinkedIn Profile
For more information about Dare to Lead™ Program and tickets, please visit the page.
Welcome to creating synergy where we explore what it takes to transform. Whether you are transforming yourself, your team, your business, or your community will connect you with insightful and challenging leaders who share their stories of successful transformations. To give you practical ideas for your own journey, join us for another insightful episode of creating synergy.
Daniel Franco:So welcome back to the creating synergy podcast. My name is Daniel Franco, your host and today we have we're welcome back again. Michelle Holland, who is the director of Synergy IQ. Hello, Michelle, thank you for being here again. We are gonna discuss resistance to change today seems a quite a topical piece at the moment. So it's just interesting to be interested to hear your thoughts about the whole subject.
Michelle Holland:Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Daniel Franco:Synergy IQ, I do a lot of work with businesses and cultural leadership and change and you are seeing a lot of resistance to change at the moment.
Michelle Holland:Well, I'm seeing a lot of people talking about resistance, definitely. But and it's always part of any time you engage in a transformation or or change processes, the element of people not necessarily wanting that change. And that's generally called resistance to change. But there's many different reasons why people resist change if they're going to. But I think the first most interesting conversation or topic is, do people actually resist change?
Daniel Franco:Yeah, I was gonna ask that question. Is it something that you would see quite often and then why, I guess to, to why is changed such a taboo thing for people?
Michelle Holland:It is funny, actually, because I think we were talking with one of our clients not long ago, and they were saying, We don't use the word change anymore. It's become the C word in the in the office. And it is really interesting, I think, because change is often difficult for people. And it is because particularly organizational change, when we're looking at organizational change, it might be that we are introducing a new way of working or a new system or new practice or a new person, or whatever the change might be, it might be, we're delivering a new service. Now to our customer, when delivering a new product, we're engaging in a different way. And unless people are really involved in that creation of the idea, there is usually some trepidation about what that change is. The other aspect is that change isn't managed very well, in most organizations. There's this assumption, I think, from many people, or many managers that if the change looks good, then people should just get on board and do it. The unfortunate thing is, is generally you think that change looks good, because you've created the change yourself. People don't resist change that they create themselves. So people don't resist change that has a big benefit for them. You know, if I handed you a million dollars, that's a change. So change to you that's
Daniel Franco:changed your life change, I reckon I'd be able to handle pretty well.
Michelle Holland:Yeah, that's exactly right. Most people would be quite happy to be handed a million dollars and figure it out along the way. What does that mean, as far as changing my life? Because there's a lot of what's in it for them? Yeah. Whereas change in organizations is sometimes thrust upon people.
Daniel Franco:So what is change in an organization that I like, And because we don't manage it very well, there is a lack of communication, there might be a lack of understanding about what this change actually is. So it is a really interesting thing to think about. Because, you know, as humans, we change and evolve every day, you know, the person that we were when we were two years old, does not exist anymore. That person has completely disappeared, and we have changed, evolved, morphed into a completely different human being. So we do that constant, we're constantly changing in a physical format, we get older, wrinkles, you know, we change our hair color, whatever it might be. We're constantly changing. because we work with a lot of clients, in corporations, businesses that believe when we walk in there for the first time, they believe that change is literally moving this piece of information from here to over there, or we're getting this new product, and we want to be rolled out. Is that more project management? Or is what it was the difference between project management and change management? Maybe it's probably a better question.
Michelle Holland:Yeah. So companies make change all the time and the change that's been made might be the new program or it might be the new product and might be the we're moving offices or we might make a move to, you know, the activity based working is quite popular nowadays as well. So we're
Daniel Franco:So why come the project manager Doodle, changing the environment, that change is going to happen, regardless, the difference between managing the change that happens, which is project management, so I'm implementing a new computer system, I'm going to set milestones along the way, there are certain activities I need to do, there's purchases that I need to make, there are things that I have to do to actually make that change happen. So I've now introduced a new CRM, let's say you're into the business, I can do that and do it quite simply, in a project management methodology. The real issue with change is that if I introduce this new system, there are human beings that actually have to utilize that system, to make it efficient, to make it work to make it useful to make it worth my time implementing time and money. That's exactly right. So it's the human being part of it. And it's the actual acceptance of the change, and the application of the change, and the applied, you know, experience that I've got into a different way of working. That's where change management is really important. So, you know, the term change management, to me is the wrong terminology as well, because the project manager actually manages the change. Yes, you know, that's the change that happens. the Change Manager, as we tend to call them, is the actually the person that helps manage the human interaction with this new way. And it's the the acceptance of changes, the engagement in change is the adoption of the change that actually is what's managed by the Change Manager.
Michelle Holland:the project manager could absolutely do it all with the right capabilities, there's no reason why a project manager has got a really good understanding of the way in which humans interact, the way in which humans behave and change, there's no reason they couldn't do it, I think what's ended up happening is we've created this, you know, change manager role. Because you know, a lot of project managers, they get really busy, and they want to hit those milestones. And they don't necessarily have enough time to put into speaking with all of the people that need to be spoken to stakeholders, key stakeholders, and really understanding what it means for them. A lot of project managers tend to have a very technical understanding of the change that they're making. So particularly in the IT space, you know, they've got the really good understanding of that technical application and how it actually shifts and moves and how to get the tech people involved and the other moving parts that need to happen to create the change. They don't necessarily have the skill set to enable them to go, Okay, how is the end user going to actually interact with this system? How is the person that works with the end user going to be impacted by the fact that this end user is now distracted into something else? You know, is there an impact on that team environment? So I think with organizational change, and particularly if it is something that goes across the whole, you know, business unit or the whole business, there is a culture shift that needs to happen. There is a group dynamic shift that happens in change. There's team dynamic that happens in change, and then there's the individual change that actually occurs as well. So having an understanding of how groups change how organizations change, and the cultural elements that sit across have that help you to understand the nature of what we need to look at when we're looking at change. A lot of time, we end up just focusing on the process change, which is important, but we forget about the interactive human individual change. So when we think about an organization say that the organization has 3000 people, not only do we have to think about how the organization is changing, and the how that the culture might impact on that change, not only do we have to think about how each individual group might be interacting with this new system, and then the processes that sit in between the systems and how they go from one team to the next team. But then we've got each individual person within each individual team that's responding to this change in a different way. Some people will absolutely grab hold of it and run with it. And then there's others that want. And that's those others are the ones that we call change resistors. Yeah. And it's not necessarily that they are resisting their change, they might be just not understanding what the change is or not communications have been some. Absolutely, yeah. So I've been doing I mean, I've been involved in change for a very, very long time, and looking at different, you know, ways that people do resist, and looking at the research that people have, you know, come out with, as far as why people seem to resist, as we call it change. And there seems to be 10, what I've kind of boiled up to 10 key categories of why people actually resist change. So I can go through them.
Daniel Franco:My next question was, what are common resistances that you would say that is able to work? What are the common ways, ways that people are wise?
Michelle Holland:Yeah, it's probably more wise. People resist changes change? Yeah, absolutely. So the first one is the why that's what I've put it down to is the very first one. And this is the one we more often see is missing in organizations, particularly in that more project change space, is a really clear understanding of why a really clear purpose, really inspiring meaning behind the why, you know, why are we putting in this new program? It's not just the new CRM that's important. It's the, what happens as a result of that? What are the benefits for this change? Like, what is what can I get behind, that's going to get me excited about this new way of working? Because it's going to take time for me to learn something new, it's going to take energy for me to do something different. Why am I going to do that if I'm not excited by the future?
Daniel Franco:So don't even need the new product. Change should start, where does change that change?
Michelle Holland:Well, it can start in many different places. But I think one of the critical aspects of if you're going to be running a project to make an organizational change, is to be really, really clear about why you're doing it. Okay, like really, really clear, and so clear that you and anybody else around you can communicate it to other people. So if I go into an organization, and I say to, you know, a staff member, why are you implementing this new CRM? And they say, because management told me to?
Daniel Franco:And we've got an issue,
Michelle Holland:we've got a problem. Yeah, absolutely. If they can then say to me, Well, what we've discovered is that the customer journey is going to benefit from having this CRM because it allows us to connect into three different points. It allows us to engage with them in different way. It allows them to us to serve them in a different way, it increases their experience, because we're not distracted with this other stuff. So we can focus on them. If they start talking to me about that, then I go, Okay, we're here. We're good.
Daniel Franco:So it's the purpose led thing again,
Michelle Holland:it's a purpose led thing? Absolutely. So there has to be purpose, there has to be meaning behind that. Why for people to actually get on board with it? And if they don't see it, they're not going to buy in with that. Yeah. So that's number one.
Daniel Franco:Even if they don't buy in, if they communicated correctly, that they tend to not resist it as much, I guess.
Michelle Holland:It was the understanding of why I see why I can see why supporting but it makes sense. It makes sense to me. That's right. There's a logic behind it. Yeah. So that goes on to number two, which is the WIIFM with them? What's in it for me? What's in it for me? What's in it for me? And look, that one is very much on an individual basis, if we are going to engage with a new way of working or a new technology or a new product or a new way of you know, speaking to our customers, whatever it is, there has to be some benefit for me to do that.
Daniel Franco:When new CRM is exactly something that you know, people out in the field. How does this benefit me? Absolutely. It only benefits head office
Michelle Holland:totally, totally, you know, and if it's like, I need to do this new reporting, well, how does that benefit me takes time away from me? What does what is the benefit? And this is where and this is? A lot of the work that the Change Manager does is really finding out from individuals is what is it for them? What are the benefits that they can see? That's going to actually help them do their job, because if they can see benefits for them, then they'll get on board pretty quickly. If there's no benefits for them at all, they then need to connect back into that bigger picture Why? And then what's in it for me is being part of something bigger than myself. That's a bigger connection piece that takes a lot more thought and energy around it. But being able to understand what is what am I doing in this? You know, what is my piece of this puzzle? Why is it going to be good for me? We're selfish creature as humans. So we need to understand, if we're going to put our energy into something that we're going to get a return on that investment.
Daniel Franco:And generally, if that there is nothing in it for them, it's either it's not so much a resistance, but a lack of care,
Michelle Holland:There could be a bit of an apathy to it as well. And I mean, some people will just get on with it and go, Okay, I just need to do this report. And the boss says, so And I'll just do it. It's not to say that it'll be the most engaging, you know, report that they'll ever get. But they'll do it, they just
Daniel Franco:change becomes a bit of a journey, because that's absolutely as opposed to the result.
Michelle Holland:Yes, yes. And there has to be a lot of, there's a lot of conversation in change. The other thing that we have to have, which brings me to number three is the skills. People fear that they won't have the skills and the ability to actually do whatever the changes. I worked in an organization a number of years ago, and they were putting in a new system. And I remember speaking with a couple of their people, their administrative people in recreation center. And they were just going I know the other system backwards and forwards, like, I know, it's clunky. And it's old fashioned, but I know it. And now they're asking me to learn this new system. And, you know, it's hard. And I understand that it's, you know, I've been using that other one for 10 years, and now I'm having to use this new one. And what if I get it wrong? What if I put something in the wrong place? You know, there's a real fear around competence. It's craziness. It's quite amazing. And it's one of the fears that people don't tend to talk about as much either because they're actually fearful of, if I can't do it, and somebody knows that I can't do it, I might lose my job. Because there's a huge amount of fear around that. One of the pieces of research that Dr. Bernie brown did was that the number one fear in organizations is the fear of irrelevance. You know, and that really comes back to if something's just organizations, I think it's definitely but you know, something's shifting around me, and I don't have the skills and the abilities to be able to pick it up straight away. And somebody sitting next to me is picking it up straightaway, Then am I going to become irrelevant? You know, am I going to be out of my comfort zone? So that might show up as I'm resisting the change. But actually, it's a fear that I just don't know what I'm supposed to be doing
Daniel Franco:Is it as simple as the analogy where you learn how to crawl before you learn how to walk? Like this, this is as simple as that, like, you just have to give it a go, you have to keep fought, you have to fall over a couple of times. Yeah, yeah, you'll get better and better.
Michelle Holland:Absolutely. And this is I guess, then where so it is as simple as that. And there's the complexity then of the culture. So if you're working with an organization as a culture of blame, if you get something wrong, and you know that you're going to get blamed or unit shamed because of it, then you're more likely to you know, maybe kick up a bit of a stink or, you know, refuse to use it, you know, that sort of thing. Tough. Yeah, that's exactly right. So the next one is about identity. There's a lot of identity that's wrapped up in our roles. So if all of a sudden, I'm going from being this, you know, Knower of all in my position that stands right now, to a new job, which might have most of what I was doing before, but there's these new things that I have to do now, or there are these new people that I have to work with, there's a lot of my identity was wrapped up in this other job, in this other way of working in, you know, the the old, the old ways, it's part of my identity, and letting go of that identity in that and move into something completely new, can be a real challenge for people, particularly if they really loved the old way. You know, there's a number of clients that we've worked with, you know, particularly in that culture space, where there a new, you know, new team of leaders have come in and gone, we're just gonna make this big change, and they've got all sorts of things happening. And there's, you know, new new ways of new processes in place or the bringing in new systems and you know, all this stuff is happening around these people that have been there for years and years and years. And those people are going but we really liked the old way. That was okay for us. We were doing you know, yet we weren't, you know, taking on the world or whatever. But we actually enjoyed it. We enjoyed the people we were working with, there wasn't a huge amount of stress in our job. I really liked that
Daniel Franco:Is it a lack of education, I guess from their part in the sense is like, well, we can't become stagnant either we kind of stick with the same product because you're used to it could because you like it, we actually need to think about moving forward. And is that is that a lot lack of communication about the business strategy as well as like, what the reason why, again, it comes down to communication. The reason why we're introducing is because we actually want to achieve these goals.
Michelle Holland:Yeah, yeah, I think there's, there's a level of mindset in that as well. So, you know, we've talked previously, obviously, about growth mindset and fixed mindset, in a fixed mindset. What we do now is what we do, and why would I change and grow and do something different, because I'm comfortable? You know, there's a lot of comfort in the things that we notice through safety, as exactly right. So if I don't, I don't feel it, you know, I'm not safe to move into something different, then it's, there's fear there, there's a discomfort there, there's, you know, but everything was good before, you know, everything's good now, why would I want to change? If I feel it's good? Why would I want to change? You know, and look, the reality is, there are people that walk through life in a comfort, you know, and they, that's what they want, you know, they want to stay where they are, they don't, you know, one of the big match and they don't want, you know, that that growth, they're just happy doing what they're doing going through their life. And there's lots of people like that, there's nothing wrong with that, there's nothing wrong with that
Daniel Franco:It's when you are holding others back, because of your ways is the issue is,
Michelle Holland:that's exactly right. Because, you know, if you think about in change, the people who are resisting moving to something new, because either, you know, one of these reasons, they become an anchor, for that change, you know, and even if they're just not engaging with the change, they feel like, you know, well, it'll just happen around me, it's fine, they become an anchor, for that change, you know, and you can't move past it. That one there, the identity one is probably the most difficult one to move through. Because it is about their internal workings. And that is something that you almost have to work with them on a one on one basis and help them move through that grief cycle, to enable them to move to something different, and being able to talk with them about what is the same. That's so important, as it's almost more important than what's different. These are all the things that you'll still be doing exactly the same as you were doing before, you can still go out to coffee with you mates, you can still, you know, file your stuff in that particular folder. It's just that folder will now be over here in this system. You know, all the things that are staying the same, it's really helpful for people to think particularly if they're really connected to that old way. And that, that old identity,
Daniel Franco:the identity is really deep one in it, because the moment you walk out of that you walk straight into wisdom, or what's absolutely, you know, yes. You said there's it's layers, these layers are quite deep. Yes, yes, absolutely resistance to change, does that that then requires a real solid skill set of handling changes. And if one of those people are a key influencer within the business, then seems like almost guarantee that change is not going ahead unless it's handled delicately.
Michelle Holland:Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Which brings me to number five which is other people.
Daniel Franco:good segway.
Michelle Holland:It was a good segue, well done. Other people. So you know, when we look at changes that are happening, if we're seeing that other people are moving and changing, and particularly their people that we respect, then we're more likely to move in that direction as well. We might do it slower than then we might do the Ship Shape or shape. Follow, follow the sheep. Yeah, absolutely. It is, you know, we are wired for connection, we are a tribal creature. So if our tribe is moving in a particular direction, then we'll have a tendency to follow that tribe. If our tribe is not moving in that direction, even if you know, this other tribe is moving in that direction, we're more likely to be anchored in that one spot. So whoever I'm, you know, connected with. So this is where in organizations, you'll find that people who resist change, generally, flock together, you know, they'll find ways of criticizing what's going on or saying that leader that leader isn't doing what they need to do, or this process is stupid. And let's all do it the old westerly one liter of that pack, isn't it? Really? Yeah, there can be one or two, usually there's an influencer in that and it's usually the loudest person that that's in the room, you know, making the making the noise. But this is where getting change those change champions as much as it sounds kitsch to, you know, have that change champion. Whatever title you want to give it. It's really important to have that cohort of people who are actually enaged in the change, and can start walking forward towards the change so that the other people can follow behind. That's really, really important. Because the more that people are seeing that the change is marching in that direction, it's only this tipping point, right?
Daniel Franco:It's not being left behind piece again, goes back to that. That's right. I want to be standing out in the cold in the rain by myself, I want to be part of a part of the crew.
Michelle Holland:Absolutely. I mean, there's those old marketing principles, you know, the early adopter, the late adopter, you know, that sort of thing. So change happens in the same way in organizations, and really understanding who your early adopters are in your innovators, then your early adopters, etc. Getting those people on board will eventually the others will come along, you know, and when they don't, then that's a whole other different kind of conversation that you need to have.
Daniel Franco:Yeah, that goes back to culture again.
Michelle Holland:Yes, yes, absolutely. And so trust is the next one. And that really is a big individual and cultural issue is trust. So do I actually trust that the change these leaders are making is going to be in our best interest? Do I actually trust what they're saying? Because, you know, in the past, they haven't told me the full truth. You know, they didn't tell me that there was going to be redundancies, and then all of a sudden there was redundancies. So why would I believe them now?
Daniel Franco:So just on that, because you say, Do I trust that they're making the decision? Which is best for us? What if the decision is best for the customer? Where does where do you draw the line? Like, what where does it all blur there?
Michelle Holland:Yeah, yeah, I think that then goes back to that, why again, as well. And it connects back to that, if we're making changes, because it's going to be best for the customer, then we have to really connect into why we're actually in the business in the first place. If we're in the business to serve the customer, and we're making a change that's best for the customer, then that's the connection to why. But if I've got that disconnect, you know that that disconnect with the the ultimate why, you know, I'm just here to run a process. And that's my job is to run a process. And that's how I've, you know, disconnected from the greater world is because this process is my job, instead of I run this process to serve the customer. That's why I do it. That's where that disconnect can come from. And look, trust goes both ways, as well. So a lot of managers will hold certain information, because they're mistrustful that it's going to be used in the wrong way. So if I tell you too much, right now, are you going to then take me to the, you know, Industrial Commission? Because I've told you a little bit of information. So there's trust that goes both way. And it's based on experience from the past? You know, it might not be that I don't necessarily, it's not that I don't trust you as a person, particularly. But last time I released that kind of information, somebody in my team, two years ago, 10 years ago, doesn't matter, took that information, and created a poor situation that it gives me exactly. So I'm going to hold it back. So trust goes both ways in these situations.
Daniel Franco:But if you withhold information, because you feel that it is not necessary for the other people to know. Is that as a leader, yeah. When I say not necessary, it could create more unrest than than not, is that Yeah. Does that reduce trust by Yeah, uncertainty tainting the best for the people.
Michelle Holland:Yeah, I think you really need to question yourself, if you're holding back information, because you think it's not valuable for the others. The why holding it back then why is that information important? anyway? If it's not important for them, then it's not important. Yeah, you know, or it's a story you're telling yourself that's right. Absolutely. So goes back to that. So trust is a really important thing in this you know, breaking through that is really important. The next one is communication. So we've talked about communication a bit it's critical it's critical and look in a lot of change programs you do see you know, a full on communication plan that's been developed missus when this emails sent and that's when that newsletter is sent. And this is when you know that processes updated, yada, yada, yada. What I'm talking about right now, particularly in the resistance of change is lack of conversation that actually happens around change. Because change happens in the conversation. That's when it actually happens. That's when you can understand that what's in it for me, that's when you can understand that disconnection with the why that's when you can understand if there is affection, you know, brewing in the business, it's going to hold you back from being able to change those conversations and whether they're one on one conversations or their group conversations. The whole point is having a conversation. So conversation is a dialogue that goes backwards and forwards, you know, we get a mistaken with consultation in this space as well. So communication and consultation and conversation even. We unfortunately see them as one way direction. So I've provided you with all of the information, I've given you the change report, I've given you the project plan, I've given you the the one pager on why we're changing. I've given you the step by step. You know, I've given that to you. What I haven't done is have a conversation with you about it. Yeah. Which is so so essential,
Daniel Franco:Does the conversation need to be had with him about what we're doing before it actually happens.
Michelle Holland:Preferably, yeah, I'm a big fan of honesty is always the best policy. And if you The earlier you can get people involved in whatever change is being made, the better. They'll get, they'll want to be involved earlier, now saying that there's different kinds of trust that creates absolutely everything. Yeah, yeah, there's definitely different kinds of people that are, you know, engaged in businesses. So some people, get them right at the beginning and do that kind of big picture and blue sky gazing stuff. And they really get excited about that. There's other people, if you get them involved in that stage, they get a bit uncertain and not quite understand, because I like the light, very clear processes step by step. And if the process and step by step isn't there at that moment, then that might unravel them a little bit. So you're going to be understanding the people that you've got in the room as well. And be very clear about the messaging, the messaging needs to be we're in this together, we are right at the beginning. And we actually need your input. So we can create whatever change it is, the change will be down there. But we need you here to contribute to the direction that we're heading, that needs to be really clear up front. If it's just consultation, and it's that legal version of consultation, then it becomes so meaningless. transactional, it becomes transactional and meaningless. So increase the conversations of change. That's what's really, really important. Fundamental, another aspect is safety. So people are just waiting on number nine, or number eight, Number eight, Number eight is safety. Yes, the number eight is safety. And that covers off a number of different things. So this is where we go back to people feeling vulnerable. So they might be feeling vulnerable in their position, they might think that they're gonna lose their job, which is a really scary place for people to be. Particularly if they've got that real connection with their job, they've got a big mortgage at home, their family members might rely on them, etc, etc. So everybody's in different positions with that Maslow's hierarchy. Yes, it is. Absolutely. So you know, what I might feel as safe, you might not feel as safe, you know. So it's really about, where are we at with that, I might be protecting myself by resisting this change. Because if I put up the blockers and try and stop it, then it might be Give me another six months in this job, where it might allow me to go, I'm going to go and find a job before you have a chance to sack me It make me redundant, because there's always this fear factor, that if there's change happening, particularly if it's a technological change, you know, robots are going to come and steal our jobs kind of deal. So as a technological change, and the word efficiency is thrown around, we want to get more efficient, then people will naturally go to that most fearful place, which is, I'm going to be out in the air again, fear of irrelevance, you know, so if I'm going to be out in the air, I'm not going to be relevant anymore, then what do I do from there? What do I do
Daniel Franco:So lack of self belief, though, as well, you know
Michelle Holland:well, yeah, yeah. I think fundamentally, it's really do I believe that I'm employable beyond where I'm at right now.
Synergy IQ:speaking from personal experience. And there, I'm not the only one that may feel this way. I'm different to a lot of others who don't feel this way. But there was always there was never a fear of losing a job because I feel like I've got some skills that some other people might want in their business that I could add value to, I think, is it a matter of now then becomes about upskilling yourself?
Michelle Holland:I think there's a hugecomponent of that. Yeah, absolutely. Look, if my belief is if you're not constantly investing in your learning, whether it's in your technical expertise, your personal expertise, you know, your personal self development, your leadership, your management, your growth, whatever it might be, expand you're thinking, I don't care what it is that you're investing in, if you're not doing it, you're being left behind. And as soon you're falling behind absolutely in it, that's a real thing you are falling behind. So I worked for an organization a number of years ago, where we had nurses in this organization. And what we were finding is that the nurses that were coming in as new graduates had a higher skill set than the nurses that had been with the organization for 10 years. And this was a real challenge for those nurses that were looking going Holy cow, these new, you know, new whippersnappers are coming in. And they know, stuff that I don't know. Because those that nursing staff that were there for 10 years hadn't kept themselves current in the new things that were coming up. They had experience, they knew, you know, that a lot more experience, obviously, than these new people that were coming through. But the new people coming through had all these new contemporary ways of looking at things, these new contemporary techniques, you know, they did things in a different way. If the nursing staff that had been there, 10 years had kept themselves current, they would be far superior to these graduates, because I have the experience, yet the maturity, and they had the current skills. So if you're not keeping yourself current, you're actually falling behind.
Daniel Franco:I used the example, one of my best mates is a neurosurgeon. He's almost at the point of his career, where he's coming to the end of his studies, and he can go out and his own specialists and all that, but right now, he's still working in the system. And he's been doing it for nine years, still studying. So it's a long journey. And so he's got it was supposed to have us test to become that specialist during an COVID happened. And I remember someone we were having a conversation, and someone asked him, pitchy spewing because you could have almost had, you're a bit you're upset, because you could almost have finished your studies you're learning. And his response was, I'm going to be learning for the rest of my life. For me too, be any use in neurosurgery as a as an example, you want that person to be at the top of the game all the time? Absolutely. And he's aware of that, which is actually quite exciting for Adelaide, because that's what's really where he's going to be base. Yeah, he's going to be one of the top neurosurgeons in Adelaide, but it becomes about, if it's, if that's what the best in the field are doing, then it's the same formula that everyone else should be using.
Michelle Holland:Absolutely, yep, yep, totally, totally. And if you keep yourself current, then if change happens in your organization, it's more in your control. Yeah. So when we talk about that safety, and I'm protecting myself, it's because I feel out of control that somebody else has my destiny in their hands. If you always know that your destiny is in your own hands, then you feel a lot more self assured. and secure. Beautiful. So number nine, number nine. Number nine is about the change process. A lot of times in organizations, people are resisting change, because there's actually no really robust change process that's happening. And they just haven't they don't see themselves in this change picture, where they're feeling, they don't know where they're up to, they don't know what's actually going on. So being able to have a really robust change process that is very evident, and very transparent. That's really important. So getting people involved early on, you know, making sure that that faction in that tribe stuff is actually happening. And we know, you know, people are moving in the direction understanding who the stakeholders are.
Daniel Franco:So this is a change framework,
Michelle Holland:a change framework. Yeah, having a managing that managing the change through a robust change framework, a precise say that increases the successful outcomes of a change process, if you're, you know, managing a robust way by having a sponsor and all the rest of it involved.
Daniel Franco:This is the way we met Yes, for all projects, or for all changes within
Michelle Holland:totally, totally. So they precisely have done some research and have shown that when you do have that process in place, it's a six times better outcome than when you don't six times that 600% better outcome
Daniel Franco:Mexican way you can see it coming, you know, when when it's going to run smoothly, and
Michelle Holland:what's my job in this? What's kind of role in this so, you know, because that change process actually provides you with the skills so if one of the things I'm resisting is because I don't know how to do the change? Well, a good change process actually provides you with the skills. A good change process provides you with the vision. A good change process provides you with that security around what's happening when you remove some of the uncertainty removed some of the lack of awareness around what's actually going on and what's coming next, you know, the communication is generally a lot more robust, because you've built in, there's opportunities to have conversations with people. So all of the things that I've talked about so far in this can actually be supported, not necessarily fixed completely, but supported, definitely through a really good change process.
Daniel Franco:It's a lot to take in the change processes in it. And you've even got to number 10. Yet, but I'm just saying, from a framework perspective, you think about you talk about the project manager can do it all. It seems a lot for one person to manage, you know, especially if it's a yes, million dollar change.
Michelle Holland:Absolutely. Look, I, I believe that a project manager can do it all, as long as they're delegating the task element on it. So I'll just rephrase that is when I say the project manager can absolutely manage the people side of the change, I mean, manage it, I'll do it. But manage it, a good project manager will delegate the tasks that need to occur. So like they're going to delegate the integration of that new system with the old system, or the other system that needs to be integrated. The same, they will delegate the conversations of change that need to happen to either leadership Change Manager to the leadership team, to the to the managers that are in place, the team leaders, etc. So they can do it, but they'll need to delegate the tasks. Yeah. Because otherwise, it's a big job.
Daniel Franco:They need to be on board with it, too. Is that more so that we've been talking more about a program sponsor or something like that? Are we talking about?
Michelle Holland:Yeah, so project sponsor is a different role. The project manager manages the project overall, and all the milestones and tasks. I don't see the change task is any different than the technical tasks, the same things are just they help the project get over the line, the change is part of this part of that. Yeah. So you know, if you have a project that you're doing, you're not thinking about these change things, then it's not going to be successful at the end, you know, or it might go in like, right, yep, I've done the CRM, it's there, it's ready to use and nobody uses it's not as successful. I mean, how many times have we been asked to come in, right at the end of a project or redo a project, because guess what, nobody used that old system. I don't understand why it was because you just implemented it and didn't have any change.
Daniel Franco:It's interesting, because it we will get where I'd say nine times out of 10, we're brought in after the fact, projects began. And then it's a decision that's made, and we're gonna make this change. Company, you need to understand this is the change we're making. You have no choice. This is the change we're making. And so we're they're left picking up the pieces and trying to remold it and reshape it and get people back onto the bus and make sure that they've got this purpose and reason why and understanding. But then in the meantime, finance hasn't been hasn't been talked to about how does this work within their budgets? Yes. The key stakeholders over here, you know, using a CRM data that we're implementing that hasn't even been discussed. It's that when the key stakeholders haven't been engaged, because the project needs to put in a new CRM, yeah, absolutely, absolutely want to do that? Totally. But it's everything else that goes around exactly right.
Michelle Holland:Whether the CRM will actually realize the benefits that you think it's going to provide to the business as a completely different thing. Yeah. So that's where a good change, you know, process
Daniel Franco:What's Why? Because it takes a good solid project manager and change person. Oh, yeah. port that project manager?
Michelle Holland:Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I would say ideally, you would have a really strong project sponsor. And the project sponsors role is to essentially move the barriers out of the way and more strategic level. Yep, you know, and be that champion. Yeah, open the gate and be that real visionary champion, you know, be talking about and get the executive members on board, you know, really driving in and champion the change the project managers, role of Senior Project Manager, a program manager, whatever the title, whatever the title is, is to manage all of the moving parts. One of those moving parts is the people side of change. So they need to manage that. And bringing in Change Manager is one way of being able to do that, you know, but making sure whether they're the Change Manager or what, making sure you've got somebody that actually has that expertise and understands behavior change, understands people, understands the impact of change on people, understands how the culture and groups interact with the change. that's essential. That capability as well as all the technical knowledge that goes absolutely like, it's a big job, this is why these people get paid. Yes, absolutely. That's right. So the last one is really around a reality check. Sometimes the change that's actually happening is a really bad change. It's no good. And people resist changes that aren't logical, that aren't any good when they look at a change and go, I don't understand why you're doing that that's actually messing up something over here.
Daniel Franco:Of course, they're gonna watch the public transport system that the government was thinking about implementing and then reneged. Yeah, after everyone Hang on, that's not gonna work. Yeah, absolutely.
Michelle Holland:And look, you know, when that happens is usually because someone, you know, maybe sitting up, the top of the organization is gone. Let's do this, this would be really good, because they've seen it somewhere else. So they've heard a whisper that, you know, something's not working. And they've had this broad idea, which is great. But they haven't actually consulted or talked with the people on the ground. So it's like, Yeah, let's do this. And it's never ever going to going to work for the people on the ground. So the people on the ground, they're going, Well, that's great. You're going to give us more mobile technology. But I'm actually working in a space that's got no Wi Fi ability whatsoever. So the mobile technology becomes this heavy lump of, you know, technology that I can't do anything with anyway. So great idea, but I'm not going to use it because it's just a bit of crap to have in my car. Yeah.
Daniel Franco:So what is the Great Lawn seat then? Because the gray area, I should say, because there's sorry, it was the line between black and white is because you can, we're talking about, we need to get people involved as early as possible, if we get too many people involved, and all of a sudden, no projects are ever going to go. Absolutely. So where what do we do? How do we handle that situation?
Michelle Holland:Yeah, well, I think this is where critical thinking and strategic thinking comes into play as well. So if you're going to get people involved as early as possible, they have to be able to contribute to the outcome at the end. So you don't just consult for the sake of consulting, you don't make decisions by committee. There's none of that stuff,
Daniel Franco:If you got 2000 people in your business, it's not getting all 2000 people over there. So it's getting the key step salutely.
Michelle Holland:Absolutely! It's the key stakeholders and getting representation of those key stakeholders. So you know, you don't have to have 2000 voices, if 1000 of those voices are in a similar kind of role, you know, you really only need two or three of those voices, then just to make sure that you've covered the different elements, you know, that's where true consultation comes into it. And as a project manager, you don't have to do at all, as a change manager, you don't have to do it all. This is where the capability build for the leaders in the business is so essential when you're running through change. If you are implementing an organizational shift of whatever that might be, and you haven't skilled your leaders, to enable that change to actually occur and empower their people to adopt the change, even skilled your leaders to do that, then you set yourself up for failure as well. Because it's a skill set in leading change.
Daniel Franco:So we're going through those 10. When we are embarking on change, as a business leaders deciding Okay, this is the change direction where we're going to take Yeah, what are some? What are some checkpoints? Where do we start?
Michelle Holland:Yeah, so start with the vision, why are we actually doing this? and be really, really clear about that. So, visioning takes the form of you know, what's the end game here? What What is it going to look like at the end? And then what are the key objectives that sit underneath that? So it might be, you know, the dream is to have this collaborative, customer focused organization, like that's the dream, let's say, what are the key objectives that we need to get to, to get to that? Alright, so if it's collaborative, world class, customer focused, whatever, okay, so we need to have the technology that's going to support us in that. So one of the key objectives is to review and, you know, change our technology if it needs to be changed. One of the key objectives might be, we actually need people who are skilled and capable in that. So one of the key objectives is having skilled and capable workforce, and then under that, that's when the action plans come out of it, but being able to have that high vision, and then those key objectives underneath that actually gives people the, the roadmap, yeah, I've changed. I don't need to know every single line on the project plan. If you've told me that the objective is to have a clear, a, you know, capable workforce to deliver customer centric outcomes, then at least I know that if I'm not feeling like I'm, I've got the the skills and capabilities. Fear number three, I don't have the skills and capabilities. I know that it's one of the objectives of the change is to actually give me the capability?
Daniel Franco:And yeah, I guess is part of that first, we're going to give this is our vision. Yeah, this is where we want to go. And these are objectives. Yep. Then do we also include a package that says, What's in it for you, as the employer? And what's in it for our customer? Is that should that be included in that?
Michelle Holland:Yeah, yes. Is that later on? Now, it can be later on, I mean, where you start is in those clear objectives. And then you know, you go down to the what's the actions that are necessary to get to those objectives, one of those actions is going to be understanding the what's in it for me, for people, one of those actions is going to be having a consistent conversation about this change that's actually happening. One of the actions might be understanding the skills and capabilities matrix across the the organization, one of the things might be is going, what we call heat map, is how many people are involved in all these other projects? And is there a team that we have to be really careful of, because right now, they're actually engaging in 15 changes right now, you know, whereas this other team over here is might be only engaging in one change at the moment? So are we going to, you know, there's the heat is on for that team over there that might be the finance team? How do we support them? If they have to be integral to this new change that's coming? Do we need to bring in a temporary resource to help them get through this other aspect? Or can we leave the finance team until six months down the track, when we know that three of those projects are going to be finalized? So then they'll have the capacity to take on something new, you know, so it's, there's a, there's a critical aspect and critical thinking aspect into the, if I'm making a change, I got to know who's going to be involved in it, how they're going to be involved in it? Can they be involved in it? Do they have the capability and the capacity to be involved in it? And if they're not involved in it, what's the what's the detrimental impact of that on the change? So there's a number of different things that you go through. I mean, if you, you know, talk about that change management processes, there's all sorts of things, you know, you do stakeholder mapping, and you know, who's who's who, in the zoo and all the rest of it, what's the impact on them, and yada, yada, yada, you know, communications plan, who's going to get the communication when he's going to deliver it? Who's gonna be the sponsor? You know, all of those things. So there's, there's a lot, there's a big kitbag. Yeah. Yeah, we're sorry. I was just gonna say that, really, the critical element is understanding humans, human beings, humans are in this.
Daniel Franco:So is, when you are embarking on change, you've mentioned pro side before is a process is a framework. It's not the only one. Is it?
Michelle Holland:I mean, no, it's a pro site is actually a research company. So I generally go to them for research. So it's, it's actually stands for professional science. It's precise, and precise, I do have a change framework that they they endorse, and they implement, which is called add car. Yeah. So add cars is one change framework, but john Kotter is another change frameworks. And gay is another change framework, Daniel Pink has a change framework, you know, so there's a multitude of different change, really what's best for your company. And I think, you know, the, for me, the best is taking all of the different models and actually extracting the parts that actually work for you. I think if you get lost in a model, then it becomes a technical job instead of a people centric job.
Daniel Franco:you see so many people that just OPT Well, if I'm purse, I go to a pro cycles, then all of a sudden, I'm a change manager. So that's very interesting. concept.
Michelle Holland:Yeah, absolutely. And there's a difference in leading change as compared to managing the change process. So you know, the difference between a change analyst and a change manager, it's a difference between a leader and a manager, and sponsor, and a project manager, then the change professional, whoever that is, whether they're called Change Manager, change analyst, whatever. They are the person that generally implements the tactical part of the change process. But there are people that are sitting, you know, in different roles across the business that are actually leading the change. So if the new CRM is introduced, and I'm the team leader of the sales team, then me as the team leader of the sales team has a huge job in leading the change in the implementation of that CRM. Yeah, that's not the project manager's job. That's not the Change Manager job. That's my job as the leader,
Daniel Franco:Synergy, IQ, help advise businesses through their change programs. What does that look like?
Michelle Holland:So it can look like a number of different things. It's either we come in and help people in advisory capacity so we can increase the capability within the business. We work with organizations and what we kind of call the you know, your startup phase. We can help design the the change frameworks for people if they need that all the way to we can be there as the Change Manager that's actually doing the tactical and technical part of the change. So we're supporting the project managers, I'm going to do project management as well. So yeah, we can do the whole kit and caboodle if need be. So we can come in as, you know, senior advisors and make sure that we're, you know, we're setting the process up correctly, so you can get a better outcome. We can provide the frameworks we can provide the people to enable the actual change to happen. So there's all those different elements that that we work in, from advice to doing the do.
Daniel Franco:Yeah. So we can Yeah, advise or do it for you.
Michelle Holland:Yeah, really? Yes, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. We'll teach you how we do it for you.
Daniel Franco:So the key takeaways, I guess, from resistance to change, and managing that is set the vision and objectives early, I think there's probably the most critical thing.
Michelle Holland:Absolutely. That's exactly right. And be able to communicate them as often and as early as you absolutely can get people involved as early and as often as you can, and follow along at a nice, you know, robust change process. And honestly, you can do that by googling john Kotter.
Daniel Franco:Yeah, if you got any advice for people who want to get into the world of change?
Michelle Holland:Probably I got advice for everybody. Yeah, opinions on everything and advice, because
Daniel Franco:there's a lot of people that come to me, he's like, Dad, I'm really interested in, in getting into the world of change. value, the human element of business. Something is, where are we? What are we concerned? Start, I guess, going down there change journey?
Michelle Holland:Yeah, yeah. So I mean, there's, there's different ways I guess they can start. I mean, there's a lot of courses and programs that people can do to at least get the jargon and the language, right. really engaging in changes about engaging in change. So get on to whatever Change program, you can absolutely get on to. So if you are within a business, and you're wanting to move into that change, you know, space, volunteer for the next project that's happening, get on the project team, where there's, you know, the enterprise agreements being negotiated and just about to be implemented, get on the team, you know, get on to as many things as you can, that are looking broadly at the organization as a whole, you know, become the, the, the EEO champion, you know, equal opportunity champion, as well, because that's a whole change process in itself. Talk with the people in your business that engage in change, you know, go into the HR department and go, Hey, you know, when you're doing a restructure, what do you what do you think about when you're doing that, you know, if it's, if it's that kind of change, go into your IT department and go, Hey, when you're implementing new systems, what are the things you think about? So really just start getting information knowledge, I learned, I learned,
Daniel Franco:the critical thing is you said, volunteer, work to say, you know, I want to, I guess some of the advice that I give to people is, if you are going to volunteer your time, you have to understand that that is over and above the work you Oh, yes. The job that you get paid for still needs to be done. Yes, you actually need to put in extra effort. And you will be rewarded for the extra effort that you put in. Yeah, more so than anything else, because people will see that you came that you're interested that you're willing, you're able, yes. And that's how you you then put your foot in front of experts totally, totally.
Michelle Holland:If you're waiting to become a change manager by getting the job of the Change Manager or the salary of one, then you're never going to become one.
Daniel Franco:Absolutely. Absolutely. That's just the way it is beautiful. I think that's all for the resistance of change. Thank you very much. That's very, really insightful. Those 10 points in the low hanging fruit of just, you know, sorting out your vision mission of why you're actually going through change and sitting in those clear objectives
Michelle Holland:That's right, and be human centric. Yeah. Think about the people within the change and the journey that they're there. They're all absolutely critical.
Daniel Franco:Thank you very much for show. Thank you, Dan. Take care. Bye, bye.
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