Creating Synergy Podcast

#08 - Ally Nitschke on Courageous Conversations in the Workplace - Creating a Culture of Feedback and Empathy

July 07, 2020 SynergyIQ
Creating Synergy Podcast
#08 - Ally Nitschke on Courageous Conversations in the Workplace - Creating a Culture of Feedback and Empathy
Show Notes Transcript

While most people instinctively avoid confrontation, leadership coach, facilitator and speaker Ally Nitschke knows confrontation and Courageous Conversations are central to getting results.

In this episode, Ally brings her expertise through tough conversations to the forefront and creating a culture of feedback which significantly reduces performance issues. Ally shares her mission to change the way we perceive 'tough conversations in the workplace' and to inspire, empower and motivate leaders to lead with Empathy and throw out the rule book!

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Where to find Ally Nitschke:

LinkedIn Profile
Email: ally@madeformore.com.au
Website: madeformore.com.au

Synergy IQ:

Welcome to creating synergy where we explore what it takes to transform. Whether you are transforming yourself, your team, your business, or your community will connect you with insightful and challenging leaders who share their stories of successful transformations. To give you practical ideas for your own journey. Join us for another insightful episode of creating synergy.

Daniel Franco:

So welcome to creating synergy. today. We've got heavy Nitschke. Welcome, Ally. Thank you. So Ally, just a bit of background about Ally. She is a leadership coach and educator facilitator, and a speaker and she has many, many years in change management and leadership. So while most people instinctively avoid confrontation, Ally jumps right into it, and she believes that confrontation and courageous conversations are essential to getting results. She's worked with some of essays, iconic organizations, and she knows what it's like to lead teams of over 120 people. She brings her expertise through tough conversations. And she brings it right to the forefront and creating a culture of feedback, which is really important. Ally teaches people how to have courageous conversations and works with organizations to create courageous leaders, and you're on a mission Ally out here, you're on a mission to change the way we perceive tough conversations. So can you go into a little bit more about that?

Ally Nitschke:

Yeah, sure. Thanks, Dan. Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be here. And I am on a bit of a mission to change the way that we talk at work. So as you mentioned, courageous conversations are totally my jam. I think we don't have enough of them. I don't think we are good enough at them. And I think if we can start mastering and cultivating the art of courageous conversations, and we can make some really impactful changes in the workplace, in our own lives, to the way that we interact with our teams, and the way that the team performs. So yes, I'm absolutely on a mission to get courageous conversations out there and mainstream.

Daniel Franco:

So what's your actual definition of a courageous conversation?

Ally Nitschke:

Yeah, really good question. So most people think that a courageous conversation is a courageous is a conversation that comes about from performance management. And that's certainly one part of it. But there's also the other side of a courageous conversation, which is perhaps a little bit less knowing. And that's around, actually leaning into that discomfort. So a courageous conversation could be asking for a promotion, a courageous conversation could be standing up, when you see something in the workplace that you don't agree with. It's any of those conversations where you feel a little bit icky. On the inside, it makes you feel a little bit nervous. It's not just a natural conversation. It's something where you actually have to take, take a bit of a plan in place and talk about it.

Daniel Franco:

Yeah. I like the bit about walking past and actually standing up. But there's a quote, boy was a general in the army. And he said that the standard that you walk past is the standard, you you accept an organ. That's one that stuck with me for so long.

Ally Nitschke:

Yeah, I think that's a really great way. And it is by General around the standard the walk past, and I think it's so true in the workplace. And it's often disguised as the statement, or we've always done it that way, or the way that we do things here. And it doesn't necessarily have to be around a process. But it could actually be a bit of a culture thing, as well. And courageous conversations really digs into Yeah, perhaps you have always done it that way. But we're not that way anymore, or we need to move and evolve. And courageous conversations address a lot of those issues.

Daniel Franco:

So why are they so difficult, though, like, you're on a mission to change people, and the way they think, and the way they perceive conversations, and I know you you delve a lot into pronase work. And I dove into Kim Scott's work in radical candor. And there's some really good tools out there to build yourself and create courageous conversation will become better, crucial and courageous conversations. But it's one of those things that I don't know, you have to keep on trying and trying and trying again, to get better at it. Is that right? Or is it that's the beauty it always comes, you come the time that you actually have to have one you must start backing away.

Ally Nitschke:

Yeah. So what I think it actually comes down to or what I teach that it comes down to, is that people we go into this fight flight or freeze mode. So we feel something that's a little bit uncomfortable, a courageous conversation and we get scared or, you know, go into fight or flight triggers from our amygdala. And we get a bit of dum dum brain, which means we can't think about what it is that we need to be talking about, which then only feeds and fuels the fight flight or freeze response. And what I like to do is actually break that down. So before we've even had any conversation, we've got this story or the head junk that we keep telling ourselves. So the stories that we tell ourselves mbna talks about this a lot. There's also a nutritionist here in Australia, Dr. Libby, she talks a lot about this around the stories that we tell ourselves and when it comes to a courageous conversation, what happens is we start telling ourselves a story about a scenario that we've conjured up in our head. And then we respond based on the imaginative story that we've made. So say you and I were having a having to have a tough conversation. In my mind, I've already played out the scenario. And I've also conjured up your response. And whether it's, you know, most people are scared of someone crying. Hopefully you don't cry me. But if you do, you know, I've already responded and reacted based on what I think is gonna happen in the situation, which then makes me scared to have the conversation, because I don't want to go through that story, even though it's all fictional. So getting on top of your own head junk and getting really clear on what is fact. And what is stories is the first step to unpacking a courageous conversation and being able to be more effective, or having them to recognizing the stories horror,

Daniel Franco:

that's a whole nother podcast. Because first and foremost, you need to understand the triggers that send you into that spiral. I guess, when you're start thinking about all the different scenarios, how do you stop yourself from getting to that point?

Ally Nitschke:

Well, I think the first thing is to actually recognize it. So one of my favorite questions to ask, and one of the questions that I talk about with my clients is, you know, the truth back yourself. So is that true? Ask yourself question when you're about to have a conversation with someone or you can hear your internal monologue being like, oh, they're just such and such and such, they're lazy, they're not trying their best effort, and then go, well, is that true? Which then pauses all of that thought pattern that is getting out of control? And then you can also start looking for Okay, evidence? Is it true? Well, I haven't actually seen it. And do they do it every time? I know, there's been times where they haven't done that. And they always like this. No, they're not always like that. So is that true? Is good self coaching question or getting yourself on the right track?

Daniel Franco:

So how much do you boy was that aligned with? The question that Brene , I asked everyone is, do you believe that this person is giving you the best?

Ally Nitschke:

The best effort? Is it aligned with it? I think it's a little bit different. So that line is around what you believe to be someone else's behaviors or attitude or whatever happens to be

Daniel Franco:

the story that you're telling yourself, though? around? Yeah, behaviors? Yeah. And the way they would act in the way that they would perceive the way what you're going to say?

Ally Nitschke:

Yeah, so a lot of it is the stories that you're telling yourself about the situation. So it could be they always try to make me feel bad. Well, is that true? Do you always feel bad? Or are you always feeling put down? Or are they always running late? You know, that type of thing. So that, is it true? The stuff that you're telling yourself?

Daniel Franco:

Is that true?

Ally Nitschke:

Yeah, is it true? And it's so good. And I use it all the time. Even, you know, just in everyday life, but you know, you start to wonder your mind starts to wander and then you go hang on a minute, is that true? And you start looking for better answers to your question.

Daniel Franco:

With all the people that you work with, in helping them have converse with the leaders that you work with in helping them have courageous conversation with their people? Does anyone ever come to you? I'm really curious about this. Has anyone ever come to you and say, I need help? Having a courageous positive conversation? Like I need? I don't know how to provide good feedback. Yeah. Is that something that you get asked about? Because the negative stuff, you know, we kind of we all need some help with that. But the positive stuff, I think, is if not more powerful?

Ally Nitschke:

Yeah, sure. So certainly, not so much around how do I do as a courageous conversation that the positive courageous conversation stuff is how do I ask for promotion? Or how do I demonstrate that I've, I've got these skills? And how do I talk to my boss about that are the next steps, but certainly around giving feedback and giving effective feedback, you know, it's really easy to be like, Oh, good job, or we did really well. Well done team, which is lovely. Like, it's really nice to acknowledge, you know, people that have done good work. And it's really nice to acknowledge teams that are performing well. But unless you can be specific around what it is, and that's where I do a lot of the work with my clients is getting specific around what it is because there's no good me saying are really well done. It really well done. What like really well done sitting there really well done in the Tea Room earlier today, really well done last week, but being able to specify all the piece of work that you put together for the marketing team for the board meeting. I love the way that you articulated these five paragraphs and that was really punchy, can we do more of that? And then immediately you're like, Ah, okay, this is specifically what was really good. I can just reproduce that as opposed to abroad. really well done that you're like, clarity is key here. Clarity is key for being

Daniel Franco:

courageous conversation. I can't I'll keep coming back to this because it's ridiculously hard. No matter how many times you've had to have conversations and I get that it's a muscle right? You build the strength and you become better ahead. Oh, Pete, what what are some of the pitfalls that you see a lot happen a lot with some of the people you work with where some of their stumbling blocks when approaching usage based conversation.

Ally Nitschke:

Yeah, I think the first one is the biggest stumbling block and you would come across this as well as ngi Two is that people go performance management, I'm going to call HR rather than taking any sort of responsibility for themselves. So I think the first thing is you actually have to recognize it as leaders out of your job. courageous conversations is 100%, your duty or your duty of care for your people. And then the next one's definitely the stories that you keep telling yourself, you know, get get a handle on those. And then the third thing is actually have to lean into it. So courageous conversations, yes, they are 100% feel uncomfortable, that's kind of the point. But recognizing that that's why you're feeling uncomfortable, and then being able to unpack the stories and take responsibility for yourself. You need to have courageous conversations, if you want any kind of progress with your team, the more courageous that you are, and the more frequently that you're having these conversations, a few things, you can solve a lot of your problems. So you might be having performance management issues, but the person that you're having performance management issues with your staff member, they might not have the self awareness to know that that's what it is. So they could be completely naive to it. Or you haven't been clear enough in explaining what the expectations are. So using courageous conversations that way to get clear on where you stand, you know, drawing a line in the sand. And it also gives you a lot more headspace as well, instead of, you know, doing this half performance management and just the, they should know that it's their job, or they should know better, how bad if they don't actually know better, like, perhaps they are Bernie Brown, giving it their very best effort, and they just don't know any better. So you're wasting a lot of time and a lot of energy, trying to manage someone, but you haven't actually had a conversation with them about what it is. And most people want to do the right thing

Daniel Franco:

they do. So much of stopping people from having courageous conversations is based on their thoughts on how that person would react 98% would be quite high. I mean, even you see it in children, I guess they they come out and say it. And my daughter says it's quite a bit as I don't want to say anything for that person. Because I don't, they might get angry at me. So I guess the question to this is, How much? Is it a skill? How much of a skill? Is it for the person receiving feedback as opposed to the person giving feedback?

Ally Nitschke:

Yeah, when you're on the receiving end of courageous conversations, it's interesting that you say that. So I do some work with teams. And I'm a big, big fan of prevention, rather than the cure for courageous conversations. So I think one of the best ways that we can prevent teams from spiraling down that sort of toxic workplace is by having regular feedback, and I'm talking feedback sort of as close to the incident as possible, before it gets to an escalated situation, have courageous conversations. And I think what people on the receiving end need to be open to and this will only work if you've built the trust. I know Brenda has got a beautiful piece of work around the braving infantry. So you know, coming up with the boundaries and going through that whole process with your team to build the culture within the team first,

Daniel Franco:

sorry, just touch on the boundaries, PCB,

Ally Nitschke:

the boundaries. So Bernie Brown has got a an activity that you do, it's in her data lead book, and it's called the braving inventory. Yeah, and one of my most favorite parts, and I think this is where a lot of courageous conversation issues come from, is where she talks about boundaries. So quite often, and this is probably more personal life, then work life is we'll get upset by something that someone says or does to us. And it happens, you know, happens all the time you walk away from the situation, and 20 meters away, you're like, Oh, I could have, I could have said this. And I've got these five really great comebacks. And what about this, this point and this point, but you didn't ever say it because you weren't thinking of it at the time. But the reason we don't recognize it at the time and have the ability to have those conversations is we haven't realized that that person has crossed the boundary of us. All off pretty is pretty powerful stuff. So when you actually start recognizing what your own personal boundaries are, and it could be as simple as another Brittany thing love her work? Is that's not okay with me, or that's not okay. Then you can sort of start recognizing what it is that triggers your own response due to when people cross your boundaries. Yes, yeah. So it's awesome. Yeah, it's good.

Daniel Franco:

It's good. You mentioned this is not, this is more for home life. Alright, I'm going to use me as an example. I don't get vulnerable here is according to benign, but if I'm in a job in a work environment, I should say if I'm in my work environment, and I required to have a courageous conversation with someone, I find the ability to step up and keep my emotions in check. quite good. I can do that. But at home, it's a completely different Why's that? Why is there such a difference between at home and in the work environment?

Ally Nitschke:

Yeah, really good question. So this is why I don't do courageous conversations at home, not a psychologist start with but there's so much extra emotion, baggage, etc, etc. So in work, we maintain this slight level of professionalism we build relationship based on what we want to share, you know, it's like the highlight reel of your career, the highlight reel, if your Instagram people at work really only know what you've taught them or what they've learned in person, so you can be really vulnerable and be open to those kinds of things. Or many people sort of keep their hat on, but their professional face on during during workout. So at work, you're kind of this certain persona, and you've got relationships built at a particular level, based on both having like a tiny little looking glasses on a person that you really are, yeah, at home, all the gloves are off. So you do get to have, you know, you've got the vulnerability, there's the safety net, you know, I don't know if you get your kids or your wife, but you kind of in it, you know, are usually much more emotional along.

Daniel Franco:

I think I think you're right, there is an element of investment there. But I do run my own business. So I'm fully invested into that, too. I it's just the contrast in emotion. Yeah, is huge. It's huge. Because one in one environment, I'm calm collected, and the other environment, I could shoot off, off on those on a tangent. And I don't know why that is. Sometimes I sit back and relaxing, sit back and think I should say, and go what why? Where did that come from? Why did I do that? And I believe I'm the only one Oh, gosh,

Ally Nitschke:

gosh, no matter now having a discussion the other day. And it was getting pretty heated. And he just goes don't courageous conversations. Well, yeah, it's kind of what we're doing. We're having a courageous conversation. So why are the stakes higher at home? I think it's because you've got more invested. But you've also got less to hide, so you can show the vulnerability. You've got kids as well. You know, your kids hold it together all day at school. Yeah. And I get home and my kids are the same. They fold pieces. Sometimes they're a slinky, they can't sit up on their chair, it's because you that you're in a safe space, and you are at your most vulnerable.

Daniel Franco:

It's unconditional love peace, too. I think there's an element of you always know that these people well, you hope that these people will always be there.

Ally Nitschke:

Yeah, yeah. And I think as long as you can learn from something, and this is another piece, so we the courageous conversation, you want to have a resolution or a solution, like there needs to be an end point or a finish line or some kind of direction. I think at home, because we're so reactive, rather than proactive. You don't go into a discussion in your home life with plan. Usually, you just kind of ad lib. But you need to kind of get Yeah,

Daniel Franco:

that's easy. Well,

Ally Nitschke:

there are a lot of people that do better the ones that have the communication problems, because they're never really having real conversations. It's all it's all structures. Yeah,

Daniel Franco:

yeah, we get into the deep end, though. Yeah. So you mentioned before about you put your workplace on you, it's almost surface level, does that go against the grain of building trusting relationships within the workplace? So you would think that if you want to build trusting relationships, you need to go deep? You need to go to the top of that pyramid sort of thing?

Ally Nitschke:

Yeah, I think it's a few different things. So I think, you know, we're also at the end of the day, and this is my own personal opinion on this, you know, we're all there to be paid to, for what we do, we go to work, and we get paid, and we're, you know, rewarded every fortnight or every month, depending on what the cycle is. So we are actually there to perform at a certain level in a certain way. And we are many leaders are actually responsible for a lot of people and that, you know, there might have budgets that they're responsible for as well, and pieces of work that they're responsible for. So there is a different level of responsibility. And I think, yes, we do need to build those lasting relationships. And we can do that in different ways as opposed to oversharing. And there's this. I think it's a bit of an untruth around authenticity, like, you know, hashtag authentic does not actually mean sharing everything. You know, your co workers are your co workers, your team is your team. They're not your best friends. Yeah, sometimes they are. I mean, I ended up marrying my, one of my co workers. Yeah, many years ago. So, you know, he turned out to be right, yeah. But I think one of those things is that you're not going to get on with everyone. And you don't actually need to show every single facet of your personality in every single facet of your life, to still be able to show up with vulnerability and shell with authenticity for your team. It's around acting within your own integrity and being able to connect at that level. That is genuine.

Daniel Franco:

Yeah, I agree. The there's some really fantastic leaders out in the world. There are some really, less effective leaders in the world. We often hear more about the less effective leaders, we hear more about what they're not doing. How does someone who answers to a leader? Yeah, have those courageous conversations. We do a lot of work with leaders and having, you know, sort of downward facing conversations. But how does someone who is working under a less effective leader Yeah, turn to that person who may have an ego or probably does have And then on top of ego, how do they approach that conversation saying, I'm really not being treated the way I should be treated? or whatever it might be? Yeah,

Ally Nitschke:

we approached the old managing up situation. And I think this is a, this is a really great question. And something that definitely needs to happen more of, but a lot of it comes down to the individual scenario. So some leaders have very, they do need to a lot of leadership work. And depending on the vulnerability and the type of situations that you're in, in the workplace, it's always important to be safe, and make sure that you're going in there with a resolution solution or kind of end game. So if you are reporting to a leader who maybe perhaps needs some work, you need to show up as a leader yourself. And I don't mean leader by position. I mean, like leadership is in your mindset, you know, how are you actually going to perform? Are you taking 100% responsibility for your role in a situation

Daniel Franco:

in which you need to? Definitely,

Ally Nitschke:

it's not like, you, you, you, it's, hey, I've noticed this? How about we try that. And it depending on the type of relationship you have, if it's already a bit icy, you're gonna want to try some pre framing. So hey, look, you know, I really want to talk to you about the way that we're communicating together, can we do this and it's not going to be a single conversation that happens. Just in isolation. It'll be it'll be have to be built over time that trust built over time.

Daniel Franco:

That's a good point. I think. Most people think of think of courageous conversations as right, I'm going to plan a situation, I'm going to plan a conversation, I'm going to give this person a performance review, whatever it is, I'm going to have this conversation with them. My thoughts is that these type of conversations should just happen every day. They Yeah, you should be open to Yep, providing feedback at the click of a finger really, or even just general chat.

Ally Nitschke:

Well, that's a lot of the Kim Scott work with the radical candor is like open honest, and Frank communication should happen all the time. And if we have a relationship where you've built that with your team, and you can give and receive feedback, that's both positive and negative, or criticism that's actually going to help you develop and evolve in some way, then that's really good. That's the open honest and frank and then courageous conversations shouldn't really be happening, or if they are happening, then they shouldn't be a surprise. But what often happens is we get this into this cycle where we don't want to make anyone upset as in we don't want to make them cry. So we don't have a conversation until the performance has gone so far down the gurgler. Yeah, they're like, Okay, well, we're gonna bring them in and this is going to be performance management. And off we go. We sit down in an office with someone, and they're like, Oh, you've never told me that that was actually a problem. And then that's when the waterworks happen, because it's, you know, it's literally a surprise attack on someone.

Daniel Franco:

Yes. I worked in a work somewhere before I won't say where, where someone who was working underneath, underneath me, I guess, it was part of my team I was supervising came to me, and he says, Look, I've got a problem with such and such. Do you mind speaking to them? about this? Because they're making me feel, however? Yeah. And my response was, I can't have that conversation. However, you will get more out of this conversation if you have it. Yeah. Let's plan on on how you would go about it. I guess my question from here is, why do people avoid the situation all the time? Why don't I avoid having that conversation and want to deflect that onto someone else to have a conversation o

Ally Nitschke:

it's the e key. So it comes back to the story that we're telling ourselves, I don't want to do it because they're gonna cry. Or more often than not, they know that there's something they could have done, that they've been responsible in some way in the lead up to work and not taking responsibility for themselves, as well. So if you've got someone that's asking you to have a conversation with someone else to smooth it over, perhaps if it's totally out of line for them to do it. But more often than not, it's because they're just passing the buck, which is why HR usually get the call up from someone and they're like, Can you just do that management bit for us here? And

Daniel Franco:

so where's the fine line, though? So where's the line that that is drawn between whether a leader should have that conversation with another staff? So say it's between two staff members that are having some issues? Yeah, within a team. So there's a leader of a team and he's got two people underneath. He or she have two people working within their team. Yeah. And those two people have.

Ally Nitschke:

Yeah, do you know it's interesting so years ago, that 10 years ago, I this is just after the GFC when I was working in finance, I was promoted. That's what happens when your team performs really well. You get promoted. Yeah, thanks, team. Well, you've

Daniel Franco:

got to be have to work.

Ally Nitschke:

Well, I mean, that they can have the limelight for that one. But I walked into an office and it was like 14 women and they were super, it was like a toxic environment. It is what you say. And I was calling to fix it. And they were like, not happy with me not happy with each other hated their old boss. And you know, I was in my mid 20s, and my pony child and I was ready to conquer the world. And they weren't happy to see me at all. And just for the regular, she doesn't have a ponytail. Come out, you know. And what was happening was there was a lot of infighting within that period of here. And I came in to, you know, fix this situation. And I had no idea what I was doing. I was like, well, maybe just don't be rude to each other. That's the starting point. But there was a lot of baggage that, you know, leftover baggage that happened and the previous manager hadn't done anything about it. So there's a lot of culture issues, which you know, you're you guys are all across. So yeah, while I did try and get them to talk to each other ended it there was one incident that ended up in like a hair pulling, slapping type thing I wish I was, but I am not. And yeah, I did as the leader, and as the manager of that team, I had to intervene for, like, you know, you need to come in here. And this is how it's going to be moving forward. And did have to be quite direct in my communication with that, because things had got completely out of control. And the infighting was impacting the entire team. So where's the fine line?

Daniel Franco:

I think, with AIG budgets that

Ally Nitschke:

Well, I think the fine line is how disruptive is it to the rest of the team? How disruptive is it to Work program or whatever work? It is that you have to be doing, that you're meant to be doing and delivering? And then you know, how much of an influence can you actually have? So are people Are they aware of it? Is it causing a bit of like the group thing called the gossip down the hallway? Yeah, absolutely. You need to intervene, start with them trying to sort it out themselves. And perhaps you need to be the mediator or you know, the referee, depending on how toxic it's got. But yeah, our role as leaders is definitely to make sure that our team is working with, you know, synergy and making sure that they're performing to the best they can.

Daniel Franco:

Yeah, we, Michelle and I actually worked with a client once before, where we asked the question to a group of people, and then this was across the whole organization. So we, we ran a whole series of workshops across the whole organization. And each, each workshop had about 60, or 70 people in it. And we asked the question, we sit and we did a little section of feedback, we asked the question, can everyone put their hand up if they like, Rusty giving feedback? And I think there might have been, you know, maybe one or two hands every single time. So every single workshop, one or two hands went up, then we followed up with the question, how many of you like receiving feedback? And I think I'd say 90% of the hands went up every single time for every single workshop. So when we pose the question, we feel like receiving feedback so much. Why don't we give more of it, and we get become better skilled at providing feedback. When we know that everyone genuinely that's in the room, we know that genuinely everyone likes it. So it then goes into how do you build that skill set? Yeah. skill set of providing feedback and having these conversations is really important. What are some of the ways that you believe people can improve the skills? Like is there a framework that you follow? is a some sort of model that people can you know that is there a bouncing ball, do you do not promote the bouncing ball stuff,

Ally Nitschke:

I actually prefer a bouncy ball. So as you know, I like to wing it, I'm very much off the cuff type operator. But that doesn't work for everyone, like a lot of people do need some structure. So when it comes to feedback, and you're right, people love getting it. They don't really love giving it or they don't know how to give it and the same thing happens for help. You know, if someone asked you for help you would 100% help them. But how often do you actually ask for help yourself? What we would love to do for someone else? We don't do it for ourselves. So when it comes to feedback, I think it's really important to you know, check permission, depending on what your what your culture is within your workplace, but say, Hey, can I give you some feedback? Because perhaps, and and retirement really it's a thing for this as well, when you're giving the feedback. So say someone

Daniel Franco:

someone sets on fire do Yeah, yeah.

Ally Nitschke:

Say someone has done, you know, one of your team members have has worked really hard, they've presented something to the board. They were under a lot of pressure to do it, you knew that they were nervous that really leaning into that is comfort. And they did well but you've got some feedback to give them. Don't ask them as they're walking out of the room, if you can give them some feedback, because they're already well not disengaged. But you know, they've come off this high of doing something that was quite tricky. The time for feedback is not immediate, like you know, give them give them a day to download. So when it's high stakes situations where you want to give someone some feedback, probably give it a bit. But if it's feedback around something that you want, that's a repeated behavior, then ask permission, Hey, can I give you some feedback? Yes or no and then be like, Okay, what I saw so actually name it, what it was the behavior and what you liked about it, and the more specific that you can be the better so at the moment, we're all working from home and working remotely. So it's really hard to see behavior. But say you're, you get an email back or a paper back from one of your team. And it's really good or part of it is part of it is something that you like, be really isolating on that and say, I really liked this because of x, y, and Zed, and the more specific you can get. And on the receiving end, you're like, Okay, they like that. I'm gonna keep doing more of that.

Daniel Franco:

today. timing. I hadn't ever thought about how critical timing is, I think, I think it's one of those things that I've always just assumed. Now, I better not say anything right now. But I've never thought about it as a thing that time. Yeah. You touched on right now. Right? in the world that we live in? Yeah, that moment and COVID, the COVID world? How does how do we go about feedback in this world is zoom and appropriate, or zoom or teams and appropriate platform to provide feedback?

Ally Nitschke:

Yeah. So I think it's even more important that we're giving feedback to people via zoom. And I mean, there's not a lot of options at the moment. If you're social distancing, and you are working remotely, you know, there's not a whole lot of options, email, probably not great, particularly when everyone is on zoom, to providing feedback in a team environment, if it's something that needs improvement, probably also not a great option. But yeah, definitely on zoom, again, seek permission, book it in with your team and say, hey, look, I really want to give you some feedback on this last paper that you wrote, can we make a time and then actually go through it together in a collaborative way. So yeah, it is slightly different and not quite as instant. But the more that you can do face to face. So if you do a zoom video call, then that's perfect. If you can't video for whatever reason, pick up the phone and actually have a conversation so that you can recognize when someone's tone is changing, if there's any pauses, you know, if they've got any questions that they need to clarify as well. How critical is his communication in a world where we're probably more connected now than ever, but then again, more disconnected. And we are creating more stories in our head.

Daniel Franco:

This is hard one for me to explain, try to get it put it into words, but you look at someone, someone's profile on Facebook, or LinkedIn or whatever like that, and you make assumptions. And we're not, we shouldn't when we're not perfect, but we make assumptions. And we can probably get frustrated. So I have actually have a rule. I just hired everyone on Facebook. So I don't ever see anything can either get frustrated, right? Like it was a blanket rule that I made a long time ago. But there are lots of lots of problems that start by people's personal lives. And then people tell themselves stories. And therefore, there's never a clear line of communication between and how someone might feel. How do we become more comfortable with those topics? I guess, in a sense that we're mixing the the corporate world with the personal world?

Ally Nitschke:

Yeah, well, I mean, we've all got a choice, right? You need to be mostly an adult when we're talking about adults here. So what you put online is your business. If you don't want people to see it in your workplace that you're also friends with on Facebook, then don't put it on there. And if you need to have it that way, we're going with this sort of conversation. Yeah, okay, or the conversations we are having,

Daniel Franco:

it's more about, you start working with someone, you become quite close with them. And I would say nine times out of 10 people at each other on Facebook, if you're working in the same team problems can start from Facebook posts online. Without anything ever going wrong in work. It's just like are they always put food up? Or they always put posts of where they're all traveling near and then all of a sudden, these, this sort of resentment grows? And therefore, I don't know how do people overcome that, that sort of build up of knowledge? And how do they then give feedback according to something they shouldn't even really bother them?

Ally Nitschke:

Well, that is very good question. I actually haven't come across that. Issues stemming from social media around that type of thing. But again, we're in charge of what we consume. You don't like it? What you just said, You hide all people on Facebook. What do you do on Facebook? Okay,

Daniel Franco:

there are following news articles and, and leaders of the world and stuff like that I use it information source as opposed to people following

Ally Nitschke:

so you've made an active choice there not to subject yourself to that type of thing. We've all got a choice. Yeah,

Daniel Franco:

I think I went off on tangent a little bit. I think there was it was a team that I worked in once. And there was some Facebook stuff going on. It just created an absolute nightmare within the team. And the leader at the time, I wasn't a leader in the team and the leader at the time just didn't handle it very well. And I just thought it was a curious one because it's a personal platform. It's a free platform. It's a personal world mingling in with the corporate world. And it just didn't blend it did not blend. And yeah, I still to this day. I still to this day always thinking about that scenario because it's very toxic place. Yeah,

Ally Nitschke:

no, I haven't come across, haven't come across that but you know that it's probably likely that there'll be another wave of that, like, you know, social media site, especially now. And I think it's really important that we encourage appropriate use of it. And if you don't want your teams, if you're not friends, then don't be friends on Facebook, it doesn't you have a choice to accept or decline.

Daniel Franco:

What he says is,

Ally Nitschke:

we are all adults. But now I haven't come across that. But that is a really good point that you make, have to do some research, I think and come up with the courageous conversations when Facebook gets out of control.

Daniel Franco:

I think that's my point. You can't go to someone and say, Well, what are you putting on Facebook doesn't really appease me.

Ally Nitschke:

Then I've had instances. So this is back in the banking days as well, someone and she was quite new and quite young. She said with a[inaudible audio]. But she took a photo with herself in front of a safe that had money in it. Okay, totally inappropriate for the workplace. She thought it was like, you know, cool, really cool. But you know, I put my leadership hat on so have had had this conversation was like, you know, there's security risk, you do photos, you don't need to have your phone in the office and all these types of things. So

Daniel Franco:

yeah, that's an issue.

Unknown:

That was it was a big issue, really big problems got in quite a bit of

Daniel Franco:

stress about our surroundings. Actually, I went to a security. Nice there was a there was a cybersecurity nightmare hosting was actually it was a whiskey event with a with an element of cyber security. I mix the two whiskey and cyber whiskey and cyber was good night. And the guys were talking about cybersecurity guys got up and they gave a little presentation. And they said that a big problem in today's society. And we are digressing massively here, but a big problem in today's society is selfies, right? Yeah, people are posting selfies of themselves in front of their work, work life or hashtag work life or whatever. And they've got posted notes with passwords. In the background. Yeah. And so packers are getting into their systems and stuff like that. So as a leader, I guess way we can put this from conversations point of view. Yeah. You know, think about what you're putting up. And

Ally Nitschke:

well, I think that's probably an induction put down your induction appropriate, appropriate social media. Get Gabriella to run a session on social media use in the workplace. But yeah, those kinds of things. I mean, obviously, the the whiskey night that was disguised as a cybersecurity would be saying don't write your password down anyway. Also, don't put it on display. And then thirdly, don't take a photo of it. So yeah, there's there's definitely going to be some things that come out over time. And you know, you see it ends up hitting the media these days. Anyway, when people do stupid stuff.

Daniel Franco:

There's a lot of bravado, funny articles going around. So the importance, I think we all know the importance of courageous conversations, what happens to teams who don't have this type of environment, they don't have the value set built in that they can have these conversations.

Ally Nitschke:

Yeah, so what normally happens, and I call this the incubator of resentment, it's sort of a cycle that teams go through. So if we're not having regular feedback, as in open honest and frank conversations, and letting people know, when perhaps that nudging up against any of our boundaries, we don't have any of those conversations. And then something happens. And we don't say anything, and we go, I should have said something, but I haven't. And then it happens again, and then we can become acutely aware of it. So what we start looking for and what we start focusing on is the poor behavior, or you know, to be one particular person, and the classic example is of this is, you might have someone in your team that always leaves their coffee that just sit at myself always, that leaves their coffee cup in the sink, and you don't say anything to them. And the next day, you go in there, and it's two coffee cups and seeking the coffee cup. Yeah, it's just a coffee cup. We're not, we're not gonna make a big deal out of this, you know, whatever, I'll just wash it. You don't say anything to the person left it in there. And then the next day or the next week, you know, there's another coffee cup in there and you're like, you know what, Jane, who always leaves a coffee cup. Bloody Jane. She is really a bit of a grump and you start telling yourself these stories and she just thinks everyone's here to wash their dishes and she's like so lazy and she's already had you know we start getting all this judge stuff for years yeah and then we will pass Jane's desk where like you know what? chains got some crumbs on our desk. And then we go Jane is an absolute slob I can't imagine what our home life must be like she must be an absolute pigsty when we start doing all this stuff and then you know we'll go be in the kitchen one day with our colleagues in this morning Tina like have you guys noticed that Jane actually, she never washes her cups and she leaves crumbs everywhere and she's just a bit of a grub and then you know your friends that you talking to him morning tea be like, no I hadn't noticed but now they You've mentioned it, I'm going to keep an eye out, you don't notice or it and then you've got a little bit of a paucity happening and then they're starting to notice this poor behavior as well. Still no one said anything to Jane, Jane's got no idea. And this keeps happening and keeps happening and keeps happening. And then one day, you're having a morning tea half the team knows about Jane and a prolific cup, non washing activities. This of course, is thinks we'll have cups, this thing's full of cups. You've just had it like you know, you've had a bad morning with the kids. They've been slinkys you haven't found any shoes. Story of my life. I haven't found any shoes and Jane's come in. And not only she left her a cup in the sink, she's left the Tupperware in the fridge in your like for God's sakes, right? I'm gonna say something to Jane. So if you go to Jane, and you really let Jane have it and you're like, you know, we've washed our cups in here and you don't leave your Tupperware in the fridge and everything gets completely blown out of control. And on the receiving end, Jane's like, Whoa, let's just cool out jets a little where does this all come from? Because at no stage, has anyone talked to Jane? Yeah, around this time. So

Daniel Franco:

okay, build up in it.

Ally Nitschke:

Yeah, and you know, this could be I've used cups, which is one example. But it could be that someone cuts you off in a meeting all the time, or someone steals your ideas or pitches your ideas as their own or takes all of the credit for the work that you've done as a team or, you know, there's a whole bunch of little,

Daniel Franco:

I have this exact same scenario happened to me, Jane, not Jane, it was someone who constantly was a leader of a team that constantly referred to was I? I did this Yeah, the team? Yeah. One that I think is one that you can't be here quite a fair bit. Yeah. But if you knock it on the head straightaway, it goes away. And they're probably obviously I didn't even realize Yeah,

Ally Nitschke:

sorry. No, I didn't mean that at all. Yeah, it's definitely the awareness. And it is one of those things. And then when you start noticing it, and you tell someone, and then everyone starts noticing it, and all of a sudden, it's everywhere. Your Activation System kicks in Yeah,

Daniel Franco:

this person is a self absorbed,

Ally Nitschke:

yeah, I'm not going to, you know, work with them anymore. Because this person doesn't give me any credit. And they just think they're running the whole show. And don't they know how hard I work. And they weren't here until, you know, seven o'clock, or so the stories that we tell ourselves, and meanwhile, the leader who is I I just has no self awareness doesn't think that way at all. It's just a language loop that they've happened to themselves into. Yeah.

Daniel Franco:

Yeah. It's interesting, because you get it's so it's a real revelation for some of these people. They do get told I was that person. Oh, yeah. So just to throw a spanner in the works very early on in my career. I joined a team and, you know, up and coming on in a ponytail ambitious, forget the undercard, is that the alternative for the void? I was really, really ambitious. And I guess we're bringing in some new ways of thinking I came into a team that was sort of operating but still back in 1985. Right? It was it was a few years behind. And I thought I can introduce some new things here. And then I II. And it wasn't until one of the old fillers in the team. He just sort of threw it out. It was a throwaway comment, and he's the nicest guy in the world. It was a throwaway comment. He's like, and it's always I coming into your mouth. And then when I use it, now use No. And I did not even notice it. And I and now I'm one of those people that always, you know, pick up and provide or provide that feedback to others as well. Because it was such a moment for me to to actually realize, Oh, hang on. I can I can affect the way people think about me in this situation. So self awareness is also Yeah, a critical piece in all this as well.

Ally Nitschke:

And I imagine most people that you speak to that you pick that up with a mortified to hear that. That's what they're actually absolutely saying. Yeah, yeah.

Daniel Franco:

There is a time and a place. I have something you're proud of it. Yeah, I did this, but and if it's your own personal opinion, that's important that you don't have as a united front if you're going in as a united front. Yeah, I did this and the team did this.

Ally Nitschke:

Yeah. Yeah. If you happen to be the leader that's representing the team, then it's the team. And yeah.

Daniel Franco:

So is there a difference between feedback and courageous conversations?

Ally Nitschke:

Yeah, so feedback happens first, or should happen first. So feedback is sort of like the little things that you do. It shouldn't really be daily. If you're working, you know, working full time and working every day, feedback, some of that stuff that's just like on the regular off the calf. Here it is. Yep, that's, that's great. I really like how you did edited it. What do you know it'd be good for next time is if we did it at site, and then feedback has to be something that you can correct or improve or,

Daniel Franco:

okay, so that's the everyday conversation thing that we're talking about as well. Yeah, that opens the door to the more courageous.

Ally Nitschke:

Yeah, so courageous conversations is usually when there hasn't been any of that feedback, or there hasn't been any conversation prior. And this is performance management. Just compensation stuff where there hasn't been anything prior and the courageous conversation is like, okay, we're going to have a serious conversation about this a bit more structure. There's going to be some kind of resolution solution. Room. Yeah. gets

Daniel Franco:

more serious. So if you haven't if you give enough feedback consistently on a daily basis, yeah. can you avoid the

Ally Nitschke:

prevention? So incubator is admin thing? So it's prevention over cure? Yeah, well, so great. It's so good. I mean, if everyone could read Kim Scott's radical candor, she should definitely read that it would change the way that we communicate at work, come back to my mission peace, you know, if we can actually get a handle on the way that we communicate with people and get really comfortable being like, you know, what you did, they're not great, because you crossed a boundary, whether it was work boundary or personal boundary, and being really respectful to each other in a way that means that we're all trying to do the right thing, courageous conversations should be come less and less. in the workplace and lonely be if there's some kind of monumental stuff that a courageous conversation has to come into place. Or then we get the reverse side of the courageous conversations where it's like, well, things going really well. My next nervous thing that I need courage for is asking for a promotion, or my next nervous thing that I need courage for is to admit that I've made this huge mistake and how do I go about being an effective way?

Daniel Franco:

Yeah, my mind's going to a few books that I've read, and it's the Ray Dalio principles. Have you read that? No, we'll get onto that. It's a report write that down. Ray Dalio principles. So Ray Dalio is one of the owners of the founders of one of the largest hedge funds in the world, managing like a portfolio of 100 billion, if not more. It's a ridiculously large. And they use a term called radical transparency. Similar. Yeah, that's good. Similar to the radical candor, so they avoid the courageous conversations, because they use the radical candor approach, I guess, because they have the radical transparency. Yeah. Everything's on the table. From day one. Yeah. This is the way we operate. Yeah, it is an expectation that you will have these conversations should they arise is is an expectation that you will live to your own values that you live to the team's values, and you will, we will hold you accountable. If you do that becomes expectation and the transparencies on the is it's brilliant. To have forming culture rounds. Well, they can be nothing to one of the largest headphones. Yeah, yeah. And I said that. He said, that approach from the start. And the other one is creative Inc, which is one of Michelle Hollins favorite books she got me onto creative Inc, is the guys who created Pixar. Because she's got coaching coaching. So yeah, so creative Inc is the guys who created Pixar, and they talk about when creating when creating Toy Story is an example, in the in the book, that's brilliant for the Disney lovers, if you want to read creating Walt Disney, they're now Pixar. So the role was that when you delivered a product, and the product was the first cut of the movie, or of the of the animation, or the first cut of the white paper or whatever, whatever it might be delivering. You sit together in a room and you provide that open and honest feedback. And the person who's receiving that feedback needs to be aware that they might not like what they say yes. And that's the culture. Yes, the culture that they work in is that you may not like this feedback, but we're going to give it to you because this is what we need to do. And that's why they've got hit after hit after hit twice. So 123 inside out all these sort of incredible zombies. Yeah, inside out smartest cartoon I have ever seen.

Ally Nitschke:

So good. Isn't it's brilliant, and maybe fair for analysts listening. Yeah, Pixar movie around your feelings. And it's from a little girl's perspective, and yeah, feelings and the emotions a character's

Daniel Franco:

feelings. It's there's joy, sadness,

Ally Nitschke:

sadness, anger, disgust, and disgust. Yes. So funny. And memories. Yeah,

Daniel Franco:

it's a memory. Yeah. So this. So yeah, I think that so this whole culture of providing feedback, I guess, is where we're getting to here can completely remove the need for the really tough conversation. Obviously, there's always going to be the odd one here and there. But if we can create a culture of radical transparency, yeah, then and radical candor?

Ally Nitschke:

I think so. And, you know, there's that the quote around success leaves clues, right. So if we start looking at the businesses that I selling, and a lot of the methods Silicon Valley, you know, the Googles of the world, if you start looking into how they actually operate, it all comes down to the communication like they've got really clear open communication. Yes. Yeah, because they don't have time to get caught up in all of the formance management stuff and politics but also, they just Have the conversation and move on and move on.

Daniel Franco:

If you can have a tough conversation with one another with one particular leader in the world at the moment,

Ally Nitschke:

ah, I don't know where I'm gonna go with this.

Daniel Franco:

So well, let's talk about Donald Trump. Okay, that type of leader, the egotistical, self absorbed, whatever that type of leader. Yeah, I'm gonna go into the politics of it all. How do you approach someone like that? to have that conversation? is one my first question. My second question is, do you even bother?

Ally Nitschke:

Well, I mean, if they're not running a country, it's probably easier to approach it and have that conversation. So if you take like a head, say, you've got a CEO of a company who has Trump qualities, hopefully, they've got a board that can step in place and sort of say, Hey, here's a bit of a self reflection piece, we're getting this feedback. Hopefully, if they've been promoted to that kind of position, that they are getting 360 feedback from their peers, and then taking that on board. If they're not, and say you happen to be one of the exec directors or something like that, and you CEOs, behavior and attitude towards leadership needs to work, you're gonna need to have some tough conversations with them. And the thing with that is, yes, there's definitely going to be ego involved. You know, if we go back to Bernie Browns work, again, there's gonna be some shame shields. So more often than not people that are behaving in a way that and people know, you know, we know what a good leader is, we know at least you know, a handful of qualities. And if we're not doing those, and you're not self aware about it, but you're also probably hiding something. So there's probably a bit of shame work going on in there, they'd be the ego that's gotten into the way. So really having those conversations around what it is that you want to stand for, as a company, what you want to stand for, as a leader, how you want to be perceived that Yeah, it'll be a tough conversation should definitely call me now. But yeah, it's one of those ladies.

Daniel Franco:

But I think the the other thing is, though, at what point do you have that conversation without a leader? At what point? Do you stop banging your head against the wall, if things don't change, if you follow all the approaches that you need to processes and the bouncing balls, and then the asking for permission, you do all of that? Yeah. And nothing changes with your own leader, with the leader that you're reporting to you. Like, yeah, so General Manager reporting to CEO, whatever it might be?

Ally Nitschke:

Well, I think if you've exhausted all of the tools that you've got available to yourself to you, and you've exhausted all of the options that there are in terms of communication channels and trying to have the conversations, then I'd be having a real hard look at whether or not your values align with the company, and whether or not your self care and your own resilience is worth staying there, because it's going to be an uphill battle. And you know, when we know that there's this kind of turbulence and this kind of distrust within the the management team or the leadership team, you're not going to be feeling great, you're going to be going home feeling stressed all the time, there's going to be a lot of stories that you're telling yourself, as well. cut ties, you know, you can't you can't change everyone, what you can do is change the own situations that you're in. And if it means that you are in a situation where you're having to deal with someone who's not great, and you've tried, and you've tried and you've tried, you're in control of the choices you make.

Daniel Franco:

Yeah, I mean, that's critical. Most people, a lot of people are not true to their own values. In a situation like that, because things like money, mortgage, kids school, all that sort of stuff comes into play.

Ally Nitschke:

But you know what's really interesting just on that, so I asked my community just last week around what their measures of success were. And perhaps this is a little bit different, because we're right in the midst of COVID. And everyone's sort of coming out of lock lockdown, particularly here in Adelaide. But overwhelmingly, and I got a massive response from what people use as their measures of success is being able to practice peacefulness, going home to a family that I love, having quality time having a support system around me having something that's outside of the workplace, we're all people's measures of success, there was very few people that measured their success through work. So whether there's been a shift, and I suspect there is I'm still doing some, some work on that. But I think we're becoming more and more aware of what it is that actually makes up life. And it's not going to work every day banging your head on a wall, trying to do the best that you can with what you've got and not getting any

Daniel Franco:

correct. What's a look at successes, almost like a pie chart. Yeah, there's just different elements. Yeah, assessing how fulfilled you are in each of those segments. The Wheel of Life, right? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So one last question before we get into my favorite Rapid Fire question. The takeaway for anyone listening to this podcast? Yeah, what's one bouncing ball method. We've used something like before, before we before you know it's not bring back the beef. It's sort of behavior impact. Yeah. feelings and future like, Yeah, what is the behavior? What is the impact your feelings? How it made you feel? And what how we can change in the future? What

Ally Nitschke:

do you tend to use the courageous conversation? So I go get your stories, we'll find your facts. First, like gather what it is, you know, the whole? Is that true question. So some self coaching questions around there, getting your story straight in your head. begin with the end in mind. So where are you actually taking this conversation? What do you want the outcome to be? And then you actually need to plan so if you're having a courageous conversations, you do actually need to have a bit of work that goes into it. So planning what you're going to say, Hey, you know, presented where you want to lead someone, and then go for it, you know, courageous conversations, they're not always going to feel comfortable, but you are going to get better at them and recognizing that the uncomfortableness is beta happens just before you get to the good stuff. And then being able to lean into that.

Daniel Franco:

Beautiful, alright, rapid fire questions. And I say these ones, I try to keep them rapid fire, but they are less rapid. We end up talking, we talk about books, right? And I'll just talk for an hour or so. We're already up to now. We are okay, so favorite book on courageous conversations. This is specific question was favorite book?

Ally Nitschke:

Do you know it is actually radical candor? Yes, it has no copy of it. I love radical candor. And it's one of those things that I think whoops, we're talking about it again, one of those things, you know, success is showing up in ways that you know, wherever it is, it's clues. Yeah, so Kim Scott's got like a plethora of success at successful trail and it's all come down to she's breaking down this method of radical candor, open honest and frank conversations.

Daniel Franco:

Yes. Perfect. So what's one other than Okay, other than Brene's stuff, the digital age, and Kim's radical candor? What's one book that you have recommended to more people?

Ally Nitschke:

Well, it's actually one that I'm reading at the moment and I'm not reading it. It's an audible and he is called the secret code of success by Noah St. JOHN, I think you'd really like it

Daniel Franco:

actually secret of success,

Ally Nitschke:

success, and it is around surrounding yourself with reflective friendly mirrors in terms of getting to your true authenticity or your authentic self when there's not any one else's opinions or I guess anything else getting in the way. It's really

Daniel Franco:

like a boosted product. Is that the angle on it? Oh, no,

Ally Nitschke:

no, it's around self reflection. Worth and just getting like deep, you know, like I say leadership's in inside out jobs. So it's really getting to the crux of you know who you are at your most cool. It's good.

Daniel Franco:

If you could have one superpower, what would it be teleportation? Oh, hang on more or less? I'm gonna write that teleportation. I've wanted to teleport for years. would travel be right now for me? Not so much. Yeah. How much time we saving? Not commuting. So it is a superpower. Why don't know anyone can do it. Do you know but superpower safe people? This just helps you get a vision Do we? Yeah. feels kind of cool. Yes. teleportation. Yeah. Well, I believe fighter in any teleport. Yeah. Anyway. The next man then it's definitely Yeah. He's like a beast. He's a beast. I someone anyway, what's one of the things that most of the ways you? Oh, the question people chewing with their mouth open with chewing gum or in general, just in general. You've always been very good. And my favorite question. What is your favorite bad joke? Knock knock. Who's there? boo. Boo who. No need to cry. It's horrible. My kids use that. Why don't you that was coming. Fantastic. Thank you very much, Ally. You have been amazing to chat. Thank you. Thanks for having me. It's been great. Not a problem at all. Le neitzke. Where do we find you?

Ally Nitschke:

I hang out on LinkedIn. So you can find me on LinkedIn or Facebook on my website.

Daniel Franco:

Excellent. Your website made for more.com.au Perfect. Thank you very much. This is creating synergy signing out. Cheers.

Synergy IQ:

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